Seed Phrases and Private Keys

[caveminer]

I want to store my bitcoin offline, and I want to engrave my 256 bit number (master private key) on metal, and not ever have to use 24 words. I know this is riskier (if I record one of the numbers wrong I couldn't recover my bitcoin), but I'm not worried about that and I want to go ahead with my plan.  How do I do this? I tried electrum but it looks like the only way I can use electrum is with seed words, which I refuse to use.  Any help or pointing in the right direction would be greatly appreciated,  I've been trying to figure this out for a long time.  

[witcher_sense]

I tried electrum but it looks like the only way I can use electrum is with seed words, which I refuse to use.

Create new wallet => Standard Wallet => Use a master key=> paste your xprv or zprv

[caveminer]

Thank you, what do I type in the dialog box to create my master private key? 

[TheBeardedBaby]

In Electrum you can export the master key easy, but you have to disable the password first (for security reasons).

Go to wallet > Password, then type your "old" password and leave "new password" fields empty.

Then go to the View menu, open the console, in the console you write this one >

Code:

wallet.keystore.xprv

then your master key will show.

Now you can go back and set a password again.

Let me know if you need any Screenshots to help you

[caveminer]

Apologies for my ignorance, but I don't have a master key or anything to import or export, I'm stuck on the "create keystore from a master key page" and it says please enter your master public key, (xpub/ypub/zpub), and  I don't have any of these. 

[TheBeardedBaby]

Let's see what you are really after. I'll try to put it simple.

Private key is a key that gives you access to a single address, I guess that's what you are after.

Master key is created of generating a linked sequence of keys using the the hash of the previous private key. So if you want to recover the whole sequence of keys, you need only the fist one - the Master key.

[caveminer]

I want to create bitcoin storage that I can keep offline and remember my private master key without having to have 24 seed words.  

[witcher_sense]

I want to create bitcoin storage that I can keep offline and remember my private master key without having to have 24 seed words.  

A master private key is a derivative of seed words, which means you need to create a wallet with these words first in order to obtain your desirable master private key. Once you have gotten your master key, you can delete seed words if you don't like them. A master private key is sufficient to recreate your wallet, so technically you don't need any words.

Create new wallet => Standard Wallet => Create a new seed => get your master key

[lablab03]

I want to store my bitcoin offline, and I want to engrave my 256 bit number (master private key) on metal, and not ever have to use 24 words. I know this is riskier (if I record one of the numbers wrong I couldn't recover my bitcoin), but I'm not worried about that and I want to go ahead with my plan.  How do I do this? I tried electrum but it looks like the only way I can use electrum is with seed words, which I refuse to use.  Any help or pointing in the right direction would be greatly appreciated,  I've been trying to figure this out for a long time.  

actually as long as you're using a safe wallet to store your crypto there's no problem with it, the most important is the keys so always make sure that you have all the correct letters on your phrases. Read it many times if you want to print it or engrave on metal and of course try it first if its correct to assure everything will gonna be alright.

[Pmalek]

Pay attention to how you create your wallet and the seed in Electrum. Because you have to generate a 12-word seed first, and after that you can export your master private key as witcher_sense explained. If you are doing that on a computer connected to the Internet and a device that has been online before the wallet creation and will go online again afterwards, you can't consider that as a wallet created in an offline environment. Your PC should be permanently airgapped during the wallet creation process (preferably using an open-source OS) and stay that way after it's done. 

[m2017]

I want to store my bitcoin offline, and I want to engrave my 256 bit number (master private key) on metal, and not ever have to use 24 words.

If you want to engrave text on metal, I can advise you on this topic - Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers to get acquainted with one of the options for saving text on metal. I understand that you are planning to store master key, in principle you can also do this using washers.

I know this is riskier (if I record one of the numbers wrong I couldn't recover my bitcoin),

Therefore, I can recommend that you make 2-3 copies in order to avoid mistakes and loss of access to your key.

but I'm not worried about that and I want to go ahead with my plan.

This is commendable and I am sure, with a similar attitude and thanks to the advice of bitcointalk forum participants, you will succeed.

[o_e_l_e_o]

is with seed words, which I refuse to use.

Why? Do you believe that seed phrases have some weakness in them? I'm struggling to think of a good reason to use a seed phrase to generate a master private key, and then discard the seed phrase and back up the master private key instead.

