Users that use Bitcoin Core as wallet: how do you keep your wallet.dat safe?

[takuma sato]

If you use Bitcoin Core as wallet, how do you keep your keys safe?

Im not comfortable with anything but Bitcoin Core including to manage keys and im sure im not the only one. The problem is keeping the wallet.dat file safe, specially on an scenario were physical copies can be lost.

An Electrum user can have physical backups and an extra layer of protection by remembering the seed, so worst case scenario, if everything is lost, you still have the chance to spawn your wallet with the 24 words. However, with Bitcoin Core you are limited to the wallet.dat

How do you keep this file safe, and what if all physical copies become lost due floods, fires, thieves, government bans it and becomes extremely anti Bitcoin and seizes all physical drives if they find any links of you owning or having ever owned crypto, or you trying to cross a border where you get your stuff cloned (already happening in airports) etc.

Having multiple copies in different physical locations requires that you either trust someone else which I don't, or you own other properties which which a government will know you own anyway. Unless you are insane enough to bury a copy in in the middle of nowhere, but then again, someone could find it. Construction workers, random people, scavenging animals, etc etc. Not to mention there are cameras everywhere nowadays.

You could upload it somewhere online, encrypting the file inside and encrypted file, but then you are trusting no one finds this file, because if they find it, they can have a physical copy with all the time in the world to either attempt to bruteforce or wait for an exploit of the algorithm used to encrypt it in order to access the files.

I still haven't found a way to be comfortable using Bitcoin Core as a wallet in terms of storing it and accessing it quickly in extreme situations in case I were to lose all physical copies.

[n0nce]

Im not comfortable with anything but Bitcoin Core including to manage keys.

Why, though? Apparently, you're not comfortable with Bitcoin Core either. Every wallet has its upsides and drawbacks. For me, the biggest drawback of SPV wallets is simply that they don't verify the full chain. However, if you pair an SPV wallet (that gives you seed words to easily back up) with a self-hosted Bitcoin Core node, you do get the best of both worlds. You can hold keys in that SPV wallet (if you're fine keeping them on a HDD - same as if using Bitcoin Core). Or you use a hardware wallet.

If you're really paranoid, I highly recommend building a SeedSigner, getting some casino dice and generating true randomness, then giving it to the offline signer. It will spit out a QR code that you can write down as well as seed words. You can import it as watch-only into Sparrow and also import addresses into Bitcoin Core. If you use Sparrow, just set it to only ever connect to your own node.

When there is need to send funds, you turn on the signer, import the seed, scan the transaction and send it off.

[BlackHatCoiner]

How do you keep this file safe, and what if all physical copies become lost due floods, fires, thieves

I'd buy myself an SD card, save it there and then hide it; it's tiny and lasts for a long time. Another way would be to encrypt it and save it to as many clouds as possible, including my hard drives. Then, I'd only have to write down an other kind of seed phrase.

government bans it and becomes extremely anti Bitcoin and seizes all physical drives if they find any links of you owning or having ever owned crypto, or you trying to cross a border where you get your stuff cloned (already happening in airports) etc.

If the government becomes extremely anti-Bitcoin, I'll rather know how will I keep myself safe.

You could upload it somewhere online, encrypting the file inside and encrypted file, but then you are trusting no one finds this file, because if they find it, they can have a physical copy with all the time in the world to either attempt to bruteforce or wait for an exploit of the algorithm used to encrypt it in order to access the files.

Probably the latter if you meant "to decrypt it". ECIES isn't broken.

[n0nce]

How do you keep this file safe, and what if all physical copies become lost due floods, fires, thieves

I'd buy myself an SD card, save it there and then hide it; it's tiny and lasts for a long time. Another way would be to encrypt it and save it to as many clouds as possible, including my hard drives. Then, I'd only have to write down an other kind of seed phrase.

Unfortunately, they do not last for a long time. I use SD cards a lot and they've failed me a few times, without very heavy usage. In my opinion they're fine for backups that are easy and quick to make and to restore, like implemented in the BitBox or Passport, but only supplementary to a written seed. Otherwise it's too risky for my taste. If someone does want to rely on SD cards, keep in mind there are the 'SanDisk Industrial' ones that Passport uses and might be worth considering.

I just had a little look online and it appears that SD cards have more risk than other flash storage due to exposure to ESD which builds up for instance by plugging them in and out. Worth keeping in mind when it comes to storage (anti-static bags maybe).

[NeuroticFish]

If you use Bitcoin Core as wallet, how do you keep your keys safe?

Im not comfortable with anything but Bitcoin Core including to manage keys and im sure im not the only one. The problem is keeping the wallet.dat file safe, specially on an scenario were physical copies can be lost.

An Electrum user can

Well, I've made the mix that keeps safe my keys and my privacy too^*: I have Bitcoin Core, on top of it I have an Electrum server, hence I use Electrum with a hardware wallet. Might sound a bit complicated, but it's fun. And then the problem is solved by the backup seed.

For your actual problem I see another solution: always save on paper the address and the private key for the one address (or few addresses) containing the bulk of the funds. Those will stay safely in geographically separated locations. Best for anti-hack security would be those even come from a completely different wallet.dat (which you'll destroy/wipe).
And for the rest, for the money moving often, you can use electronic means of storage (USB stick, SD card, ..) preferably at least 2 copies.


^* Actually, tbh, for some reasons, including laziness, I am not yet 100% there, but soon^TM...

[n0nce]

If you use Bitcoin Core as wallet, how do you keep your keys safe?

