[Discussion] Taro: A new protocol for multi-asset Bitcoin and Lightning

[OmegaStarScream]

I read about this a couple of days ago, and I also saw Micheal Saylor mentioning it today at the Miami conference, so I wanted to share this with you since I couldn't find any mentions of it on the forum:

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Taro enables wallet developers to provide users with a USD-denominated balance and a BTC-denominated balance (or any number of assets) in the same wallet, trivially sending value across the Lightning Network just as they do today.
-snip-

What are your thoughts on this? And do you think this could eventually end the use of stablecoins on the other blockchains?

For anyone interested in the technical details: https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taro

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[Mbitr]

Like you I’m surprised that this hasn’t been mentioned anywhere. Thanks for starting this topic.
I understand NFTs can produced/utilised too - sorry I’m not too technical 
Again, like you I want to know if this is a “game changer” ??

[tromp]

Again, like you I want to know if this is a “game changer” ??

It's as much a game changer as RGB is:

https://www.rgbfaq.com/faq/what-is-rgb

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5275891.0

[dkbit98]

I read about this a couple of days ago, and I also saw Micheal Saylor mentioning it today at the Miami conference, so I wanted to share this with you since I couldn't find any mentions of it on the forum

According to link you send it looks like they are working on adding stable coins and other assets on Lightning Network, but this was already done recently using OMNI Layer and Bitcoin-powered service provider Synonym.
Competition is always good, especially when we see Lightning Network adoption is getting better every day with services and exchanges, but I would like to see more regular people  using it.

[d5000]

According to link you send it looks like they are working on adding stable coins and other assets on Lightning Network, but this was already done recently using OMNI Layer and Bitcoin-powered service provider Synonym.

I think you mean the Tether transaction on Lightning on March 22.

However, I think both RGB and Taro seem to be more expressive than OmniBOLT; it looks like OmniBOLT is a pure token protocol (which allows centralized stablecoins where the issuer controls the supply, so you've to trust it), while Taro and RGB would allow more complex smart contracts, perhaps even algorithmic stablecoins - if this is possible via Lightning (I guess there can be problems if something like Dai's "global settlement" is needed, i.e. that stablecoins are automatically "back-converted" into the base asset).

I've also only now heard of both protocols and it's really interesting stuff

[fillippone]

I think it’s worth making a slight digression on TARO vs RGB.
TARO is plagiarism of RGB concept, with a different, yet incompatible, implementation.
When RGB devs discovered that LL (Lightning Labs) was working on an implementation of their works, they offered a collaboration, but calls were never returned.
LL code-named their TARO project “CMYK”, an apparent reference to RGB, yet they refused any credit at launch.

Well, everything is open source and not patented, so no legal thread can be issued, but I think LL actions were, to say the least, unethical.
No doubt they wanted to attract capital. Seventy million is a lot of money, and they could have credited RGB ideas, then state the implementation was rubbish and start with a new one. That would have been ok.
Explicitly mocking a rival project (not funded/little funded) to attract hype and VC funding is something that is not in the best interest of the movement.

Having said that, I wish all the best to them.

[dkbit98]

However, I think both RGB and Taro seem to be more expressive than OmniBOLT; it looks like OmniBOLT is a pure token protocol (which allows centralized stablecoins where the issuer controls the supply, so you've to trust it), while Taro and RGB would allow more complex smart contracts, perhaps even algorithmic stablecoins - if this is possible via Lightning

I was not researching any of this options deeply and I don't know exactly how they work, but if something is more complex like you say for Taro protocol, than it means it can potentially have more bugs.
Algorithmic stablecoins can lose peg much more easy that other type of stablecoins and I don't want to use something like that if they are connected with other altcoins in any way.
And I think that whole point of lightning network was supposed to be elimination of need for using bunch of altcoins, and saving on fees.

TARO is plagiarism of RGB concept, with a different, yet incompatible, implementation.

Interesting story and I didnt know about it until now, but there is no real plagiarism in open source if you post correct credits for original authors, or if you fork it.

[fillippone]

Interesting story and I didnt know about it until now, but there is no real plagiarism in open source if you post correct credits for original authors, or if you fork it.

That is the point: they didn't post any credit.

