Bitcoin has no intrinsic value

[e-lite.io]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

[n0nce]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

There is no definitive answer to this. Otherwise nobody would invest in anything else anymore, right. My advice is to do your own research and decide for yourself if you believe Bitcoin is a project that has a prosperous future or if it's doomed to fail.

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.

Everything could 'potentially lose all its value', the reason for that is rarely that it 'generates value', though. That sentence makes absolutely no sense.

Who assures you that this will not happen?

Nobody assures this will not happen. Nobody. This is freedom money. Free market and that's pretty much it.

Feel free to read the whitepaper, it's a relatively short and enjoyable read.

I'm misquoting satoshi here, but I like this sentence:

If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.

[mk4]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

The "best" way to invest your money is subjective, and will differ depending on personal situation.

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.

It technically could, just like how your business could technically end up being bankrupt and the business stock you invested in going bankrupt.

Who assures you that this will not happen?

Nothing. There's no such thing as guarantees with anything.

[franky1]

real value is where there has been some real hard labour cost put into the assets creation/acquisition, whereby people refuse to sell at a loss because there is real cost involved.  in that loss.

gold is only $1,800 instead of just $1 because it costs over $900 instead of $0.50 to mine it.

a $200k house is based on all the bricklaying and plumbing and modernisation updates being around $100k of costs.

understand that the speculative price is not the same as value. and that price is usually above value within a safe amount to still be deemed as within value.
..
however when things 'bubble', is when the PRICE (not to be confused with underlying value) when the speculative price is pushed out to a random number that has no bases of stability or rational thought.
EG when a house build cost was $100k but they are trying to market it for $5million.. that is a market bubble. and not sustainable.
houses being sold way above value is a signal that there will be a market crash.
...
take most POS coins. assuming there is 46,000 people 'validating' POS blocks
now assume there are ~2 coins mined per block every 15 seconds.
meaning 480 a hour, meaning 11520 a day, meaning 46,000 in 4 days

this suggesting each person probably gets 2 coin every 8 days

that makes their coin have an underlying cost of 96hours of passive computer time per coin. which at say 0.04/kwh puts an average desktop computer at half that cost of electric(500w). meaning 2cents per hour or $1.92 cost for mining POS on a popular coin with many thousands of people validating(mining)

well. what i have described is Ethereum after its 'detonation'.. whereby it shifts over from POW to POS
so although Ether while on POW has a mining cost of over $2000. when it switches to POW its value turns into $2

so watch Ethers value plummet by atleast 1000x
..
however bitcoins 'value' sits at a bottomline value of $30k(including the hardware costs) because right now the cheapest you cam mine bitcoin anywhere on the planet is about $30k. the most expensive electric cost using latest gen asic hardware costs included is about $70k

this value window of $30k-$70k. and then seeing that bitcoin PRICE sits happily within this value window shows that bitcoin is a good store of value, without having much of a hyper inflated bubble of speculations pushing the price way outside the value limits.

but with that said. bitcoin could lose hashrate competition and next gen miners could be more efficient which could bring the cost value down and thus cause the price to come down too.. but this is less probable compared to the known drop ether is about to experience soon

[Poker Player]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

If you are going to claim that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, you would do well to explain why it does not. To me you've seen it written somewhere without stopping to think much about what it means.

I've seen several reasons to defend that, such as it doesn't produce cash flows, or that it's not backed by any government. In general, the arguments used are garbage. In the first case, we can see that there are many things that don't produce cash flows and do have intrinsic value, such as a mansion you live in that is worth $10M. The second is laughable, because the currencies backed by the government we can see that they have value but decreasing value that tends to 0, something that we can see taken to the extreme in economies that end up dollarizing as in South America. And on the other hand, if that were the case, gold would not have any value either because it is not backed by governments.

I think there are more arguments, but instead of trying to show why they are wrong I will go to the positive part. Bitcoin, yes it has intrinsic value because:

1) It is the best invention we have to store and transfer value, especially in medium and large amounts.
2) It is scarce, and with a total limit to its production.

[pooya87]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Forget best or worse, bitcoin is not even an investment. Bitcoin is a currency and as the only existing decentralized censorship resistant payment system it offers a lot of utilities for people all around the world and utility means intrinsic value.

