Using lightning for bitcoin low fee on exchanges

[Oshosondy]

To avoid confusion between exchange withdrawal fee and bitcoin transaction fee, bitcoin transaction fee is not high like the exorbitant withdrawal fee charged by centralized exchanges.

The withdrawal fee at exchanges is not so much related to the network fee.
While a normal (1 input 2 outputs) transaction costs under 300 satoshi now, while during the week don't really go higher than 2500 satoshi, Binance, one the cheapest options, charges you 40000 (!) satoshi.
And they can easily combine multiple withdrawals to lower the fee/person (also that's why you'll probably see bigger total fees).

2500 sat equals to 0.000025 BTC.
If bitcoin price is presently $40000. The fee will be 40000 multiply by 0.000025 which is equals to $1. The fee depends on the present price of bitcoin, the mempool and the number of input and output. In conclusion, bitcoin transaction fee is not high like people think, exchanges charges than normal.


This is just about having control. Some people use centralized exchange to buy bitcoin, after they buy bitcoin, to send it to wallet become difficult for them because they do not want to spend over $25 or more on exchange withdrawal fee for bitcoin which is very high. Because of this, some people will prefer other options like the lightning network. There are other alternatives like the ERC20 (high fee too), BSC, BS and many others which have low fee but which are not bitcoin, they are all altcoins, the only real alternative is lightning network. Bitcoin transaction fee on exchanges are very high than usual.

According to a research which may or may not be accurate enough but show the true fact that lightning network adoption is increasing, there has been significant increase in the number of users that is using lightning network, much significant increase since 2021. Lightning network users increase from 150000 users in August 2021 to over 80 million users in March 2022 with increase in lightning payment transaction volume.

 

Detailed report
https://assets.ctfassets.net/4rilomtvvae4/3wrBvznCykPAohtwhCGmfE/9ab5a76cce470cc65a656b896d2300fb/The_State_of_Lightning_Vol_2.pdf

People can use lightning network for low fee and fast transaction. People can use it to transfer from a crypto exchange to lightning channel on noncustododial wallet with low fee, the person can decide to transfer the bitcoin to blockchain bitcoin address by closing the channel after transferring from an exchange. This can be done on wallets like electrum.

A Beginner's guideline to Bitcoin Lightning Network
Electrum Lightning Network Walkthrough

But for simplified option, wallets like Bluewallet is a good option.

But only few major exchange are still supporting lightning network. Binance, Coinbase and FTX are not yet supporting lightning network. which is the only way that bitcoin can be withdrawn on exchanges for low fee. But few exchanges are supporting lightning network.

Having total control
On centralized exchanges, you can not have total control, you do not have the keys, you account can be freezed, locked or blocked, there can be maintainance issues and no available option for withdrawal for some time and many other issues someone can face on centralized exchanges. You can be forced to get verified on the exchange. The exchanges can be hacked. This are good reasons we should not leave bitcoin on exchanges. If you want to withdraw low amount of bitcoin and the withdrawal fee is too high for you, you can use lightning network which is good for this purpose.

What to do if the exchange you are using is not supporting lightning network
If the exchange you are using is not supporting lightning network, there is no better option than to leave such exchange, but if you like the service of the exchange and because of trustworthiness, you can decide to open another trustworthy exchange that support lightning network, send using the altcoin like BSC to the exchange, then send the bitcoin using lightning network to a noncustododial wallet. You can close the channel and move the coin to a blockchain address.

No complete control on centralized exchanges
Because some people are traders like scalpers, day traders and position traders. Some people prefer to use centralized exchanges for bitcoin purchase which is not advisable but they keep on doing it. If a trader is not using his bitcoin to trade or if he had make profit already, or someone that purchase bitcoin, they should all move the coin to a noncustododial wallet to have complete control. But the best way to buy bitcoin is to use decentralized exchanges like bisq or localcryptos, using a decentralized exchange will make the bitcoin to be transferred from a noncustododial wallet address to your noncustododial wallet address without the need of a centralized exchange and KYC.


Lists of bitcoin lightning network exchanges

[1714669185]

1714669185

[1714669185]

1714669185

[yazher]

Whatever exchanges supported low-cost transaction fees with bitcoins using the lightning networks, it would become essential to traders that are saving and maximizing their profits. Imagine you are transacting with fast and low-cost transaction fees compared to other exchanges where getting your bitcoins from their exchanges is almost impossible when you have a small amount there because the minimum withdrawal and the fees are high. Exchanges like that are highly preferred and you don't need to convert your BTC to any other altcoins such as XRP, TRON, and others just to save transaction fees which we often do when transacting from exchanges to our local exchanges.

