Provably fair RTP ?

[ryzaadit]

-snip-

Ah yes SportBook, is a good option.

However, even LiveGames still can be manipulated for the RTP. Example playing "Blakcjack", If you remove 1-3 card is already change the RTP. But, we all don't know about the fairness of the deck even the game is live.

So, is really hard to be tracked.

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[Wexnident]

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

Probably because as you said, if they were to give out a way to check the RTP, if it were to ever change the cause of some variance and shows unmatched results, it may just be argued that the casino is lying. Not to mention that for the average user, it's rather complicated that they wouldn't even bother trying it out in the first place. And considering how casinos are in the first place, businesses and they would, ofc, prioritize profits first, putting out that small feature (even if it's rather simple), they wouldn't really bother with it.

[Kakmakr]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos.  

It seems, that you and some people here don't really know how the things work in case of both, online and real life casinos. Online casino is not a business where you buy the script from a shady guy and run installed script on cheap Hetzner servers.

Licensed online casinos are constantly and strictly audited to ensure that the whole gambling process is fair and safe for gamblers. I don't know if it's general or not but I can certainly say that in some countries there are laws where casinos can't lower the RPT under a certain limit, in Europe casinos are very well regulated. Every single process is tested and the results are submitted to the gaming commission, they can retest anything anytime and it should prove the previous fairness.

It is clear that you are just posting sh1t on here to boost your signature income and you do not know what you are talking about. Most of the online gambling sites are operating under the Curacao Gambling License and they are not doing "audits" to check if the RTP being used is fair.

The Curacao eGaming provides technical and financial support for the online gambling industry. Examples : providing ...dedicated services, private cloud servers, international finance...

Curacao doesn’t intervene in disputes between players and operators. From the player’s point of view, a license from Curacao is meaningless.

Source : https://www.gamblingsites.org/laws/curacao/

[Poker Player]

It is clear that you are just posting sh1t on here to boost your signature income and you do not know what you are talking about. Most of the online gambling sites are operating under the Curacao Gambling License and they are not doing "audits" to check if the RTP being used is fair.

The Curacao eGaming provides technical and financial support for the online gambling industry. Examples : providing ...dedicated services, private cloud servers, international finance...

Curacao doesn’t intervene in disputes between players and operators. From the player’s point of view, a license from Curacao is meaningless.

Source : https://www.gamblingsites.org/laws/curacao/

I agree. He is writing crap. And not only what you are saying. Some of the casinos that advertise on this forum don't even have a license, so it's even worse. I don't know what he is doing talking about licenses in Europe. He must think crypto casinos are like the fiat regulated houses he sees on TV commercials.

[Dunamisx]

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

Though I don't see anything as beyond the crackable capacity of hackers except if they don't bid for it, they can as well achieve this but i think its better to play safe and work by the casinos that make theirs available on the site rather than embarking on what may seems suspicious on the player's account which could lead to another thing entirely, so i go by the ones i can see to verify and any casinos i doubt or couldn't find their RTP then i move forward with my search, i think this should be a choice and not until one finds what he wants then struggles must to continue.

[michellee]

We just need to trust the gambling site because maybe we will find it difficult to check. If it is a trusted gambling site, we should trust them because it will not cheat on its users. So I guess if their site has Provably Fair writing, then we just have to enjoy the game without thinking that they will cheat. But you can just check to see the actual state of Provably Fair on that site.

[delfastTions]

If I start a Poll now to see how many people trust the displayed RTP for the Slots by casinos and Slot providers, I can bet you the majority will choose the option that says ... "I do not trust the RTP displayed."

I think the RTP is adjusted in real-time to adapt to the needs of the casino..... and nobody ever challenge it .. they just trust the casinos.    The regulated Brick n Mortar casinos are being audited to see if they are using the correct parameters for their games, but the online casinos have no check&balances for this.

Of course, almost everyone will answer that they do not trust the RTP data. And from little-known casinos and from large and reputable casinos. And it is impossible to find out this data, unless one of the casino employees reveals such secret, insider information. However, in the best case, he will be immediately caught by the security service and fired. And who needs it?
On the other hand, we do not know the casino's own operating costs. And these costs seriously affect the RTP.
So all that remains is to look at the presented RTP data of a particular casino, subtract 20% and smile.