Some high-level profile in the RGB community posted this:

On the other hand, I did say thanks for legitimising our idea, though that being done in a very ungrateful and ungraceful way

https://twitter.com/olukolova/status/1511877112617127947?s=21&t=0VMXz-adrvffNCxXZqtctw

[n0nce]

I think it’s worth making a slight digression on TARO vs RGB.
TARO is plagiarism of RGB concept, with a different, yet incompatible, implementation.

This is my impression, too. To say that I'm not a fan of Lightning Labs might be an understatement; considering I see big issues with lnd due to scaling (may lead to centralization due to high resource utilization), them holding back https://bolt12.org/ and similar great ideas from the C-Lightning community.

They also get VC funding if I'm not mistaken and have potential WEF involvement; sure they can always claim otherwise, but then I'm wondering why they're still on the WEF website. That's besides the point here; just some examples that illustrate why I don't trust them to have come up with the idea by themselves and do believe they had a good look at RGB before developing Taro.

It's sad when people don't give credit in this open-source cypherpunk community; this is what often happens when VC meets open-source volunteers though, so in a way it's nothing new.

[fillippone]

It's sad when people don't give credit in this open-source cypherpunk community; this is what often happens when VC meets open-source volunteers though, so in a way, it's nothing new.

In an interview in Italian, Giacomo Zucco came back to the Taro affair.
He stood by his previous stance (LL stole their code, and they even mocked their RGB name) to obtain funding with a stringer proposition "we invented a protocol to transfer assets over the bitcoin network", instead of saying, "we decided to rewrite an almost identical implementation of an open protocol to transfer assets over the Lighting Network".
He also added that now the funding has been secured, "Her Starkness" finally returned calls to Giacomo Zucco to find an agreement about recognizing (some) credits to RGB devs.

[assetsbtc]

What are your thoughts on this? And do you think this could eventually end the use of stablecoins on the other blockchains?

For anyone interested in the technical details: https://docs.lightning.engineering/the-lightning-network/taro

Looks awesome and seems like a new layer that will unleash a lot of potential. BTC

[Carlton Banks]

In an interview in Italian, Giacomo Zucco came back to the Taro affair.
He stood by his previous stance (LL stole their code, and they even mocked their RGB name) to obtain funding with a stringer proposition "we invented a protocol to transfer assets over the bitcoin network", instead of saying, "we decided to rewrite an almost identical implementation of an open protocol to transfer assets over the Lighting Network".
He also added that now the funding has been secured, "Her Starkness" finally returned calls to Giacomo Zucco to find an agreement about recognizing (some) credits to RGB devs.

a somewhat strange position for LL to take... Osuntokun claimed on the lightning-dev mailing list to have read the spec for RGB, but failed to (fully) understand it. Another dev (not working on Taro, but commenting generally) replied in concurrence with that statement (that the RGB spec was not an easy read).

If it's difficult for to read and/or understand a specification document. surely it's not easy to produce a spec for a very similar system and claim it as one's own original work? Unless we all read these documents (both RGB and Taro specs), it's not easy to know for sure.

It's amazing how prone these technical professions are to descend into, frankly, public hair-pulling spats. Dear oh dear



None of this will matter in the long term; if Taro is too commerically-driven somehow, or RGB is too difficult for devs or users to fathom, or both, then someone will one day come along with something better anyway, assuming that the whole concept is not cat-vids-on-teh-blockchain froth (which it slightly sounds like, in fairness)

[fillippone]

None of this will matter in the long term; if Taro is too commerically-driven somehow, or RGB is too difficult for devs or users to fathom, or both, then someone will one day come along with something better anyway, assuming that the whole concept is not cat-vids-on-teh-blockchain froth (which it slightly sounds like, in fairness)

After the initial shock from the RGB community, and the rancorous sarcastic passive/aggressive reaction, luckily this tends to be the main spirit right now.
 They acknowledged their specific wasn't ready for implementation, difficult to read, and poorly documented.
LL came out with a fully documented, completely rewritten, and functioning^{pinch of salt here} protocol.
Se they are now willing to contribute to make the final objective of a good implementation reality. Cooperation seems the only way forward, but now the ball is in LL court.

[OmegaStarScream]

The alpha release of the Taro daemon is officially here[1][2] and It should now be possible for developers to experiment with it on the bitcoin testnet.

