[RESOLVED] Trust abuse

[yogg]

Hello folks,

I would never believe that I would witness such ignorance, resulting in multiple risks for bitcointalk users and several blatant DT abuses from a DT1 member.

This screams to me that not matter how hard you built your trust, if you don’t know such basic inner workings of this forum, you don’t belong on this end of the DT ladder as you can inadvertently do more harm than good.
If you do know how things work down here and did it knowingly, then it’s even worse.

krogothmanhattan (DT1) has an alt account, krogoth (DT2 ).

I’ll refer to the user behind both profiles as “krog”


1/ Default Trust abuse

krog is abusing the Trust system.
Main account is in DT1 and the other in DT2, user ends up with “2 inclusion votes” for the Trust system.
This is unfair towards the rest of the forum users.


(https://loyce.club/trust/2022-03-19_Sat_05.10h/181253.html)


(https://loyce.club/trust/2022-03-19_Sat_05.10h/1000199.html)

What’s the reasoning behind giving a Trust inclusion to his alt from his main, and another Trust inclusion to his main from his alt ?
Both accounts are currently in DT… Wonderful Can I do that as well ?  

krog is also abusing the feedback system as he left himself a positive feedback from his DT1 account to his alt.
This results in an artificially pumped feedback score on his alt account.


(https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=181253)

WHY does krog intentionally make his ALT account look more trusted than it is ? ? ?
This feedback should have been neutral like johnyUA’s one.

Doing so defies the purpose of using an alt as this alt is used for trading purposes.
In this situation, If the alt account is compromised because the user logged in from a compromised network/device (which is the “purpose” of an alt really);
it is nearly as bad as if the main account was compromised.

If you are a “trusted” user around here, what is the purpose of using an alt account on Bitcointalk ?
Well it’s to mitigate the risk of other users getting scammed by your negligence when you’re about to login on a compromised network/device.

krog, care to explain your thought process ?
You should have already taken the steps so your alt does not end up in DT2.


2/ Using both accounts to Trust exclude a single user

Well, this speaks of itself :




I’m at a loss of words.

Can I do that as well ?


I believe that krog is dangerous as he puts other’s people funds at risk, demonstrating his nonchalance towards DT / taking steps so his alt account created “FOR UNSECURE CONNECTIONS” is DT2 )


I do not understand what have I done to deserve such treatment from this user.

After seeing several demonstrations from this user, it is quite obvious that not only would I not trust them, I also tend to seek to prevent other users from possibly losing their BTC.

I mean, he is more than trustworthy when it comes to buying or selling an item, or even escrowing funds for other users, but this is not what my point is about.

Thank you everyone.

[Poker Player]

I have been reading carefully and I think we are going to have a bit of drama, because although I think you raise valid points, he has a previous great reputation and I guess he will defend himself.

I think that in principle it is not right to leave positive feedback or include your alt in your trust list. I have remembered that LoyceV has an alt and he has neither left positive feedback (only neutral to reflect that it is his alt) nor has he included it in his trust list.

And apart from what LoyceV does, which as much as he knows he could be wrong, the inclusion of your alt, and thus being able to vote double and being able to leave double feedback that is reflected, being you a single person, does not seem right to me. If so, where would be the limit?

[mindrust]

BOOO How could you create an alt account and boost yourself mate? That's pretty scummy at best. Shame on you man. I think DT people should be more careful when they are adding people to their trust lists.

Not cool. Not cool at all.

[Steamtyme]

I think that in principle it is not right to leave positive feedback or include your alt in your trust list. I have remembered that LoyceV has an alt and he has neither left positive feedback (only neutral to reflect that it is his alt) nor has he included it in his trust list.

Neutral feedback should be the standard for any and all alts. It's visible enough to get the point across. The use of an alt to keep the main account secure is nothing new, people get tripped up on how to treat the account is the problem.

