Newbies: Don't use centralized exchanges!

[tvplus006]

I myself very often use various decentralized exchanges to buy new coins that are not yet available on centralized exchanges.

That's interesting! Do you have an example? I was under the impression that it's easier to find liquidity of altcoins on centralized exchanges rather than decentralized exchanges (just due to the fact that they have less liquidity in general).

What example do you want to hear, because I am writing about new coins that have not yet been listed on centralized exchanges.  Accordingly, such coins do not have liquidity on CEX, since they are not traded there and can only be bought on decentralized exchanges at the pre-sale stage of a public or closed round.

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[Saint-loup]

• KYCnot.me is a website on which you can find non-KYC exchanges. Make sure you check their trading volume and take it into consideration whether you will use it or not

Several people talked about this website above but I still don't understand why it mentions Kucoin and not other big CEXs without KYC. CMIIW but Hitbtc, Bitfinex, Poloniex, Yobit, Hotbit,... still not require any KYC to open an account and trade on them.  

[aysg76]

That's a good point; but I don't really believe you need privacy, untraceability or even self-custody if you see cryptocurrencies as just a means of speculation / trading. Because then you're just buying coins to sell them higher later. Traders don't aim to use the coins as anonymous, P2P cash anyway. They only want to maximize fiat holdings and never intend to actually use the currency. So therefore they couldn't care less about anonymity and privacy, right. That's a whole different use case.

For them the main aim is profitable trades and they have to trade cryptos so these exchanges are suitable for them but those who wants to hold their coins safely then avoiding these CEX is the best alternative to them as they have your keys and can freeze your transactions anytime so what safety do you expect from these platforms.

We are users and holders not any competitor of these CEX who wants to establish their business by defaming them as the problems are real faced by many and just want to guide them to don't cater these exchanges.When you are storing decentralised cryptos like bitcoin on these centralised platforms then you deplete the base aim of using these coins and don't expect privacy and safety from them at all.

Those who are into trading also needs to have some P2P or decentralised exchange because there are lot of risk with these CEX and it's not hatred for them but only our precautionary measures to keep our funds safe form them and don't know how your KYC documents are being used by them are keep track of you with imposed restriction.

[n0nce]

I myself very often use various decentralized exchanges to buy new coins that are not yet available on centralized exchanges.

That's interesting! Do you have an example? I was under the impression that it's easier to find liquidity of altcoins on centralized exchanges rather than decentralized exchanges (just due to the fact that they have less liquidity in general).

What example do you want to hear, because I am writing about new coins that have not yet been listed on centralized exchanges.  Accordingly, such coins do not have liquidity on CEX, since they are not traded there and can only be bought on decentralized exchanges at the pre-sale stage of a public or closed round.

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?
And an example of such a coin?

Like: 'There is the coin X that I could only buy on exchange Y'. Simple..

That's a good point; but I don't really believe you need privacy, untraceability or even self-custody if you see cryptocurrencies as just a means of speculation / trading. Because then you're just buying coins to sell them higher later. Traders don't aim to use the coins as anonymous, P2P cash anyway. They only want to maximize fiat holdings and never intend to actually use the currency. So therefore they couldn't care less about anonymity and privacy, right. That's a whole different use case.

For them the main aim is profitable trades and they have to trade cryptos so these exchanges are suitable for them but those who wants to hold their coins safely then avoiding these CEX is the best alternative to them as they have your keys and can freeze your transactions anytime so what safety do you expect from these platforms.

Yes, exactly: if you need all your fancy tools to draw lines and hope for profits, go for those centralized platforms. You're probably also a stock trader anyway and the stock trading site you're already using may even sell cryptocurrencies. So just stick to that as you've given them your KYC information and everything.

But for holding your coins and using them (as they're meant to); steer far away from them. No matter how flashy and nicely they design their landing sites and how much they try to target newbies. These aren't Bitcoin on-ramps and shouldn't be used as such.

[witcher_sense]

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?
And an example of such a coin?

