Making Bitcoin and its Forks Turing Complete

[Merkle Token Inc.]

No its not a scam like the folks at r/bitcoin thought and banned me. lol Yes we are using a token to raise funds to develop and build a community around the idea. This is needed when you build decentralized systems. There are no profits to be made in the center of such systems. There needs to be a way to fund this project so we chose that route. Merkle Token inc. is registered in the state of South Dakota. Feel free to look us up in the state's business search. Our goal at Merkle is to educate the community about how decentralized internet/data storage is happening now and how it works.
See the research paper on our website from Augustana college on how P2SH is used for data insertion into bitcoin block chain and others. Just scroll to the bottom of this page: https://merkleweb3.com/whitepaper

The protocol we are helping to deliver can make any BTC fork turing complete...Not April Fools..

here is a turing machine on bitcoin testnet http://bitfossil.com/133f45cce88ab2d0ded541c60e7785aa4260b6df5982e8bb2fbbf1e19f9f9bdd/index.html

Yes that website is poor but its simply a hosted index of decentralized data. The user interface we are building with nonprofits will be the portal to this new internet experience. Feel free to ask questions. Im not a programmer i am the President of Merkle Token Inc. So i will be relaying technical information and it may take me time to get answers from the programmers but I will get them for you.

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[1715660608]

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[Merkle Token Inc.]

Using the 0.16.3

[gmaxwell]

Bitcoin script is purposefully not turing complete-- it's not an accident, in fact it's extremely easy to be accidentally turing complete.  Turing completeness provides no value for this application and creates additional risks.  Helping someone make a bitcoin clone turing complete is like 'helping' them have an infinite coin supply.

There are plenty of limitation in script that are make it less useful, but lack of turing completeness in the script language is not among them.

[n0nce]

Bitcoin script is purposefully not turing complete-- it's not an accident, in fact it's extremely easy to be accidentally turing complete.  Turing completeness provides no value for this application and creates additional risks.  Helping someone make a bitcoin clone turing complete is like 'helping' them have an infinite coin supply.

There are plenty of limitation in script that are make it less useful, but lack of turing completeness in the script language is not among them.

This has always been my impression, as well. And as we've seen in the past, opcodes have even been disabled to increase security since they weren't completely secure.

There are some words which existed in very early versions of Bitcoin but were removed out of concern that the client might have a bug in their implementation.

To further quote the Bitcoin Wiki, functionality can also always be added if really needed, through OP_NOPx.

New opcodes can be added by means of a carefully designed and executed softfork using OP_NOP1-OP_NOP10.

So I think we've got the mechanisms that Bitcoin needs, already in place.

It's almost as if most of the 'Ethereum hacks' were actually hacks of badly written programs ('contracts') in their (supposedly) Turing-complete programming language.

[embii]

Bitcoin script is purposefully not turing complete-- it's not an accident, in fact it's extremely easy to be accidentally turing complete.  Turing completeness provides no value for this application and creates additional risks.  Helping someone make a bitcoin clone turing complete is like 'helping' them have an infinite coin supply.

There are plenty of limitation in script that are make it less useful, but lack of turing completeness in the script language is not among them.

it is purposefully permissionless.  nothing prevents me from making bitcoin turing complete.

#nothing, it has been since 2014

consider playing some #bitcoin bong ball while you think about it... 

http://bitfossil.com/743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46/bong-ball.html

<3 #embii

[garlonicon]

functionality can also always be added if really needed, through OP_NOPx

It is even better than that: they can be added in a TapScript, just by replacing OP_SUCCESS. Then, you will have them in the same position. And I guess that opcodes like OP_SUBSTR or OP_CAT could be activated, because they seems to be useful in some protocols.

nothing prevents me from making bitcoin turing complete

Using OP_RETURN to push data on bitcoin and getting Turing completeness outside is a different thing that making Bitcoin Turing complete by itself.

[tromp]

Helping someone make a bitcoin clone turing complete is like 'helping' them have an infinite coin supply.

Do you mean an uncapped supply?
If so, that's not the best example; since a tail emission can be quite useful [1] [2].
I agree that soft total supply should be capped.

[1] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a188d153
[2] https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

[embii]

functionality can also always be added if really needed, through OP_NOPx

It is even better than that: they can be added in a TapScript, just by replacing OP_SUCCESS. Then, you will have them in the same position. And I guess that opcodes like OP_SUBSTR or OP_CAT could be activated, because they seems to be useful in some protocols.

nothing prevents me from making bitcoin turing complete

Using OP_RETURN to push data on bitcoin and getting Turing completeness outside is a different thing that making Bitcoin Turing complete by itself.