It does open the door for potential abuses or a greater voting power, if you originally had th ereputation and trust to grow it. I doubt this was the intent, but I remember a few people in the past running into the same issue. Moving forward any and all known alts, could be added to th eblacklist that was running- not sure how often it's updated. Individual DT users can exclude the alt on their own, which should easily enough remove it from DT.

The rest is unfortunarte to see another relationship deteriorate on the forum. It's personal/business and I think this summed it up for Yogg fairly well.

After seeing several demonstrations from this user, it is quite obvious that not only would I not trust them, I also tend to seek to prevent other users from possibly losing their BTC.

I mean, he is more than trustworthy when it comes to buying or selling an item, or even escrowing funds for other users, but this is not what my point is about.

Thank you everyone.

Hard to put into feedback but looks neutral overall.

Edit: Yogg, I don't believe the negative is warranted on the Krogg account as written. That would be best suited to a neutral given the comment isn't related to how you feel they handle trades.

[yogg]

Edit: Yogg, I don't believe the negative is warranted on the Krogg account as written. That would be best suited to a neutral given the comment isn't related to how you feel they handle trades.

I hear your point.

My red will stay for now until krog addresses the situation AND rectifies his double Trust exclusion towards me.

Afterwards, given the general consensus, I might reconsider my trust feedback.


EDIT :

In fact, I have a more straightforward question :

What did I do to deserve being excluded twice from DT by krog ?




This is trust abuse. I mean, what have I done ?
Can I make up for what I supposedly did ?

What is the reason for this ? (What is the REAL reason for this ? .. )

I'm the ONLY forum user excluded by that dude, but I'm excluded twice.
B*tch I'm fabulous

[yogg_alt]

I have remembered that LoyceV has an alt and he has neither left positive feedback (only neutral to reflect that it is his alt) nor has he included it in his trust list.

Well, this is actually pretty common practice and not complicated at all.
I never included my alt anywhere with the help of my main account.
Just look at my alt's trust.

Except, to know that, you have to be accustomed with how the forum functions.
krog can have all the trust feedbacks he deserves and wants, but my opinion is that neither his main or alt belongs in DT.

(got to switch to microsoft OS.. hence why I use my alt I do use my main only on very specific setups ....)

[examplens]

Edit: Yogg, I don't believe the negative is warranted on the Krogg account as written. That would be best suited to a neutral given the comment isn't related to how you feel they handle trades.

I hear your point.

My red will stay for now until krog addresses the situation AND rectifies his double Trust exclusion towards me.

I would say the negative by yogg is correct at the moment, this is certainly a kind of violation of the rules. as one of the older users, he ^krogoth should definitely know that such things can be considered as trust abuse.
I believe there is a reasonable explanation and this will be rectified.

btw. yogg, whether you removed both of his accounts from your Distrust list before or after this research?

[yogg_alt]

btw. yogg, whether you removed both of his accounts from your Distrust list before or after this research?

Well, what happened is that I had both there in ~ for a long time.

At some point recently, I mistakenly removed both accounts from my distrust list.
Don't ask how it happened lol but I believe I added both back there.

LoyceV's datascrape must have happened around the same time.

[yogg]

one of the older users, he ^krogoth should definitely know that such things can be considered as trust abuse.
I believe there is a reasonable explanation and this will be rectified.

I would put my money on something slightly different, but yes let's wait for krog's explanation

my way of seeing this :

he ^krogoth did over 300 free raffles where the prize was a $1 cheap fake bitcoin shaped coin.
he organized the shipping directly to the winner from alibaba or banggood .. I know I got one at some point !

many people left him trust feedbacks, even more so as this is something he suggests / requests by PM quite often.
(i must be stoopid, i never asked anybody for a trust feedback )



(why would someone leave a positive trust feedback as krog was the buyer ? in the screen above, I risked nothing to krog)

At that time those didn't mean very much, as DT1 was fixed and clogged, DT2 was changing a little depending on the mood of the old DT1 clique, and that's it.
The Trust feedback was not irrelevant, but didn't do much to help the forum really..