Im not comfortable with anything but Bitcoin Core including to manage keys and im sure im not the only one. The problem is keeping the wallet.dat file safe, specially on an scenario were physical copies can be lost.

An Electrum user can

Well, I've made the mix that keeps safe my keys and my privacy too^*: I have Bitcoin Core, on top of it I have an Electrum server, hence I use Electrum with a hardware wallet. Might sound a bit complicated, but it's fun. And then the problem is solved by the backup seed.

Exactly, it's not even that complicated and it gives you a lot of freedom since any component can be changed a little according to preference.

Code:

               LAPTOP/
  NODE         PC/PHONE
┌───────┐     ┌───────┐
│electrs│◄─┬──┤Sparrow├─┐
├───────┤  │  │       │ │  ┌────────┐
│Bitcoin│  │  └───────┘ └─►│HARDWARE├───┬───►Paper Backup
│ Core  │  │               │ WALLET │   │
└───────┘  │  ┌────────┐ ┌►└────────┘   ├───►Laminated Paper
           └──┤Electrum│ │              │
              │        ├─┘              └───►Steel Backup
              └────────┘

[DaveF]

Encrypted renamed file works for me. wallet.dat becomes hookernamesandnumbers.txt
Then use any one of many utilities out there to password encrypt the file (that is already password protected right???) and you can store it on any usb drive you want.

*Others have recommended sd cards. I prefer regular USB sticks as just about every PC you can find has a usb port.

-Dave

[Lucius]

An Electrum user can have physical backups and an extra layer of protection by remembering the seed, so worst case scenario, if everything is lost, you still have the chance to spawn your wallet with the 24 words. However, with Bitcoin Core you are limited to the wallet.dat

I would never rely on remembering a seed in terms of some extra protection, because as most people know, the human brain is not very suitable for storing such sensitive information. In the event of an accident or illness, our brain or memory can be damaged, which unfortunately can happen to anyone at any time. In addition, Electrum gives us 12 words, not 24.

Having multiple copies in different physical locations requires that you either trust someone else which I don't, or you own other properties which which a government will know you own anyway. Unless you are insane enough to bury a copy in in the middle of nowhere, but then again, someone could find it. Construction workers, random people, scavenging animals, etc etc. Not to mention there are cameras everywhere nowadays.

There is no answer that would offer an ideal solution, every way of saving backups that are publicly discussed has its shortcomings that you yourself have detected. I would therefore recommend that you include imagination and be as creative as possible in the process, which means that each new day can bring some new ideas. If you want to save your backup in different locations, and you do not trust the people who live in these locations, protect your backup with a passphrase (extra word - password) as an addition to the existing seed - and let this passphrase be an additional safeguard. Without it the seed will generate a brand new wallet with new addresses.

[takuma sato]

Im not comfortable with anything but Bitcoin Core including to manage keys.

Why, though? Apparently, you're not comfortable with Bitcoin Core either. Every wallet has its upsides and drawbacks. For me, the biggest drawback of SPV wallets is simply that they don't verify the full chain. However, if you pair an SPV wallet (that gives you seed words to easily back up) with a self-hosted Bitcoin Core node, you do get the best of both worlds. You can hold keys in that SPV wallet (if you're fine keeping them on a HDD - same as if using Bitcoin Core). Or you use a hardware wallet.

If you're really paranoid, I highly recommend building a SeedSigner, getting some casino dice and generating true randomness, then giving it to the offline signer. It will spit out a QR code that you can write down as well as seed words. You can import it as watch-only into Sparrow and also import addresses into Bitcoin Core. If you use Sparrow, just set it to only ever connect to your own node.

When there is need to send funds, you turn on the signer, import the seed, scan the transaction and send it off.

You should use Bitcoin Core as a wallet too and fully avoid SPV. I have always thought Luke Jr was right from the start, including block size, even tho is not practical to decrease it anymore.

How do you keep this file safe, and what if all physical copies become lost due floods, fires, thieves

I'd buy myself an SD card, save it there and then hide it; it's tiny and lasts for a long time. Another way would be to encrypt it and save it to as many clouds as possible, including my hard drives. Then, I'd only have to write down an other kind of seed phrase.

Unfortunately, they do not last for a long time. I use SD cards a lot and they've failed me a few times, without very heavy usage. In my opinion they're fine for backups that are easy and quick to make and to restore, like implemented in the BitBox or Passport, but only supplementary to a written seed. Otherwise it's too risky for my taste. If someone does want to rely on SD cards, keep in mind there are the 'SanDisk Industrial' ones that Passport uses and might be worth considering.

I just had a little look online and it appears that SD cards have more risk than other flash storage due to exposure to ESD which builds up for instance by plugging them in and out. Worth keeping in mind when it comes to storage (anti-static bags maybe).

Even SSDs aren't a good idea for long term storage, including USB pendrives; HDD is still recommended. Of course, it begs the question: how do you even hide an HDD properly if needed.

Personally im moving my tax residence to a "crypto friendly" country ASAP and stablish my "bunker" there and hope the most f*cked up scenario in which even the "crypto friendly" countries get coerced into joining the supranational decision makers of how storing private keys is now illegal. At least I will buy some time to decide what to do. For now it is what it is. I don't see a way to store a Bitcoin Core wallet any other way but to have your HDDs in jurisdictions were they will not confiscate your stuff anytime soon.

Mdisk (millenium disks) may be a good long term storage backup too assuming it is possible to safely store data while being able to edit it which I doubt it's possible. Ages ago I remember using "DirectCD" software to edit CDroms, having some sort of "opened session", but this introduced further problems.