[1] https://lightning.engineering/posts/2022-9-28-taro-launch/
[2] https://github.com/lightninglabs/taro/releases/tag/v0.1.0-alpha

[NotATether]

Grudge matches aside, am I the only one here who doesn't see the point of either TARO or RGB?

If I were developing a wallet, why would I use these over just fetching fiat rates from an exchange and display the currency conversion like Electrum already does?

Yeah sure, everyone likes smart contracts and all that, but I believe colored coins largely address this already.

[fillippone]

Grudge matches aside, am I the only one here who doesn't see the point of either TARO or RGB?

If I were developing a wallet, why would I use these over just fetching fiat rates from an exchange and display the currency conversion like Electrum already does?

Yeah sure, everyone likes smart contracts and all that, but I believe colored coins largely address this already.

RGB/TARO and all the other solution build on top of the Lightning network are the possibility to evolve bitcoin to something else, without compromising the base layer, and the attached monetary functions.
The amount of research, experimentation and testing on the LN and corollary layers is unprecedented, and dwarfs what is being done on all the shitcoins combined.

This is why.

[n0nce]

Grudge matches aside, am I the only one here who doesn't see the point of either TARO or RGB?

Regarding 'virtual assets' in general (like NFTs), I'm not sure myself what to use them for / what they really make sense for. But I'm not against it, either, especially on top of Lightning (no messing with the blockchain for fun experimentation type of stuff).

If I were developing a wallet, why would I use these over just fetching fiat rates from an exchange and display the currency conversion like Electrum already does?

I doubt that fetching exchange rates is a really good usage of these protocols.

Yeah sure, everyone likes smart contracts and all that, but I believe colored coins largely address this already.

Well, we don't have colored coins on Lightning. So that could be a reason for using these protocols.
I guess something like BSQ token could become compatible with Lightning through Taro or RGB.

[NotATether]

RGB/TARO and all the other solution build on top of the Lightning network are the possibility to evolve bitcoin to something else, without compromising the base layer, and the attached monetary functions.
The amount of research, experimentation and testing on the LN and corollary layers is unprecedented, and dwarfs what is being done on all the shitcoins combined.

This is why.

That is the thing about these protocols, they do not directly solve an existing problem (except for maybe introducing smart contracts which is respectable so yeah).

If I were a developer researching projects (which I incidentally am), the questions i would ask myself before committing time to it are:

- Does it solve a problem?
- How important is the problem that is being solved?
- Is there an easier way to solve this problem? (the last one is very important. If the goal of these two things is to make bitcoin settlement occur faster than on-chain, there are better ways of doing this without LN, which has only a fraction of the liquidity as Layer 1).

[fillippone]

RGB/TARO and all the other solution build on top of the Lightning network are the possibility to evolve bitcoin to something else, without compromising the base layer, and the attached monetary functions.
The amount of research, experimentation and testing on the LN and corollary layers is unprecedented, and dwarfs what is being done on all the shitcoins combined.

This is why.

That is the thing about these protocols, they do not directly solve an existing problem (except for maybe introducing smart contracts which is respectable so yeah).

If I were a developer researching projects (which I incidentally am), the questions i would ask myself before committing time to it are:

- Does it solve a problem?
- How important is the problem that is being solved?
- Is there an easier way to solve this problem? (the last one is very important. If the goal of these two things is to make bitcoin settlement occur faster than on-chain, there are better ways of doing this without LN, which has only a fraction of the liquidity as Layer 1).

The point is recreating all the DeFi in the bitcoin ecosystem, thus leveraging the bitcoin decentralization.

If you want to follow more the RGB project, so you can learn more: https://t.me/rgbtelegram

[NotATether]

The point is recreating all the DeFi in the bitcoin ecosystem, thus leveraging the bitcoin decentralization.

If you want to follow more the RGB project, so you can learn more: https://t.me/rgbtelegram

Interesting.

But we saw how unprepared people are for maintaining DeFi apps by the rate at which they collapse or get hacked on other chains. I am more in favor of a restricted DeFi environment where you need a document similar to a BIP to get approved by a consensus before you can host/bootstrap a DeFi app for all Taro/RGB nodes. Someone should probably tell this to Elizabeth Stark and other Lightning Labs people.