[Cookdata]

There was already an open similar discussion on why some centralized exchanges are yet to implement Lightning Network and many key points were discussed.

Bitcoin transaction fee on exchanges are very high than usual.

I just got this image from the net, the last month web traffic of centralized exchanges, the two leading exchanges are Binance and Coinbase, it is not all the users that may have withdrawn through bitcoin but imagine if one-third of that population waste $20 on bitcoin withdrawals, that's gigantic money for them.
The reason why  I see the call for LN adoption by centralized exchanges could be that they are trying to get the attention of users who have been wasting much on fees on big exchanges and that's cool, who knows Binance and Coinbase may change their mind to increase the adoption.

People can use lightning network for low fee and fast transaction. People can use it to transfer from a crypto exchange to lightning channel on noncustododial wallet with low fee, the person can decide to transfer the bitcoin to blockchain bitcoin address by closing the channel after transferring from an exchange. This can be done on wallets like electrum.

There is no point in opening and closing channels all the time, one can save fees by using one and use it as long as you want, you cant run attempt to play foul in LN

[franky1]

unless there are 80million channels.. i call BS

here is the thing.. either "cashapp" is the custodian of coin without each customer having any control via their own keys..
meaning there are not 80 million customers using LN..
or
there are 80million channels set up with 'cashapp' via a hieracrchy of hub middlemen routers with ascending liquidity the closer to 'cashapp' they get..  and they are all bottlenecked due to liquidity problems of some of the hub middlemen constantly running out of funds to forward to cashapp.

either way. im calling BS on the fake news that there are 80million LN users


EG if 10,000,000 people want to forward $10 each towards 'cashapp'

in say a 3 'hop' middleman scenario

Level1 from 'cashapp'
cashapp would need either:
a. 100 hub partners with funding locks of $1m each
b. 1000 hub partners with funding locks of $100k each
c. 10000 hub partners with funding locks of $10k each

Level2 from 'cashapp'
those level1 partners would need either:
a. 100 hub partners with funding locks of $10k each
b. 1000 hub partners with funding locks of $100 each
c. 1000 hub partners (which are the customers) with funding locks of $10 each

Level3 from 'cashapp'
those level 2 partners would need either:
a. 100 hub partners with funding locks of $100 each
b. 10 hub partners (which are the customers) with funding locks of $10 each

Level4 from 'cashapp'
those level 2 partners would need either:
a. 10 hub partners (which are the customers) with funding locks of $10 each

sorry but if you check all the actual stats. there is not that much volume of liquidity. nor is there that many channels nor that many nodes to even come close to even just 10m users of just $10 each to spend per channel session

so i call BS

..
oh and by the way. LN uses multisig meaning the channel partner still needs to sign. meaning the channel partner can still 'freeze' channels. by simply refusing to 'route' payments meaning people dont get their funds out from exchanges like cashapp. simply because the cashapp/partners dont sign value to the customer.. . and thus the customer having a balance with 0 in their favour does not mean they can just broadcast a commitment and get the funds. because they are not signed over to them in the first place.

[Oshosondy]

There is no point in opening and closing channels all the time, one can save fees by using one and use it as long as you want, you cant run attempt to play foul in LN

The reason for the successful use of lightning network is because you can open a channel and later close it. To avoid issue, it is good to close a channel if you do not want to stay active on the channel for like 2 weeks or more, but if you leave the channel open and you visit it often, there is no need to close it. But another reason some people may want to close a channel is because the amount of coin on it might have grown large and see a need to move their coin to an address on hardware wallet or any other cold wallet.

either way. im calling BS on the fake news that there are 80million LN users

The news is about people that are using lightning network, not people that sertup lightning nodes, some people see it easy to use a lightning channel on a centralized lightning network wallet, though that is not recommendable at all but the people are using lightning network anyway.

It is just a news, we know how news can mislead someone, I just used it to let people know how lightning network adoption is increasing, but I focused my topic on how to use it on noncustododial wallet and using lightning network on electrum as recommendation and included a guide of how they can use it to open and close a channel which is the reason for this topic in a way they can use it to withdraw from exchanges that support it and use it to send the bitcoin to an address generated by the electrum wallet.