Back in the day, there was a decentralized trading platform called Etherdelta where you could find many ERC20 tokens not listed on any centralized exchange. Anyone could come to Etherdelta, add their own token, and even create a kind of market with unique buyers and sellers. You didn't need to ask for permission to start trading there, you could frictionlessly import self-created or someone else's token. No wonder this place was full of scams, malicious copies, impersonators, and useless shitcoins of zero value, but at least no one could steal users' data or private keys because of the decentralized structure of the said platform. However, the chief problem of decentralized platforms like Etherdelta is that they are (or may be) decentralized only on a technical level but not on a social one. Etherdelta had a founder, a single point of failure, who was charged by the SEC with running an unregistered "decentralized" platform.

[Pmalek]

The (of course centralized) exchanges listed in this topic are especially untrustworthy by being proven to confiscate your coins if they believe you got it from gambling or other activites they don't like (directly or indirectly). Keep in mind that you can receive 'tainted funds' by someone you do legit business with, and you can be a totally legal person and still get your coins confiscated.

Even if you do legit business with a gambling platform that doesn't involve gambling, your coins can be dirty money in the eyes of centralized exchanges. Maybe you are a translator, content creator, developer, maybe you designed some artwork, a logo, found a bug in their systems... and you got compensated and rewarded for your work. Deposit those coins to a centralized exchange and you might be in for a nasty surprise.

CMIIW but Hitbtc, Bitfinex, Poloniex, Yobit, Hotbit,... still not require any KYC to open an account and trade on them.

HitBTC and Yobit are scam exchanges. Just check out what kind of threads you will come across when you search for "site:bitcointalk.org Yobit" or "site:bitcointalk.org HitBTC". HitBTC makes it easy to deposit, almost impossible to withdraw. I remember they used to have the biggest withdrawal fees on the market.   

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?

witcher_sense mentioned EtherDelta, but I think that one is dead already. ForkDelta was often mentioned as its successor. But I can't help you regarding the token names. It is true that you could trade tokens on those platforms even before they got listed anywhere else. 

[n0nce]

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?
And an example of such a coin?

Back in the day, there was a decentralized trading platform called Etherdelta where you could find many ERC20 tokens not listed on any centralized exchange. Anyone could come to Etherdelta, add their own token, and even create a kind of market with unique buyers and sellers. You didn't need to ask for permission to start trading there, you could frictionlessly import self-created or someone else's token. No wonder this place was full of scams, malicious copies, impersonators, and useless shitcoins of zero value, but at least no one could steal users' data or private keys because of the decentralized structure of the said platform. However, the chief problem of decentralized platforms like Etherdelta is that they are (or may be) decentralized only on a technical level but not on a social one. Etherdelta had a founder, a single point of failure, who was charged by the SEC with running an unregistered "decentralized" platform.

I see, very interesting insight thanks! When you say technological decentralization, does it mean there were no servers (similar to Bisq) and you had to run a client to keep your offers online?
Because if the software is open-source and the architecture is really decentralized, people could surely keep the network running, no matter if the creator (or anyone else) wishes so or not - right?

The (of course centralized) exchanges listed in this topic are especially untrustworthy by being proven to confiscate your coins if they believe you got it from gambling or other activites they don't like (directly or indirectly). Keep in mind that you can receive 'tainted funds' by someone you do legit business with, and you can be a totally legal person and still get your coins confiscated.

Even if you do legit business with a gambling platform that doesn't involve gambling, your coins can be dirty money in the eyes of centralized exchanges. Maybe you are a translator, content creator, developer, maybe you designed some artwork, a logo, found a bug in their systems... and you got compensated and rewarded for your work. Deposit those coins to a centralized exchange and you might be in for a nasty surprise.

Good point - what springs to mind for me was winning the 'Discovery of the Year 2021' award where I also got some funds from Sportsbet! I might actually not be able to sell them on a centralized exchange. Honestly only realized this now, since I never even considered doing so (selling the funds on a CEX).

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CMIIW but Hitbtc, Bitfinex, Poloniex, Yobit, Hotbit,... still not require any KYC to open an account and trade on them.

