Provably fair RTP ?

[Kakmakr]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

[VanityWallets2015]

Some casinos put that on their game but just like what you have said we don't have information how we can confirm that it is the actual RTP of the game, that's why I choose to play only provably fair games in some casinos where I can verify it manually rather than playing with the slots games from other providers.

[m2017]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

You pay attention to a curious moment in an online casino. Displaying RTP in online games would be welcomed by most players, but I have a question. What prevents casino owners from displaying incorrect numbers? We can't test that, can we? To reassure the players, inflated numbers will be displayed, but in fact they will be lower. Theoretically, it will be possible to check this by making calculations after their games, but even if in this case it is possible to catch the fraud, the casino owners can easily justify themselves.

[zidanw]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

[Eternad]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

[swogerino]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

I would also love to see this,most game providers say just "high volatility or medium volatility" slot and based on this the RTP sure is a fixed one for example at 96.75% but that happens only during a certain period of time and we cannot check in real time the RTP,I am one of the slot players and I have seen for the same slot which is a high volatility one give me the bonus round often on the reels when playing with little money and almost never giving it when I play with bigger amounts of money,I guess real time RTP has something to do with it so I would really love to see this implemented if possible.

[yayayo]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

[AicecreaME]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

You have a valid point. Having the urge to know whether the casinos is being fair by giving the players the right RTP shown in their website is normal for a player to feel, most especially because players spend money on those bets. And with that, they also deserve to get honesty from the service provider. However, making this possible would let the operators on the losing side because they would have to show the code for the players to assess whether the RTP given is true.

If that would be the case, the code will spread out and could be manipulated or even have a bypass which will make their business at risk. And no owner wants that. Hence, what we could do is really just to rely on the players feedbacks and trust the casinos we decided to play on. After all, these reputable casinos won't risk their name to be on the mud for having such issue. Because the consequences would greatly impact the players population - the ones going in and exiting out.

[joeperry]

I think that is right, it would be risk for them to show the code and could lose millions so I think they will not going to show it to the users besides, they still have a lot of players that's still playing in their website even some gambling sites doesn't show information about the RTP.

[Kakmakr]

I think that is right, it would be risk for them to show the code and could lose millions so I think they will not going to show it to the users besides, they still have a lot of players that's still playing in their website even some gambling sites doesn't show information about the RTP.

They do not have to show the proprietary code for the whole program, just an additional feature that are OpenSource that will query the RTP setting and then display it to the user.    (This can then do a provably fair check to see if the displayed value are legit or if it was manipulated)

If I start a Poll now to see how many people trust the displayed RTP for the Slots by casinos and Slot providers, I can bet you the majority will choose the option that says ... "I do not trust the RTP displayed."

I think the RTP is adjusted in real-time to adapt to the needs of the casino..... and nobody ever challenge it .. they just trust the casinos.    The regulated Brick n Mortar casinos are being audited to see if they are using the correct parameters for their games, but the online casinos have no check&balances for this.

[fiulpro]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fire to them and lose players.

Most of the time the players do not even bother checking the RTP for every game at the end of the day they bounce from one casino to the other and they also do trust the casino name straightforwardly.

Also checking the RTP after every game is not practical or even convenient. RTP is also a very variable thing which every casino has a minimum requirement but due to competition, it surges up in some casinos. We can't judge them before as analyse all the data ourselves also what if the data is stored incorrectly as well? Some sites don't have anything to do with it but if they have good RTP settings and the players are able to analyze it freely they would themselves get more players! It's all about pay back and profit.

[Eternad]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

This is where trust play important role on playing and choosing slot provider. You have the option to choose what slot provider to use that we trust before we play so it’s up to the player discretion on how they will trust the slots RTP since there’s no way to verify it besides slots exist for so many years without any clear RTP issue.

[seoincorporation]

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. 

Calculating the RTP in real-time is something complex because there are a lot of bets on each game each second, and the result of that bet manipulates the RTP, since we don't have access to that data we can't calculate the RTP by ourselves or in a Provably fair way.

The best option is to use a service provided by the casinos to see the live RTP of each slot:

https://slots.io/live-rtp
https://bitcasino.io/es/live-rtp
https://sportsbet.io/casino/live-rtp

[ipanks]

I never thought about Provably Fair deeply because I realized that gambling is a business created to provide big profits for its owners. We may be able to validate that Provably Fair but of course, it will take some time before we know that the casino is Fair. If so, it will return to our original purpose in playing gambling. If we play gambling just to look for fun, we don't have to think about Provably Fair and just play. Even though the casinos are proven to be fraudulent, we still have other casinos that we can use to gamble. Think for a moment what is your reason for playing gambling.

[kaya11]

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

Is there other way to verify it without showing the codes? Like 3rd party or government agency to prove that they deliver right RTP? I hope there could be one so that no worries in behalf of the players. Maybe that way they won't lose much and even get more regulars on their site.

[ryzaadit]

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

[Synchronice]

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos.  

It seems, that you and some people here don't really know how the things work in case of both, online and real life casinos. Online casino is not a business where you buy the script from a shady guy and run installed script on cheap Hetzner servers.

Licensed online casinos are constantly and strictly audited to ensure that the whole gambling process is fair and safe for gamblers. I don't know if it's general or not but I can certainly say that in some countries there are laws where casinos can't lower the RPT under a certain limit, in Europe casinos are very well regulated. Every single process is tested and the results are submitted to the gaming commission, they can retest anything anytime and it should prove the previous fairness.

[DoublerHunter]

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

^ That is right, there is nothing we can do is to trust the casino provider about real-time and actual RTP and trust the system that they provided which is claiming that they have a fair system. At the end, still on the casino behavior of not scamming people the ends and probably that is how their reputation will keep. If we have doubt, sports bet and live betting were totally right for you because you can witness it in a real time.

[TimeTeller]

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

^ That is right, there is nothing we can do is to trust the casino provider about real-time and actual RTP and trust the system that they provided which is claiming that they have a fair system. At the end, still on the casino behavior of not scamming people the ends and probably that is how their reputation will keep. If we have doubt, sports bet and live betting were totally right for you because you can witness it in a real time.

That is correct, we are only relying on casino's reputation when it comes to RTP.
Because we can't verify this factor and if you are too worried about this.
As DoublerHunter said, just go for sports betting. At least you know, the bookie won't screw you because the results is out of their hands.

[khaled0111]

Please someone more experienced with cryptography and maths correct me if am wrong but I think if a slot game uses a provably fair algorithm and the game provider publish this algorithm then anyone can not only verify each bet result but also calculate the rtp of that game.
According to my experience, verifying pf slot games results is usually more complicated than for other games such as dice, crash or roulette.

I would also love to see this,most game providers say just "high volatility or medium volatility" slot and based on this the RTP sure is a fixed one for example at 96.75% but that happens only during a certain period of time and we cannot check in real time the RTP

AFAIK, there is a difference between the game volatility and its rtp. Two games may have the same rtp but one with high volatility and the other with low or medium volatility.