The default Wasabi Wallet coordinator will start censoring "illegal" UTXOs

[nopara73]

Yes, because it's a scam. No privacy, just marketing. Whirlpool is not on the same level. Unlike Wasabi or JoinMarket, it isn't trustless. Using them you trust a third party with your privacy.

I never said it's a scam, for saying that you would need to show some proof, and I didn't hear a single case of anyone in forum getting scammed by using Samourai wallet.
Should I also consider Wasabi wallet to be a scam just because it's ignoring to mix some coins?

This is a fundamental privacy leak, which just makes the two wallet not even comparable. However the problems did not end here, I think they can be deanonymized by other means, too, but any discussion comparing the two should.

I never uses Samourai, and I know they have some privacy issues, but at least they are not blocking any addresses from mixing.
Attacking each other in current situation is just waste of time in my opinion.

I didn't mean to put words into your mouth, sorry. I claimed Samourai is a scam, and explained the reason why: it markets itself as a privacy wallet while it has very bad privacy. People who use it are promised privacy, but they don't get it. Samourai users are the victims of the Samourai scam. In contrast, zkSNACKs is not lying about its blacklisting. No dishonesty there, therefore the definition as a scam does not apply. I'm sorry, if you feel this to be an attack, these are factual statements. The truth about Samouarai is so disturbing that I'm not sure how to put things more mildly.

If you don't believe me or don't get it, you can check out how Gregory Maxwell (inventor of coinjoin) and Chris Belcher (inventor of JoinMarket) put it:

- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg51128834#msg51128834
- https://mobile.twitter.com/chris_belcher_/status/1345176372474425348
- https://mobile.twitter.com/chris_belcher_/status/1345176039874564097

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[dkbit98]

I didn't mean to put words into your mouth, sorry. I claimed Samourai is a scam, and explained the reason why: it markets itself as a privacy wallet while it has very bad privacy. People who use it are promised privacy, but they don't get it. Samourai users are the victims of the Samourai scam. In contrast, zkSNACKs is not lying about its blacklisting. No dishonesty there, therefore the definition as a scam does not apply. I'm sorry, if you feel this to be an attack, these are factual statements. The truth about Samouarai is so disturbing that I'm not sure how to put things more mildly.

Please go ahead and create scam accusation topic in forum about Samourai wallet and post all evidence you gathered how exactly they scam people, than I will review everything.
If I remember correctly zkSNACKs promised privacy and it was proven earlier that it is possible to de-anonymize transactions and identify addresses and people who used Wasabi wallet, now they are blocking addresses and transactions, I wonder what's next.
And yet, you don't see me saying that Wasabi wallet is a scam...

If you don't believe me or don't get it, you can check out how Gregory Maxwell (inventor of coinjoin) and Chris Belcher (inventor of JoinMarket) put it:

I know that Gregory Maxwell and Chris Belcher don't like Samourai wallet, but I don't see them running around shouting SCAM all over the forum.
I am not defending Samourai wallet at all and the may be dishonest, but please stop acting like a child with this anti-advertisement.
Cheers.

[pooya87]

In contrast, zkSNACKs is not lying about its blacklisting. No dishonesty there, therefore the definition as a scam does not apply.

You are showing a middle finger to bitcoin's fungibility as a privacy providing tool and are censoring people selectively and you are saying there is no dishonesty there just because you announced what you were doing? What other choice you had? You couldn't hide the censorship, people would have said something on the internet about how their coins are being blocked by your tool.

You can't seriously claim having any shred of honesty here. Not to mention that whoever is pressuring you to enforce the censorship is surely pressuring you to do a lot more.

[Pmalek]

I claimed Samourai is a scam, and explained the reason why: it markets itself as a privacy wallet while it has very bad privacy. People who use it are promised privacy, but they don't get it.

And Wasabi was supposed to be a privacy solution as well, but it has very bad privacy because of your new collaborations with whoever pays more to deanonymize users.

Samourai users are the victims of the Samourai scam.

And Wasabi users are the victims of censorship, Wasabi taint scam, and being offered a partnership with blockchain analysis companies deanonymizing those who seek anonymity. You announcing it or not doesn't change what you and your new business partners are doing. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

I am not defending Samourai wallet at all and the may be dishonest, but please stop acting like a child with this anti-advertisement.