HitBTC and Yobit are scam exchanges. Just check out what kind of threads you will come across when you search for "site:bitcointalk.org Yobit" or "site:bitcointalk.org HitBTC". HitBTC makes it easy to deposit, almost impossible to withdraw. I remember they used to have the biggest withdrawal fees on the market.   

That's correct, they have pretty high withdrawal fees.
I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but it appears Yobit charges 0.0005 for any coin.

|	Payment method	|	Logo	|	Deposit fee	|	Withdrawal fee	|
|	Coins	|	All coins	|	Free	|	0.00050000	|

That's around 10 bucks at current prices, but it would be around 30 if we weren't in such a deep bear market right now.

Other sources actually also report that it was much higher; 0.00125 BTC (maybe in the past):

|	Coin	|	Withdrawal fees	|
|	BTC	|	$26.974257	|
|	Bitcoin	|	0.0012BTC	|

For HitBTC it's even more interesting!
If you search for 'Withdrawal Fees' in their help section (https://support.hitbtc.com/en/support/search?term=withdrawal+fees), there is a single result.
And it tells you that you need to create an account to even be able to see what they charge per coin!!

The full list of fee rates is available in your Account.

According to the same external website I quoted before though, it costs 0.0007BTC, which makes it even more expensive than the former exchange.

|	Coin	|	Withdrawal fees	|
|	BTC	|	$15.795376	|
|	Bitcoin	|	0.0007BTC	|

If you think about it, buying $100 on such an exchange with 0.0007BTC withdrawal fee (~$15 US) at current market price of $22,485.53 and withdrawing, paying 0.0007BTC in fees means instead of 0.00444730BTC, you get 0.00374730 in your wallet, effectively having paid an outrageous price of $26,685.88 / BTC. That's a markup of 18.5%.

Paying an almost 20% premium for having the convenience of buying BTC on an app instead of downloading and installing Bisq, is not something I'm willing to do to be honest.

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?

witcher_sense mentioned EtherDelta, but I think that one is dead already. ForkDelta was often mentioned as its successor. But I can't help you regarding the token names. It is true that you could trade tokens on those platforms even before they got listed anywhere else. 

Oh I don't care about the tokens specifically, I just find it interesting that in this altcoin niche it seems normal for them to appear on decentralized exchanges first. I'm not sure how decentralized they are though, if they have a simple website that you can interact with. This to me implies there are (centralized) servers that can easily be taken down or hacked. But I'd like to see a trend towards normalizing decentralized exchanges as fiat on-/off-ramps instead of being this super niche privacy thing. Because as I just showed there's also a large price difference especially for newcomers who buy smaller amounts.

[witcher_sense]

I see, very interesting insight thanks! When you say technological decentralization, does it mean there were no servers (similar to Bisq) and you had to run a client to keep your offers online?
Because if the software is open-source and the architecture is really decentralized, people could surely keep the network running, no matter if the creator (or anyone else) wishes so or not - right?

Honestly, I have little knowledge about how the Bisq network works, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no central server that makes Bisq exchange operate. In fact, in order to access trading offers, users first need to install a Bisq node, which will communicate with other nodes in a peer-to-peer network. In a peer-to-peer network, each node is both a server and a client, each node keeps all necessary information and hands over it to peers it has a connection with. Bisq is decentralized for two reasons: it has no central point of failure, and it is built on top of another decentralized network, namely the bitcoin network. It is a perfect example of decentralization on a technical level. Is it also decentralized on a social level? I don't know. It is open-source software to which everyone can contribute, but still, it has founders and lead developers. Will the project continue to exist in its current form should all these people suddenly disappear? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how much influence all these people have: if the level of influence is such that it allows them to make (useful) changes to the protocol, then this network is not that decentralized on a social level. Bitcoin wasn't decentralized on a social level in its early days because Satoshi had too much decision-making power. But take Ethereum, for example, it uses proof-of-work, peer-to-peer topology, and "immutable" smart contracts - the signs of technical decentralization - but it still has a founder who is able to make arbitrary changes to improve his "decentralized" blockchain. Another example of weak social decentralization is premine, which allows founders to control networks even more.