Then, theymos changed the way DT worked :

For years I've been unhappy with how DefaultTrust ended up as a centralized and largely-untouchable authority, but I was reluctant to change it because the alternatives seemed too messy. However, I've finally decided to try some changes, and we'll see how it works.

This change happened in 2019, leaving krog almost 2 years to farm trust with $1 raffles.
Obviously, when the update happened, dude got among the top

I guess it takes some time to spot the bad apples ...

[krogothmanhattan]

  Why dont you vanish for a couple of months like you did without responding to anyone...with my money as well? And when asked to get money back you hurle insults and threats. I have all the PMs as well. But you aint worth my time in posting on this silly bratty thread.

   Very manly of you to do that from behind a computer.

   And yet here you are back creating issues like the person you really are when there are no issues just because you are the Vanishing Yogg that we all know you are. Look at all your negative feedback from others...that speaks for itself.

   I aint going to waste my time with you so go back to the little cave you crawled out from and stay there....the forum was a better place without you in the past year.

   I really feel sorry about your depression, but your attacks cause of your jealosy are pathetic. Sendiing tracking numbers when no items were sent.  

   Leave all the negative you feel I deserve, get a life as well and pray you and I will never meet.

   My reputation speaks for itself and so does my feedback.  

   And do stop PMing me with new accounts about any new threads you create...you are on my ignore list just like many other have had due to your Gone Yogg reputation that can't handle real life issues.
  

[yogg]

  Why dont you vanish for a couple of months like you did without responding to anyone...with my money as well? And when asked to get money back you hurle insults and threats. I have all the PMs as well. But you aint worth my time in posting on this silly bratty thread.

   Very manly of you to do that from behind a computer.

   And yet here you are back creating issues like the person you really are when there are no issues just because you are the Vanishing Yogg that we all know you are. Look at all your negative feedback from others...that speaks for itself.

   I aint going to waste my time with you so go back to the little cave you crawled out from and stay there....the forum was a better place without you in the past year.

   I really feel sorry about your depression, but your attacks cause of your jealosy are pathetic. Sendiing tracking numbers when no items were sent. 

   Leave all the negative you feel I deserve, get a life as well and pray you and I will never meet.

   My reputation speaks for itself and so does my feedback. 

   And do stop PMing me with new accounts about any new threads you create...you are on my ignore list just like many other have had due to your Gone Yogg reputation that can't handle real life issues.

What does this all have to do with abusing the Default Trust and excluding me twice from DT ?

Also, you resort to real life violence threats

get a life as well and pray you and I will never meet.

with my money as well?

Care to elaborate ?

Look at all your negative feedback from others...that speaks for itself.

What negative feedback ?

your attacks cause of your jealosy are pathetic.

What on earth would I be jealous of ?
Lol why would I be jealous of something I gave you ?


In the end, are you going to stop trust abusing me because your alt is DT2 ?

Leave all the negative you feel I deserve

Do you even know how this whole thing works ?
Hey buddy, just FYI this is how your feedbacks looks to everybody without a custom trust list :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=1000199:dt

And ... just so you see how it is through people's eyes, here's how my profile looks :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=140827;dt

So, what negative feedbacks ?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[yogg_alt]

(@mods sorry for consecutive posts ... i switch from OS to OS and can't edit )

there are no issues

how there are no issues ?
you cheat the forum rules and have 2 accounts in DT, and use both to exclude me ?

how is that not an issue ??


you did not address any of the points brought up

[suchmoon]

And yet here you are back creating issues like the person you really are when there are no issues just because you are the Vanishing Yogg that we all know you are. Look at all your negative feedback from others...that speaks for itself.

I don't know what happened between you two, but I don't see "all [yogg's] negative feedback from others". There isn't anything particularly negative in his trust ratings except a few idiots. If you have a trade issue, create a flag, provide evidence, and ask to support the flag, instead of abusing the trust system with sockpuppet inclusions/exclusions.