#true

apertus.io is the special sauce that allows bitcoin and many altcoins to be part of a decentralized global turing machine that runs by trust alone.  no gas required

<3 #embii

[garlonicon]

Do you mean an uncapped supply?

It can be done in a soft-fork way by adding zero satoshis, but it will make things worse.

since a tail emission can be quite useful

I guess Bitcoin will rather die than increase this 21 million coin limit. The only change that should be done to the supply is increasing coin precision and introducing millisatoshis or smaller units on-chain when needed. I think we will never have more coins than 21 million, if anything, maybe we could have infinite halvings to get closer to that value, but I doubt it.

[ABCbits]

Since no one mentioned it yet, i'd like to mention that Rootstock (RSK) exist. It's Bitcoin sidechain which support smart contract with merged mining to Bitcoin network.

it is purposefully permissionless.  nothing prevents me from making bitcoin turing complete.

#nothing, it has been since 2014

consider playing some #bitcoin bong ball while you think about it... 

http://bitfossil.com/743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46/bong-ball.html

<3 #embii

Technically you don't make Bitcoin turing complete. Did you actually put some source code on Bitcoin blockchain by splitting it every 20 bytes on each address and create website to parse the transaction and compile/run the source code?

[Merkle Token Inc.]

Apertus is not a chain or a clone it is a protocol/machine that allows the chains to be used in a way that makes them turing complete. Decentralized Etherium. Glad to see you here EMBII.

[embii]

Since no one mentioned it yet, i'd like to mention that Rootstock (RSK) exist. It's Bitcoin sidechain which support smart contract with merged mining to Bitcoin network.

it is purposefully permissionless.  nothing prevents me from making bitcoin turing complete.

#nothing, it has been since 2014

consider playing some #bitcoin bong ball while you think about it... 

http://bitfossil.com/743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46/bong-ball.html

<3 #embii

Technically you don't make Bitcoin turing complete. Did you actually put some source code on Bitcoin blockchain by splitting it every 20 bytes on each address and create website to parse the transaction and compile/run the source code?

bitfossill is a simple free text search \ web front end for apertus.io

an apertus.io monitor is running on the bitfossill webserver... this monitors the bitcoin MEMPOOL and many other altcoin MEMPOOLS in realtime for data archived in the apertus.io format.  bong-ball is a fully embedded game that can be played with nothing but apertus.io and a fully synched bitcoin blockchain a traditional webserver is not required.

the entire game is embeded within bitcoin transactions as you have mentioned..it is a complete HTML5 website that references jquery which was also archived on bitcoin earlier using the same software....it is a demonstration of code reuse and application deployment...apertus.io creates a master root index of all archived data that can be referenced in future applications like so <script src="../f5e8166c30fd080f9c5f0ab79a57b058e0d31364f8064f39badddff2675f754b/jquery.min.js"></script> 

bitfossill's purpose is to let you search and access the data using traditional web browsers.

[embii]

below is a web link to the JQUERY source that i immutably archived on bitcoin.... it can be used forever in future bitcoin prod \ or testnet applications for #free as well as in any altcoins that support bitcoin 0.10.0 - 0.16.3 RPC commands.. you will need a full bitcoin wallet and full wallets for any of the altcoins you would like to use to reference bitcoin source code or vice-versa...

http://bitfossil.com/f5e8166c30fd080f9c5f0ab79a57b058e0d31364f8064f39badddff2675f754b/index.htm


with apertus.io you can reference and include source files from bitcoin in an application that is deployed on litecoin, dogecoin, namecoin, datacoin, mazacoin....etc   apertus.io also enables direct private / public messaging as well as #keyword threads / searching on all compatible blockchains and their #free testnets.

There are 100s perhaps thousands of compatible blockchains.

consider it a censorship free complete decentralization of twitter. 

the moderators that removed my previous messages here cannot sensor #embii on the blockchains.

<3 #embii

[embii]

to follow #embii on the bitcoin blockchain (prod / testnet) simply search for #embii in any apertus.io browser connected to a fully synchronized bitcoin wallet.

PS: Once your bitcoin wallet is fully synchronized you can disable your internet and browse the blockchain offline in complete total privacy.