[Pmalek]

Good point - what springs to mind for me was winning the 'Discovery of the Year 2021' award where I also got some funds from Sportsbet! I might actually not be able to sell them on a centralized exchange.

Yeah, that's right. You were one of the winners who got some money from Sportsbet. If you were to deposit those in Gemini or Binance.US (probably Coinbase as well), they would surely have some questions for you. Especially if you got those coins directly from an address associated with Sportsbet. I see no reason why Sportsbet would make any roundabouts and hide the origin of the Bitcoin.   

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but it appears Yobit charges 0.0005 for any coin.

Seems that way, yes. So that's around $11 at current rates. But there are also reports like this one where the screenshot shows they are asking for 0.03 ETH for Ethereum withdrawals. Even after this recent drop in value, that's still $35.   

For HitBTC it's even more interesting!
...
According to the same external website I quoted before though, it costs 0.0007BTC, which makes it even more expensive than the former exchange

Yeah, 0.0007 BTC seems to be correct according to https://withdrawalfees.com/exchanges/hitbtc as well.

I'm not sure how decentralized they are though, if they have a simple website that you can interact with. This to me implies there are (centralized) servers that can easily be taken down or hacked.

You connect your own ETH wallet to the exchange. The exchange doesn't provide you with a deposit address. The danger is that one of the ways to do that is to import your private keys! That of course shouldn't be done. A different way is connecting with a Ledger hardware wallet. With the Nano, you don't import any private keys of course. I remember reading about a DNS hack a few years ago where everyone who used the fake site at the time had their wallets emptied, but Ledger users remained protected because of their connections through hardware wallets.

[n0nce]

I see, very interesting insight thanks! When you say technological decentralization, does it mean there were no servers (similar to Bisq) and you had to run a client to keep your offers online?
Because if the software is open-source and the architecture is really decentralized, people could surely keep the network running, no matter if the creator (or anyone else) wishes so or not - right?

Honestly, I have little knowledge about how the Bisq network works, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no central server that makes Bisq exchange operate. In fact, in order to access trading offers, users first need to install a Bisq node, which will communicate with other nodes in a peer-to-peer network. In a peer-to-peer network, each node is both a server and a client, each node keeps all necessary information and hands over it to peers it has a connection with.

Yes, correct; that's how Bisq works. I was wondering whether the platforms you've used in the past also worked like this or how they were technologically decentralized.

Will the project continue to exist in its current form should all these people suddenly disappear? Maybe, maybe not.

The 'social decentralization' is a good point. I guess here Bisq tends more towards Bitcoin; as its founders or lead developers don't appear publicly as 'prominently' as Buterin does, and last I checked they do have a lot of community contributions. In theory, it's easy to fork Bisq (e.g. reverting to an older version) and continue using that version, in case they 'mess up' and move into a direction that the community doesn't like. Same as Bitcoin really; even easier since there's no blockchain split and whatnot.

Good point - what springs to mind for me was winning the 'Discovery of the Year 2021' award where I also got some funds from Sportsbet! I might actually not be able to sell them on a centralized exchange.

Yeah, that's right. You were one of the winners who got some money from Sportsbet. If you were to deposit those in Gemini or Binance.US (probably Coinbase as well), they would surely have some questions for you. Especially if you got those coins directly from an address associated with Sportsbet. I see no reason why Sportsbet would make any roundabouts and hide the origin of the Bitcoin.

I did get it directly from their payout address..

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but it appears Yobit charges 0.0005 for any coin.

Seems that way, yes. So that's around $11 at current rates. But there are also reports like this one where the screenshot shows they are asking for 0.03 ETH for Ethereum withdrawals. Even after this recent drop in value, that's still $35.

It's even more extreme if you work out the 'percentage above market' like in my $100 example. It means even if you take a very expensive offer on Bisq for 5% 'above market', you'll still be saving money.

I'm not sure how decentralized they are though, if they have a simple website that you can interact with. This to me implies there are (centralized) servers that can easily be taken down or hacked.