Edit: grammar.

[yogg_alt]

My reputation speaks for itself and so does my feedback.  

So.. are you saying that you are above forum rules and can abuse the trust system freely ?

[Timelord2067]

This isn't the first time two alts with DT1/DT2 power has been used to target one user in the past.  This is what @LoyceV had to say on a previous occasion:

I noticed the negative feedback from 2 DT-accounts yesterday. I don't think I've seen something like this before, and I don't think this is how the Trust system is supposed to be used. One person should not give someone positive or negative feedback from more than one account, as it leads to 2 positive or -2 negative on the user's profile.
A simple solution would be if hilariousandco uses hilariousetc for all feedbacks on your account.

In your instance the user and their alt have gone one step further with DT trust abuse.  I already have ~krogoth for many months now (although off the top of my head I can't recall what that was over), but I haven't ~krogothmanhattan as yet.  (In saying that, their response to you in this thread was fairly piss poor)...

Can I just ask why in the last week this occurred:

Week 166.

https://loyce.club/trust/2022-03-19_Sat_05.10h/140827.html

Trust list for: yogg (Trust: +31 / =0 / -0) (1922 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP) (created 2022-03-19_Sat_05.10h)
Back to index

yogg Distrusts these users' judgement:

6. Removed ~krogoth (Trust: +7 / =0 / -0) (118 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

17. Removed ~krogothmanhattan (Trust: +82 / =1 / -0) (DT1! (16) 1900 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)

You've removed your distrust *and*then* started a thread about their distrust - have you reapplied your distrust of them?

[yogg_alt]

You've removed your distrust *and*then* started a thread about their distrust - have you reapplied your distrust of them?

I am going to clarify this once and for all.

This user contributed big times to my mental health deterioration last year, and he is still not done bullying me.

I use some plugin to replace words with other words in my browser, as just reading "krog" or "krogoth" was triggering anxiety. (i's disabled right now obviously ..)

Last day, I checked the trust list and forgot about the char substitution.
The nicknames ended up being not existent, hence removed from trust list.

Once I noticed it, I included back both users straight away.

[Timelord2067]

Hang in there @yogg - don't ever let this place get the better of you.

[yogg_alt]

Hang in there @yogg - don't ever let this place get the better of you.

Thank you Timelord <3
Appreciate your kind words.

Yes, I'm lucky to team up with owlcatz now, to bring my project Coldkey further to the next level, his help kinda shields me away from what this place can do to you.

However last year .... let's say I'm über pumped to still be there, and do something I love to do.

During my time away, this happened : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5358870.0
It really touched me, I wasn't aware of this thread for some time, and owlcatz mentioned it to me when we were on the phone. (He's the ONLY person from bitcointalk I kept in touch with during these tough times...)

Now I'm doing much better. Initially I just wanted to sort out the double trust exclusion, but heh, krog shown his true self and well this is pretty much it...


I regret every second I spent teaching BTC tech stuff to that guy.

What ever happened to :

  Thankyou Yogg for showing me the path to enlightenment!

What did I do to deserve this treatment from him ?

When we fell out, I told him he is a liar, and he abides by double standards. Well, seems I'm not quite wrong ....

[dkbit98]

If you guys can't resolve your personal issues than just ignore each other, and create new topic if someone is holding money from other person, don't just make some wage comment without proof.
It's not forbidden to use altaccounts in bitcointalk forum but messing around with DT system to exclude or include anyone with your accounts is not cool.
I would not give anyone negative feedback for this, but owner self declared that he controls both account so it would be good to exclude his second account from ~DT.

[MoparMiningLLC]

From my viewpoint - I like both yogg and krog and it saddens me to see such strife between the two.

But no alt should be used to garner merit or trust or be used to exclude or even include anyone into a trust list.

To do so is an abuse - was it intentional? I dont know, but once identified, it should be corrected.