[m2017]

We just need to trust the gambling site because maybe we will find it difficult to check. If it is a trusted gambling site, we should trust them because it will not cheat on its users. So I guess if their site has Provably Fair writing, then we just have to enjoy the game without thinking that they will cheat. But you can just check to see the actual state of Provably Fair on that site.

We have no other choice but to trust a gambling website with a declared RTP. As for trusted websites, here I agree with your opinion that they have no reason to deceive their users, because trust is their most valuable asset. And here you are again right that you should lower your level of distrust of trusted gambling websites and just enjoy the service provided by them. In any case, we can't compare the claimed RTP with the real ones, so the only thing left to do is focus on the gambling.

[mu_enrico]

Yea, we can't check/verify the RTP in slots, even with provably fair slots. RTP value is obtained by running millions/billions of simulation. I remember Stake revised its provably fair slots' HE a long time ago. Provably fair only means the future spin cannot be tampered, thus the result is fair. It's not about the validity of the programmed (theoretical) RTP.

So what's the solution? Well, sadly nothing we can do as a user except to trust the 3rd party provider. So the best practice is only to play games released by reputable, top brands. And make sure you connect to official server, play the real games since I heard there are pirated copies of the game.

[paxmao]

-snip-

Ah yes SportBook, is a good option.

However, even LiveGames still can be manipulated for the RTP. Example playing "Blakcjack", If you remove 1-3 card is already change the RTP. But, we all don't know about the fairness of the deck even the game is live.

So, is really hard to be tracked.

Not that much if you have open code that can be verified at any time. One example of this are ethereum contracts, which I believe can also be implemented over a bitcoin network indirectly. You can verify at any time that the contract is there, you are calling it and, if you want to get into the code you can validate the RTP and the fairness. That is what I call provably fair at least.

[Kakmakr]

This is a feature that "users" must demand.... not something that the industry will provide. The RTP are used to manipulate the income for the Slot providers and the casinos and the RTP value at any given moment are not transparent to the clients. They will show you a RTP that are provided by the Slot provider, but that RTP is variable and they have more than 1 RTP value to play with.

The in-house games have a mystery RTP.... because they will tell you that it is say 2% house edge.. but when you play that game, you will soon see that the RTP being shown are nowhere close to the RTP being used. (The casinos might have a bonus promotion ...and a few days before that, they will change that RTP to fund the rewards for that promotion) <== Speculation

It will be good for transparency, if the gambler/client can verify at all times..what the active RTP for the games are.. at any given time. This will build trust and it will reduce the moaning and groaning and complaints that we see plastered on social media and in-game chats.

[mak013]

I think that the problem will be(even it is possible of course) that the testing software would be written by people. And we again don`t know is it true test or this dev programmed the result that some casino need. Just someone who is skilled in the programming can test it, but the test is true for him. And the others have to decide can they believe him or not.

[Kakmakr]

I think that the problem will be(even it is possible of course) that the testing software would be written by people. And we again don`t know is it true test or this dev programmed the result that some casino need. Just someone who is skilled in the programming can test it, but the test is true for him. And the others have to decide can they believe him or not.

There are lots of people that has the skill to analyze the code to see if the code are legit or not.... the thing is, the piece of code that are used for this, must be Open Source and it must also make sure that the entry or entries within the Proprietary code that it queries... must be verified. (It should not link to a false entry within the software)

So there should be some standard OpenSource add-on that can be installed as a plugin option to "Verify" and "Report" the RTP that are configured for that software.

The casino can then receive a "Blue Flag" status.. to say that all their games are running the software and RTP's can be verified. Not just a label that says "Provably Fair".... but a actual link to the review / audit site that manage this.  

[famososMuertos]

The point here is whether the one who needs to know the live RTP is a few spins or a much spins player.
So, who benefits from the RTP someone who makes a lot of spins or the recreational player who sits makes a few spins and boom 1000x.

This one goes away and comes back in a few months or days, but the other one is continually spinning, so yesterday it saw a 96% RTP and today it sees a 98% RTP on the same game, the RTP puts it in a long-term losing range known, then what you need is to know the boom to stay away from losses.