You connect your own ETH wallet to the exchange. The exchange doesn't provide you with a deposit address. The danger is that one of the ways to do that is to import your private keys! That of course shouldn't be done. A different way is connecting with a Ledger hardware wallet. With the Nano, you don't import any private keys of course. I remember reading about a DNS hack a few years ago where everyone who used the fake site at the time had their wallets emptied, but Ledger users remained protected because of their connections through hardware wallets.

Ohhh, connecting a wallet doesn't sound too good. At least create one just for the decentralized exchange, maybe. That's kind of what Bisq does; it has an integrated (local, non-custodial) wallet, that stores its private keys on the PC it's running on. You can use external wallet, too, though. In any way, the keys don't leave your device.
I still don't understand how the 'ETH DEX' platforms you guys are talking about were decentralized, if there was no client software like Bisq running on the users' personal computers.

[lalabotax]

Actually this is what I want to do. But the fact that I need to cash out crypto to money should be done by the CEX in my country that is regulated under the government institution. That is CEX. all my local exchange is regulated and they ask our KYC. May be if this is for cashing out, no choice beside doing it on CEX. Although there are P2P, but is it really secured?
However, if this is about exchanges that are for trading, it may not only be CEX, but DEX is also suitable for me. But so far, I use mostly Binance.

[n0nce]

Actually this is what I want to do. But the fact that I need to cash out crypto to money should be done by the CEX in my country that is regulated under the government institution. That is CEX. all my local exchange is regulated and they ask our KYC. May be if this is for cashing out, no choice beside doing it on CEX. Although there are P2P, but is it really secured?
However, if this is about exchanges that are for trading, it may not only be CEX, but DEX is also suitable for me. But so far, I use mostly Binance.

If you want to sell crypto for fiat, I'd always recommend going decentralized.
You can either find someone directly who wants to get some Bitcoin locally and meet up; or you can use a truly decentralized exchange like Bisq. It's basically just a way to securely find and trade with an unknown person directly. I'm sure that this is legal wherever you are located; that's usually a trade of goods. Like, the same way you can sell a bike on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace; you can sell Bitcoins. Just not through Craigslist or FB Marketplace, but through https://bisq.network/.

It's much better than using a centralized exchange, since as I wrote above, it's cheaper, anonymous, you don't need to do KYC and you're not at risk of getting funds frozen, confiscated or the exchange having technical downtimes.

[khaled0111]

Yes, correct; that's how Bisq works. I was wondering whether the platforms you've used in the past also worked like this or how they were technologically decentralized.

Etherdelta was probably one of the first exchanges I used. It's basically a smart contract, hence the decentralization aspect.
The website is just a way to interact with the smart contract. Even if the website is down or completely cease to exist it would still be possible to interact with the smart contract via other tools such as etherscan or mew.

Back then, it was possible to trade any token (erc20) just by importing its smart contract address.
Forkdelta as the name suggests is a fork of etherdelta.

[n0nce]

Yes, correct; that's how Bisq works. I was wondering whether the platforms you've used in the past also worked like this or how they were technologically decentralized.

Etherdelta was probably one of the first exchanges I used. It's basically a smart contract, hence the decentralization aspect.

The website is just a way to interact with the smart contract. Even if the website is down or completely cease to exist it would still be possible to interact with the smart contract via other tools such as etherscan or mew.

Oh, that's how it's decentralized, that's neat! Yup, sounds good to me. Too bad Ethereum has so many flaws, but I like the idea of using a smart contract; that doesn't require to spin up a whole new network like in Bisq.
There's one issue with smart contracts which is that the immutability of the blockchain doesn't easily allow you to update them to fix a bug. You could code an update mechanism into it, but then it's hard to trust the immutability and you have to hope that devs won't change the contract in a 'bad way', making it less decentralized again. But I digress!

Back then, it was possible to trade any token (erc20) just by importing its smart contract address.
Forkdelta as the name suggests is a fork of etherdelta.

Cool cool. I mean if you're already in the Ethereum ecosystem, might as well use smart contracts. I just wouldn't build a Bitcoin on-/off-ramp as an ETH SC.