That's been the biggest problem newbies have been facing, bitcoin is advertised to them as an investment that will give them a lot of money out of thin air! Everywhere they look there is only talks about the price, how much it has gone up or how much it can go up. Unfortunately many of you guys don't bother doing any research yourselves either to see what the hell this Bitcoin you are buying is!

[Jawhead999]

Bitcoin do have intrinsic value, you can't generate Bitcoin freely without any cost since you need to mine using mining rigs, electricity, and the other maintenance cost. It's different with Bitcoin's value; the use case, decentralize, no one control, widely used, etc. Also it's different with Bitcoin's price as we can see on any exchanges the price is around $40K.

Bitcoin could become worthless if there's another better technology comes up, but... I don't see any crypto or technology which better than Bitcoin until now.

[UmerIdrees]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

Government issues paper money by putting gold as a reserve in most cases but these days the printer is just printing the money without any mechanism causing extreme inflation. May I ask you who will assure that this excess printing of fiat money should not happen?

This shows that even the assurances by the government are useless and fake. So better do not look for assurances but look at the bitcoin model. There is no flaw in the bitcoin model and it's hard to believe its demand could go down when there is too much inflation on the alternative currency (fiat money).

[franky1]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Forget best or worse, bitcoin is not even an investment. Bitcoin is a currency and as the only existing decentralized censorship resistant payment system it offers a lot of utilities for people all around the world and utility means intrinsic value.

sidenote. im keeping this quote for later use when pooya wants to advertise his favoured altnet while saying bitcoin utility cant cope as a currency (contradition)

anyways...
value and values are two different terms.. the term with the 's' (values) is the utility and feature, benefits. the term without the 's' is a financial measure

bitcoins values(features utility and benefit) have many.
bitcoins value (financial) is not just some random number. its actually based on actual things. and due to mining and other things. it has less chance of 'going to zero' than many POS coins.

POS coins have little to no value or values. but POW coins have value. and in some cases of pow altcoins have values too. but bitcoin has the most of both

That's been the biggest problem newbies have been facing, bitcoin is advertised to them as an investment that will give them a lot of money out of thin air!

i agree its not money out of thin air. there is actually alot of economics going on..
yes advertising bitcoin as 'to the moon' and '$100k in 2021/2 or $1m by 2023 is silly exaggerated advertising that needs to stop. because thats just hyping up bitcoin and trying to promise long term possibilities as things that are (falsely) promised to happen short term

. but this is where people need to learn about the VALUE and not the PRICE.
i personally never care for the day-to-day price speculation. i prefer to look at the store of value window ongoing which moves up at a more steady pace.
EG the $4k-$20k window of 2018 now being the $30k-$70k window of 2022

we will not reach $100k in 2022 nor $1m by 2023, but those PRICES may happen in a more distant future. as long as idiots dont try tarnishing/hinder/stifle bitcoin utility to try offramping people to other networks. by claiming that bitcoin cant work as a currency..
but if bitcoin was to actually get back to its 2009-2015 plan of growing and scaling THE BITCOIN network. bitcoin has the better chance of achieving higher store of value numbers.

(subtle hint how you(pooya) are part of the group that wants to claim bitcoin is useless as a currency and people should play on other networks!!(facepalm))

[davis196]

OP,you sound kinda butthurt.Did you get scammed or something?
Your post doesn't make any sense.

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.

This doesn't make any sense.Bitcoin doesn't "generate value" by itself.The value of Bitcoin is determined by the mining costs and the supply/demand for Bitcoins.
Bitcoin gets more expensive,but it might get worthless some day.Yes,and so what.This applies to every financial asset around the world(maybe except gold).Do you think that Tesla,Amazon,Facebook,Apple stocks won't become worthless some day?Nothing lasts forever.
The "Bitcoin doesn't have instrinsic value" mantra that has been repeated by all the BTC haters have gotten completely meaningless at this point.Repeating the mantra one more time won't make it meaningful.

[pooya87]

sidenote. im keeping this quote for later use when pooya wants to advertise his favoured altnet while saying bitcoin utility cant cope as a currency (contradition)

I love how you always sneak your own messed up opinion about LN into every conversation

i agree its not money out of thin air. there is actually alot of economics going on..
yes advertising bitcoin as 'to the moon' and '$100k in 2021/2 or $1m by 2023 is silly exaggerated advertising that needs to stop. because thats just hyping up bitcoin and trying to promise long term possibilities as things that are (falsely) promised to happen short term

The problem is now just the speculation but it is the fact that price is the ONLY thing we see being discussed about bitcoin. For example if you go to r/bitcoin it is all memes and price and very little is discussed about the technology if at all.