It's just non stop whataboutism. Repeatedly fails to address any of the very valid and very concerning issues being raised about Wasabi, and just attacks Samourai instead.

Not to mention that whoever is pressuring you to enforce the censorship is surely pressuring you to do a lot more.

Either they are doing it because they are being pressured to (and will therefore do much worse in the future), or they are doing it of their own free will because they don't care about you or your privacy at all and just want to make profits from institutional investors, as explained here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389567.msg59996771#msg59996771. I'm not sure which is worse, but either reason means nobody should be using Wasabi anymore.

[n0nce]

I claimed Samourai is a scam, and explained the reason why: it markets itself as a privacy wallet while it has very bad privacy. People who use it are promised privacy, but they don't get it. Samourai users are the victims of the Samourai scam. In contrast, zkSNACKs is not lying about its blacklisting. No dishonesty there, therefore the definition as a scam does not apply.

I agree with the sentiment that Samourai is very misleading in that at first sight it appears you get anonymous mixing with or without full node, but then it turns out that if you don't run one, you lose all privacy by doing one of the worst things you could do; leaking your xpub.

Sure, zkSNACKs openly confesses to blacklist, but it also still claims to be a privacy wallet. While working with chainalysis. How doesn't this immediately sound like an oxymoron?

I wouldn't say either of them are a 'scam' in that they don't steal your money, but Wasabi sends your information to Chainalysis and Samourai deanonymizes you if you don't buy their node, so they're both going against their main proposed selling point (privacy) in a rather similar way. You could argue that Samourai holds the xpubs themselves, while you guys pass the info further right away, however I don't trust Samourai to be government- and three-letter-agency-secure if they come knocking at their door.

[witcher_sense]

I agree with the sentiment that Samourai is very misleading in that at first sight it appears you get anonymous mixing with or without full node, but then it turns out that if you don't run one, you lose all privacy by doing one of the worst things you could do; leaking your xpub.

Sure, zkSNACKs openly confesses to blacklist, but it also still claims to be a privacy wallet. While working with chainalysis. How doesn't this immediately sound like an oxymoron?

I wouldn't say either of them are a 'scam' in that they don't steal your money, but Wasabi sends your information to Chainalysis and Samourai deanonymizes you if you don't buy their node, so they're both going against their main proposed selling point (privacy) in a rather similar way. You could argue that Samourai holds the xpubs themselves, while you guys pass the info further right away, however I don't trust Samourai to be government- and three-letter-agency-secure if they come knocking at their door.

As long as Samourai devs remain anonymous, they can afford not to collaborate with three-letter agencies or chain surveillance companies. But once (not if) they get deanonymized, they will have no choice but to hand over to governments every piece of information they have collected about their users over the years of Whirlpool operation, including xpubs, pre-mix, and post-mix addresses. Law enforcement agencies already know which transactions were coming from Whirlpool and at which point in time they were made. They will come to Samourai devs and force them to disclose additional information about particular addresses. If they refuse to provide information and cooperate with whoever comes to them, they may find themselves in jail and be accused of facilitating money laundering and other illegal activities. Of course, they will collaborate and start secretly surveilling the users of Whirlpool reporting users' activity to agencies. Maybe they already do. All this will happen because everyone, including governments, is already aware of Samourai capability to collect such information, and this is why they will demand it from them eventually.

[n0nce]

I just realized that the forum's recommendation for Bitcoin privacy is usage of Wasabi.

Retention

|	Thing	|	Retention	|	Possible user actions to maximize privacy	|
|	Payment info such as Bitcoin addresses	|	Indefinite	|	Use private payment technology such as the Wasabi wallet	|

@theymos can we get this removed after the Wasabi x Chainalysis Edit: undisclosed blockchain analysis company collaborationdebacle?
I guess linking to a page that explains the general concept of CoinJoin could make more sense than basically advertising for the private company https://zksnacks.com/.

[NotATether]

@theymos can we get this removed after the Wasabi x Chainalysis collaborationdebacle?

In all fairness though, the Wasabi CEO said they are not getting data from Chainalysis but from another blockchain analysis company.
It doesn't change anything about them buying UTXO data for blacklisting in the first place, but lets get our facts straight.