[tvplus006]

I myself very often use various decentralized exchanges to buy new coins that are not yet available on centralized exchanges.

That's interesting! Do you have an example? I was under the impression that it's easier to find liquidity of altcoins on centralized exchanges rather than decentralized exchanges (just due to the fact that they have less liquidity in general).

What example do you want to hear, because I am writing about new coins that have not yet been listed on centralized exchanges.  Accordingly, such coins do not have liquidity on CEX, since they are not traded there and can only be bought on decentralized exchanges at the pre-sale stage of a public or closed round.

Do you have an example of such a decentralized exchange where these coins are sold?
And an example of such a coin?

Like: 'There is the coin X that I could only buy on exchange Y'. Simple..

Almost 90% of all coins that are present on the market can be bought only on a decentralized exchange, as this does not require the financial costs associated with listing on CEX. Accordingly, by the time of TGE, each team is listing its coin on DEX. Such an example is the Robby coin, which is traded only on Uniswap: https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/robby/markets/

[tranthidung]

Several people talked about this website above but I still don't understand why it mentions Kucoin and not other big CEXs without KYC. CMIIW but Hitbtc, Bitfinex, Poloniex, Yobit, Hotbit,... still not require any KYC to open an account and trade on them.  

• Poloniex: Are you sure about them? I did not use Poloniex since late of 2017 or early of 2018. Around that period, they required KYC. I submitted my document and successfully verified my account. I did not use it long enough but did they actually lift KYC requirement in latest years?
• Yobit: that exchange is shady, not like a scam because shady # scam. Even they don't require KYC, I don't use them
• Hotbit, Bitfinex: No KYC (you are right)

[Saint-loup]

Several people talked about this website above but I still don't understand why it mentions Kucoin and not other big CEXs without KYC. CMIIW but Hitbtc, Bitfinex, Poloniex, Yobit, Hotbit,... still not require any KYC to open an account and trade on them.  

• Poloniex: Are you sure about them? I did not use Poloniex since late of 2017 or early of 2018. Around that period, they required KYC. I submitted my document and successfully verified my account. I did not use it long enough but did they actually lift KYC requirement in latest years?

Yes I'm sure about Poloniex, that use to be one of the best move from a Cex in the recent years, but Poloniex has finally dropped mandatory KYC for registering and using its platform. It happened in late 2019 just before Christmas.
I've never given any KYC to them and I can still freely access my account.

We’ve heard your feedback time and time again about wanting to use Poloniex without giving up your identity. We’ve wanted to make this a reality for a while now and are sorry it has taken us longer than we’d like.
We’re excited to finally be able to tell you, it’s happening! Starting now, all new customers can sign up and begin trading using only an email address and password.
[...]
To our long-time unverified customers, we know how frustrating your experience has been recently and we’re dedicated to improving that for you. That’s why we prioritized creating this new account tier and are upgrading existing customer accounts as one of our first moves towards addressing the needs of our global crypto traders.

https://medium.com/poloniex/a-new-account-tier-is-here-bebb4a8919e0
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2019/12/23/poloniex-drops-kyc-for-withdrawals-below-10000-following-us-exit/

Few restrictions remain, but they are very light for the average Joe.
https://support.poloniex.com/hc/en-us/articles/360041078913-Level-1-Account-Features

[BlackHatCoiner]

Added German translation: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5411848.0

[S3300]

Binance exchange blocking some countries of it's platform is not robbery, and this doesn't mean the exchange isn't safe for newbies, Binance will warn you to withdraw you funds before they ban those locations, I like this exchange and I have been a user for the past year's now.. No other exchange is better.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Binance exchange blocking some countries of it's platform is not robbery

I didn't say "blocking" is robbery. I just said that they're essentially dictating of where your money is allowed to go, hereby they censor you. And since censorship is an objectively bad habit, especially when self-custody is an option, you should avoid using Binance. You might want to continue buying bitcoin using Binance, for personal reasons, but using it as a wallet is just plain stupid.