(subtle hint how you(pooya) are part of the group that wants to claim bitcoin is useless as a currency and people should play on other networks!!(facepalm))

Funny thing is that I have only seen you make these statements not anybody else!
I personally believe that bitcoin blocks need to scale to match the increasing demand but at the same time LN as a second layer "bitcoin network" is offering very useful utilities that the blockchain can never offer.

[franky1]

Funny thing is that I have only seen you make these statements not anybody else!
I personally believe that bitcoin blocks need to scale to match the increasing demand but at the same time LN as a second layer "bitcoin network" is offering very useful utilities that the blockchain can never offer.

BITCOIN is the network with the blockchain.. you cannot take bitcoins off the bitcoin network. thats the whole premiss, promise and security of bitcoin. the blockchain secures bitcoins to the blockchain..
and YOU literally in the same paragraph of saying you never said anything bad about bitcoin, ended the same paragraph by saying in your silly minded view that bitcoin(the actual bitcoin blockchain network) 'can never offer'

LN is a different network .. the HINT is in the meaning of the N in LN
LN does not even use satoshis' it makes payments and accounts for fee costs in millisats. using a message format that the bitcoin network cannot even understand

so please stop deluding yourself and others that your altnet is the proposition people should shift over to by stop using the bitcoin network

grow up and actually learn what the bitcoin network is. and then learn that other networks pretending to be bitcoin are not bitcoin.

LN is a separate network that allows promises of future settlements of MULTIPLE currencies.
LN is not a bitcoin thing. LN is a multi asset thing.

LN is not a bitcoin layer(like a skin of an orange fruit... its a hybrid tree branch connecting multiple fruit together.)
or if you want a different analogy. its not a bitcoin highway.. its a bridge to a different nation where diversity happens where everyone has to 'ride share' and no one can independently own their own vehicle solo on this separate nation

oh and by you disliking the whole 'bitcoin should not be used for 'coffee/donation' amounts. well then the unbanked people earning say $2 in 3 days are not going to be able to buy bitcoin to then lock up to then play with the LN promissory notes (LN smart contracts are a promise without the settlement aspect)

as for your obsession with the altnets.. just check your post history for endless examples of you advertising LN.. heck you even advertised it here with your silly uptopian falsehoods.

LN is at best a niche side service. its not a unque bitcoin only feature. its not even the same network as bitcoin not the same unit of measure as bitcoin. plus it just doesnt work to scale

imagine that wiki wanted to accept LN balance. they would need to set up either thousands of small balance channels with regular donators. whereby those donators have to also allow some of their locked balance to be used by others routers. or they would need to fiund a LARGE channel partner that can cope with many thousands of users routing through them.. in both cases it does not work in the real world..

as for you pretending you have never suggested that people should stop using bitcoin for the donation/coffee/small amounts billions of people find essential amounts..
again check your post history.. here is just one of many examples

Buy $20 chunks as often as you can, pay no heed to the price. Ditch your daily $5 Coffee - that's $150 of Bitcoin per month, stop the pizza delivery, buy $15 of BTC instead.

This is the only good advice in your whole post.

your major problem is that when you imagine people talking about scaling BITCOIN. and wanting to donate or buy small price items with BITCOIN.. your brain does not understand the meaning of BITCOIN and instead your brain diverges into thinking about your other network which you pretend is bitcoin.

[Artemis3]

Nothing has intrinsic value. Value is subjective.

People who don't understand bitcoin, often have not read about the Austrian School of Economy.

[_act_]

Bitcoin has no intrinsic value

Try and change the title because it gives wrong information about bitcoin. Bitcoin is an asset, it is digitally created but it has an intrinsic value.

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

I can not say it is the best way to invest but it is one of the ways to earn passive profits. Just hold, leave it for long time and make profit from it.

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

If early adopters were thinking like this, they will not buy bitcoin and nothing will be like institutions that are now investing in bitcoin. If institutions are also thinking like this now, they will not also invest.

[Mauser]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.

Who assures you that this will not happen?