The point is (classic example, yes, but sorry I need it for my context) let's say you have $100 you do 100 spins with an RTP of 95% the house takes $5 and in theory you should take $95, but curious you can take $200 or zero dollars ($0), basically because slots are fun, losing $5 (example) to win a big prize is what makes slots so successful.

Now I understand the point of manipulation, it sucks, but even a machine that claims to have 96% RTP, at a given moment can have an RTP of 94% and can have another say 98% and it is not being manipulated.

Anyway, slots is fun one day you are happy winning another day just spins... a live RTP can have a patience effect, like putting time on traffic lights, it has been shown that a traffic light with a timer de-stresses drivers , a live RTP can be counterproductive.  
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The review of third parties not linked to the casinos should provide confidence that the mentioned RTPs work, so it should be verified if they at least have certificates issued by the E-Cogra, which means "E-Commerce Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance" and/or "Gaming Associates" that are responsible for audits.

https://gamingassociates.com
https://ecogra.org

[magneto]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos.  

I don't think that you can do that deterministically.

You can only test the hypothesis that RTP is actually x % and seeing what percentage chance it is for the current string of events to have occurred.

Short term variance can completely skew results anyway and we'd have to essentially trust the software suppliers as well as government regulators to do the right thing, which is why I'm not particularly sold on these non-provably fair slots.

[TimeTeller]

I think that the problem will be(even it is possible of course) that the testing software would be written by people. And we again don`t know is it true test or this dev programmed the result that some casino need. Just someone who is skilled in the programming can test it, but the test is true for him. And the others have to decide can they believe him or not.

There are lots of people that has the skill to analyze the code to see if the code are legit or not.... the thing is, the piece of code that are used for this, must be Open Source and it must also make sure that the entry or entries within the Proprietary code that it queries... must be verified. (It should not link to a false entry within the software)

So there should be some standard OpenSource add-on that can be installed as a plugin option to "Verify" and "Report" the RTP that are configured for that software.

The casino can then receive a "Blue Flag" status.. to say that all their games are running the software and RTP's can be verified. Not just a label that says "Provably Fair".... but a actual link to the review / audit site that manage this. 

It seems no one is really asking seriously from the casinos about this aspect.
Hence, for them there is no need to put those audit links.
But if maybe one user will sincerely ask this to a known casino,
they may possibly assist the user but expect that it will take time as this is not their everyday request from their players.

[wildan88]

What was the RTP of the provably fair casino games? I am not sure if I understand it correctly but does the RTP only works in slots games or casino games from third party games provider? There is no way we can check if the RTP is really true based from what they advertise.

[ethereumhunter]

I'm not sure we can detect the accuracy of the RTP because we might find a number that is different from what the casino advertises. Maybe it could be bigger or even smaller than advertised. But will that make us leave that casino and look for another one that can match our calculations? I think it will just be a waste of time and make us unable to play and instead busy looking for and checking the RTP. I don't know how to check the RTP and just leave it to the casino because I just want to play a lot of games.

[yayayo]

I'm not sure we can detect the accuracy of the RTP because we might find a number that is different from what the casino advertises. Maybe it could be bigger or even smaller than advertised. But will that make us leave that casino and look for another one that can match our calculations? I think it will just be a waste of time and make us unable to play and instead busy looking for and checking the RTP. I don't know how to check the RTP and just leave it to the casino because I just want to play a lot of games.

Some people was really into the RTP since they might be a big time gambler but for someone like us who doesn't gamble too much and find it as an entertainment it doesn't bother us that much about whether the RTP is accurate or not and I think even if it is not accurate most people still would play in those slots that was given by the reputable game providers.

ya.ya.yo!

[Maus0728]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

Hence there is a reason why SOME platforms tend to be redflagged especially when their SYSTEM is either not open-source or their players' testimonies often were MORE of a losing experience than a winning one. Platforms (whom always were successful), tends to disclose their game's back end since it can help them receive contributions from the community whilst some also shows their RTPs whereas players with experiences knows the difference between a 96%RTP over a 95%RTP.