[tranthidung]

You can use Bitcoin non custodial wallet and pick a good time within a week, a day to make your transaction. It will help you to save transaction fee by having a plan for your transactions.

Depending on centralized exchanges is bad, no matter you use Bitcoin Native or Segwit addresses or Lightning Network. You don't actually control your coins and transaction fee by setting up fee rate you want.

• Bitcoin transaction fees (in sats/kb). Sunday, Saturday are best to move BTC
• Check with Jochen-hoenicke.de

[NeuroticFish]

But only few major exchange are still supporting lightning network. Binance, Coinbase and FTX are not yet supporting lightning network. which is the only way that bitcoin can be withdrawn on exchanges for low fee. But few exchanges are supporting lightning network.

The withdrawal fee at exchanges is not so much related to the network fee.
While a normal (1 input 2 outputs) transaction costs under 300 satoshi now, while during the week don't really go higher than 2500 satoshi, Binance, one the cheapest options, charges you 40000 (!) satoshi.
And they can easily combine multiple withdrawals to lower the fee/person (also that's why you'll probably see bigger total fees).

I don't have too big expectations the fees will get as low as you'd expect if these platforms go for LN. It's their profit we're talking about here.
So LN can help on speed, maybe a bit in the transactions fees too, but I would not expect wonders.

[Oshosondy]

Depending on centralized exchanges is bad, no matter you use Bitcoin Native or Segwit addresses or Lightning Network. You don't actually control your coins and transaction fee by setting up fee rate you want.

This is the reason for this topic, for people to know they should not leave coins on exchange, for people that uses custodial wallet to buy and also traders with inactive bitcoin on exchanges and having the issue of high withdrawal fee. Withdrawal to those low withdrawal fee options on exchanges are altcoins like on BSC network. Only lightning network gives the option of low fee. The bitcoin can be moved to blockchain by closing the channel after the withdrawal with lightning network.

I don't have too big expectations the fees will get as low as you'd expect if these platforms go for LN. It's their profit we're talking about here.
So LN can help on speed, maybe a bit in the transactions fees too, but I would not expect wonders.

The fee is as low as I am expecting. The altcoin like on BSC network can be used to send from exchanges that do not support lightning network to an exchange that supports it. Example is sending from Binance to OKX, OKX support lightning network which can be used for it. All the fee used are still low.

That is true, bitcoin transaction fee is low, I used exchange withdrawal fee because I know it is not bitcoin transaction fee, exchange withdrawal fee is bitcoin transaction fee + extra but large amount charged by exchanges. The mempool hasn't been that congested since last year.

[NeuroticFish]

Depending on centralized exchanges is bad, no matter you use Bitcoin Native or Segwit addresses or Lightning Network. You don't actually control your coins and transaction fee by setting up fee rate you want.

This is the reason for this topic, for people to know they should not leave coins on exchange

Yet you don't explain clearly in the top post the difference (I see you know very good) between withdrawal fees and transaction fees, helping the exchanges hide their fees by telling it's the transaction fee.
Even more, you give the impression the on-chain fees are big, which is incorrect. Expecting the average Joe get LN only to withdraw from exchanges may be a bit much...

I don't have too big expectations the fees will get as low as you'd expect if these platforms go for LN. It's their profit we're talking about here.
So LN can help on speed, maybe a bit in the transactions fees too, but I would not expect wonders.

The fee is as low as I am expecting. The altcoin like on BSC network can be used to send from exchanges that do not support lightning network to an exchange that supports it. Example is sending from Binance to OKX, OKX support lightning network which can be used for it. All the fee used are still low.

That is true, bitcoin transaction fee is low, I used exchange withdrawal fee because I know it is not bitcoin transaction fee, exchange withdrawal fee is bitcoin transaction fee + extra but large amount charged by exchanges. The mempool hasn't been that congested since last year.

Using altcoins (from Dogecoin or XRP to stable coins or the more exotic wrapped BTC flavors) was always an option for transferring value between exchanges. But it may not be the best point here and now. One should learn to withdraw Bitcoin on Bitcoin blockchain (or maybe LN) into his own Bitcoin wallet and keep them there safely. "Not your keys, not your coins".
Also comparing withdrawal fees between Bitcoin network and various altcoins is comparing apples with oranges, because exchanges have always had the bigger fees on Bitcoin, so they can keep the real coins in their reserves while the plebs will play with shitcoins.