The exact same goes for Gold, Silver and other precious commodities. If people would stop using them for making jewelry and don't look at them as a save way to store money than the price would be a complete other. It all depends on supply and demand, and what investors think the price should be in the future. The exact same thing holds for bitcoins and other crypto currencies. As long as there are other investors who believe in their value we will have an active market to buy and sell cryptos. Just one investor will make sure that Bitcoins don't become worthless. Just imagine a new very big gold mine is being created increasing the gold supply by x2, the price would drop overnight. With bitcoins that can't happen, we can't just find a big supply nobody have heard of overnight. The limited supply of bitcoins is what makes it so valuable.

[Fortify]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

You could really say the same about any fiat currency. They are all just units of value we use to exchange for goods or services at a later point. Now, Bitcoin is a lot more volatile than most fiat currencies so that is where the distinction really comes into play. If you woke up tomorrow and discovered that the savings in your bank account could only buy 80% of what they bought yesterday, you'd likely be very annoyed. It can go up in value as well, but people generally like stability and consistency. I have a feeling that for Bitcoin at least it will improve over time as the amount of holders goes up and this should bring the volatility down. It's actually rather useful having a global currency that does not have to sit between the whims of local exchange banks.

[GeorgeJohn]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

it depends on what you understand bitcoin as. I don't think that Bitcoin can just become worthless in future time without the signs indicating its irrelevant of future devalues.. some people kicking against that bitcoin is not an asset, so what is bitcoin, is very obvious that some asset become disvalue in reference time but it will take long periods such will happen.. using gold as illustration, before was threading in the market, but right now it has it limitations, because it potentials and firm has reduced because of existence of bitcoin, so before bitcoin can be worthless another thing that is greater than bitcoin will be into existence.

[mindrust]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

Nobody said bitcoin is the only and the best way to invest your money. You got that part wrong. You may decide to invest 1-2% of your total wealth and still be a crypto investor.

Your concerns are well grounded however. Bitcoin may indeed evaporate tomorrow without leaving a trace. It is written (or used to be, haven't checked the domain for a while) on the bitcoin.org website. It is experimental tech which nobody knows how it is going to end up.

Just because stocks went up higher during the last decade you don't invest 100% into stocks. You diversify.

[someone703]

Is it really the best way to invest your money?

Because of the way Bitcoin generates value or becomes more expensive, it could potentially lose all its value and became worthless.
Who assures you that this will not happen?

I think it's a matter of perception for each person. When they may not accept the fact that it creates economic value, denying the things that BTC brings will not help you progress if you keep your perspective. At that point, Let's put yourself in the situation and assume that you are assuming. It just comes back to extreme negative when it declares BTC to be worthless. I'm curious if you invested in it or not and profited. Or how about a loss? I am also very neutral about many things that it brings, but I admit that I have earned money to pay for my current life. The difference here you may not realize, but do not think negatively. It's a problem that many people are very satisfied or happy with what it has created.

[Western_Boris]

Your concerns are well grounded however. Bitcoin may indeed evaporate tomorrow without leaving a trace. It is written (or used to be, haven't checked the domain for a while) on the bitcoin.org website. It is experimental tech which nobody knows how it is going to end up.

Just because stocks went up higher during the last decade you don't invest 100% into stocks. You diversify.

1. Bitcoin is not experimental. It has been around 13 years, it runs on open source code which means that anyone can check the code and verify how it operates. Every single line of code. So there is zero question marks about how it operates and on what rules it operates. Also, it does not operate on any website. It operates on those thousands of machines that keep up the one and only Bitcoin blockchain.

2.1. Bitcoin could evaporate? No. Bitcoin runs on thousands of miners and nodes around the world. To be able to disappear, all these machines would need to be destroyed and people running them to be killed. Or else we can just run it on new machines. So this evaporating is kind of impossible to achieve.

2.2 If you mean by evaporating that it's price could go to zero tomorrow, again you need to think more about what would need to happen for that to become reality. Bitcoins price comes from supply and demand. And as long as there is demand (buyers) the price cannot go to zero. So price to go to zero there would need to be suddenly ZERO people in the whole planet who wants to buy Bitcoin. How would that happen? Only way would be if something better money gets invented and we have nothing better in the world at the moment. And even if we invent something better in lets say 200 years, it would be slow transition taking years from older monetary system to the new one. Just like it takes years now to move from fiat standard to Bitcoin standard.