<3 #embii

[n0nce]

~

So you are just storing source code of programs on the blockchain? That's not making Bitcoin Turing complete, because the code is not running on Bitcoin, it's just stored on the blockchain. That's like saying my hard drive or GitHub are Turing complete, because I can store program code on them.

Nonetheless, I'm interested in better understanding how you are storing the data.

For instance, you have a JavaScript file stored in transaction 743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46.
It only contains normal transactions to apparently valid addresses, so the idea of using hex bytes as recipient addresses hasn't been done here, apparently.

[embii]

~

So you are just storing source code of programs on the blockchain? That's not making Bitcoin Turing complete, because the code is not running on Bitcoin, it's just stored on the blockchain. That's like saying my hard drive or GitHub are Turing complete, because I can store program code on them.

Nonetheless, I'm interested in better understanding how you are storing the data.

For instance, you have a JavaScript file stored in transaction 743908c7b0dd89b68956987a3f8ddc3c1d4316452659bff71d241dbb0813fd46.
It only contains normal transactions to apparently valid addresses, so the idea of using hex bytes as recipient addresses hasn't been done here, apparently.

#true

bitcoin and all the altcoins are not turing complete without apertus.io  together they are a completely decentralized turing machine that uses signed transactions and trust to operate.

here is a great website that describes the process.
https://cirosantilli.com/cool-data-embedded-in-the-bitcoin-blockchain/atomsea-and-embii

[n0nce]

bitcoin and all the altcoins are not turing complete without apertus.io  together they are a completely decentralized turing machine that uses signed transactions and trust to operate.

That's where I strongly disagree with the definition, but alright.
Why trust, though?

here is a great website that describes the process.
https://cirosantilli.com/cool-data-embedded-in-the-bitcoin-blockchain/atomsea-and-embii

Okay, I will read it through more thoroughly, but from a quick scan and checking those transactions again, it appears that you do basically just split a file into many small chunks and send small amounts of BTC to invalid addresses that are actually those hex chunks. Then your program can read those out as raw bytes and put back together into program code, images or text (even audio files), is that right?

To be more exact, by 'sending to addresses' I mean that you encode data into the OP_PUSHBYTES_20 part of an output instead of putting a public key hash for which you actually have the preimage / private key. So they are unspendable / lost coins, right?

Do you have an estimate on current-day costs to deploy a file like this (sat/Byte or something like this)? I see your examples are almost 8 years old now; back then it was super cheap of course.

[embii]

trust so monitors can execute programs or interpret application transactions as soon as they are deployed autonomously
trust so i don't execute a program that was designed to take over my machine or steal all of my bitcoin.   lol


here is an example of the current cost which is based on transaction size alone.  no gas fees required.

bitcoin is .21 cents per 20 bytes
doge is .14 cents per 20 bytes
litecoin is 0.0013 cents per 20 bytes
mazacoin is 0.0000000000000000? cents per 20 bytes lol

[n0nce]

trust so monitors can execute programs or interpret application transactions as soon as they are deployed autonomously
trust so i don't execute a program that was designed to take over my machine or steal all of my bitcoin.   lol

Gotcha! Makes sense. So you blindly trust that if I put a program in there, it's not malicious or how do you know 'who to trust'?

here is an example of the current cost which is based on transaction size alone.  no gas fees required.

bitcoin is .21 cents per 20 bytes
doge is .14 cents per 20 bytes
litecoin is 0.0013 cents per 20 bytes
mazacoin is 0.0000000000000000? cents per 20 bytes lol

That's pretty fine. As far as I can tell, you did pay more for that pong game, but you could have gone lower, right.

But in essence, you're just putting data on the blockchain by using OP_PUSHBYTES_20 section as data section, correct?

Why do you keep mentioning gas fees? We're not in Ethereum land, nobody here cares about gas or even thinks about it, no need to mention it all the time.

[embii]

good i am tired of talking about gas as well....lol....this functionality was realized by hugpuddle.org before #ethereum..
we didn't think that an entirely new class of blockchains or gas was required to do these types of things.
we are releasing  0.4.0 this year designed for a larger much less technical audience.    (the world)  lol


trust is accomplished by signing a hash of the application transactions using bitcoin's or the altcoin's internal signing function and including the signature with the transaction... monitors perform the same function in reverse comparing the hash to the signature and if they match and if the address is a trusted source then the transaction is executed if it's executable......if there is no signature or if the signature doesn't match it is ignored..

<3 #embii