[suzanne5223]

This is just about having control. Some people use centralized exchange to buy bitcoin, after they buy bitcoin, to send it to wallet become difficult for them because they do not want to spend over $25 or more on exchange withdrawal fee for bitcoin which is very high.

This is the reason it is important to know about all exchanges withdrawal fees and despite how good Binance was, it is one of the worse exchanges to withdraw BTC because the fee is ridiculous.

Because of this, some people will prefer other options like the lightning network.

That's lightning network prevents them from paying ridiculous which some CEX use as a means to make more money out of their user.
There are some CEX that supported lightning networks and their some DEX either for those that prefer privacy.

Bitcoin transaction fee on exchanges are very high than usual.

Not in all exchanges cause, there are still some CEX that accept $5 in BTC for a withdrawal fee.

[Oshosondy]

Yet you don't explain clearly in the top post the difference (I see you know very good) between withdrawal fees and transaction fees, helping the exchanges hide their fees by telling it's the transaction fee.
Even more, you give the impression the on-chain fees are big, which is incorrect. Expecting the average Joe get LN only to withdraw from exchanges may be a bit much...

I have understood what you are saying, I have edited it. Quoting you makes it easier for me.

[franky1]

sily thing is people are not understanding how LN works..
emphasis.
there are not 80,000,000 channels. meaning 80,000,000 are not using LN
instead their value is loaded into cashapp custody 100% where occasionally people can ask for a withdrawal via LN, via a separate partnership/contract

the thing is. when you decide you want to withdraw from caspapp to a LN balance, your not withdrawing to "your keys" but to a partnership where it requires someone elses signature to authorise payments. meaning your still beholden to a third party and dont have full control of your value.
..
so imagine you got your LN balance in a channel linked to cashapp.. and now you want to pay some other service routed via cashapp and then 5 hops further to get to the destination.. you end up paying 5x the normal LN fee average. because you have to pay each party along the route..
..
imagine you wire transfer $10 into cashapp, and want it as LN balance and not a confirmed bitcoin transaction thats on your own key..
imagine and exchange/cashapp sets up a channel that has $10(it SHOULD be 0.00025 at current prices) inbound value set towards the customer..
the utopian dream is that the customer gets the full 0.00025btc..
but here is the thing... to set up the lock, the exchange has to pay a onchain fee to create the funding lock to the multisig. and well he isnt going to pay for it. so expect customer balance to be lower to cover the cost.
making 0.00025 become 0.000225

next the service is not going to let the customer close a channel in the future  where the customer doesnt pay onchain fee. so the exchange signs a contract that freezes out 2500sat to pay for the onchain fee for closing the channel in the future
meaning the customer doesnt get the utopia of 0.00025, but instead only gets to play with 0.0002($8)

but we all know that an exchange wont just set close session fee of just standard 2500sat, so expect even less that 0.0002
and that 0.0002 soon becomes even less if you make payments through routes of many hops or have others route through you using up your balance.
..
and lastly,.
people pretend that fee's are 100x less.. but here is the thing.
if bitcoin network charge sat 2500sat.(~10sat per byte) meaning 5000sat to open and close
LN users might charge 100sat.. PER HOP
(note. most popular LN nodes show they do on average about 50 'events' per session. so to cover their onchain fee of 5000sat(2.5k to open and 2.5k to close) they will want LN payments to be 50th of that to break even)

(the utopian promise of fluffy clouds is that 100sat is cheaper then 2500sat)

to my next point
remember for each hop along a route you need to pay each hop. meaning that the fee's add up the more hops that are involved. and when liquidity is low and there is pressure for routes to reduce how popular their balance gets used up by others, they raise the fee as a way to sway people away from transacting as much via that route.

so imagine you only want to spend $0.80 of your $8 left
which is 0.00002000
but for each hop is charging 100sat(as just explained)
and the destination is 5 hops away. you are paying 500sat for your 2000sat payment.
meaning your paying 20c to move 80c (25%)
..
so do the math, run the scenarios. open a spreadsheet and fill in some cells with data and let the math play out. and soon you will see that the 'promise' of low fee's doesnt end up being a promise at all when such activities of utopian dream are actually played out in reality

yep LN doesnt have the channels this topic creator pretends it does.
yep the inside LN payment fee's for using LN are not what he thinks it is.
and yep the freedom of making payments are not what he thinks it is.

[zaesvlas]

And who generally withdraws bitcoins? I was thinking about withdrawing it to my card, but so far there are problems with this ...