In Electrum you can export the master key easy, but you have to disable the password first (for security reasons).

A better way is to go to the console and enter getmasterprivate(). It will prompt you for your password, and then after you enter it, display your master private key.

[Cookdata]

_snip_

Using a single private key is not really safe and not good health for your privacy. How about you do it this way.

Instead of creating a seed phrase as suggested above, why don't you create a single seed ( 64 bytes) using the PBKDF2 function (Password Based Key Derivation Function 2). The advantage is that you wouldn't worry about discarding other generated private keys and addresses, You have an additional option to include a passphrase for the safety of your coins against theft of seed.
The difference between a single seed and your private keys is the byte difference, you don't have to worry about handling 12 or 24 seed words/phrase, you don't have to worry about master keys

[un_rank]

but I'm not worried about that and I want to go ahead with my plan.

This is commendable and I am sure, with a similar attitude and thanks to the advice of bitcointalk forum participants, you will succeed.

All the resources I follow suggest the seed phrase or mnemonics be used to create the back up for your address rather than the private keys, so would it be commendable to use the private keys instead or is it a way to protest against the status quo?

If you insist on using your private keys and intend to store actual funds there, I would suggest also keeping a back up of the seed phrase as a secondary means of recovering your address. I cannot see the downsides of that besides providing more security for your Bitcoins.

[TheBeardedBaby]

In Electrum you can export the master key easy, but you have to disable the password first (for security reasons).

A better way is to go to the console and enter getmasterprivate(). It will prompt you for your password, and then after you enter it, display your master private key.

If I'm not mistaken the password will remain in the console history and you can see it by scrolling up with the arrow key .
If you do it manually like I wrote, there will be no trace of the password. 

[caveminer]

Thank for the responses, and sorry for my stubbornness, I'm trying to learn more about bitcoin by doing lots of different methods to see what is possible.  So far it looks like the only way I can do this is to use seed words first and then discard them?  Can I bypass using them in the first place and go straight to the master private key?  That's what I really want to do.   I don't have to use electrum, I'm open to any method that lets me totally bypass seed words, since seed words really just generate the master key with an easier to remember string of words, but I plan on remembering the 256 numbers instead.  

As for the people who say it's not as secure, that's assuming human error, if I remember or record all 256 digits correctly, my understanding is that the security is just as good.  

If it's at all relevant my plan for storing bitcoin on it is either generate bitcoin directly from mining or buy it from someone for cash.   I am also willing to pay for someone knowledgeable with a large post history to walk me through the process on discord voice call, so I can learn more about the whole process.

[o_e_l_e_o]

All the resources I follow suggest the seed phrase or mnemonics be used to create the back up for your address rather than the private keys, so would it be commendable to use the private keys instead or is it a way to protest against the status quo?

Seed phrases are used to back up everything, including all your private keys, public keys, and addresses.

If I'm not mistaken the password will remain in the console history and you can see it by scrolling up with the arrow key .

If you use wallet.keystore.get_master_private_key('yourpassword'), then yes, 'yourpassword' is stored in the console history. But if you use getmasterprivate() as I suggested, then you get a pop up box to enter your password in and it therefore isn't stored.

So far it looks like the only way I can do this is to use seed words first and then discard them? Can I bypass using them in the first place and go straight to the master private key?

If you want a single private key for a single address, then no, you can just generate (almost) any random 256 bit number and use that as a private key. If you want a master private key to generate an entire wallet, then you need both the 256 bit private key and a 256 bit master chain code. You don't have to generate a seed phrase first by any means, but most wallets do, and since you are a newbie I really wouldn't recommend trying to code your own system to generate master private keys as you will almost certainly end up with either a critical flaw or a critical vulnerability. If you really want a master private key without a seed phrase, then use Bitcoin Core.

since seed words really just generate the master key with an easier to remember string of words, but I plan on remembering the 256 numbers instead.

I can stress enough just how ill-advised it would be to rely on your memory of a 256 bit number to back up your wallet. You will lose your coins doing this.

[caveminer]

So far it looks like the only way I can do this is to use seed words first and then discard them? Can I bypass using them in the first place and go straight to the master private key?

If you want a single private key for a single address, then no, you can just generate (almost) any random 256 bit number and use that as a private key. If you want a master private key to generate an entire wallet, then you need both the 256 bit private key and a 256 bit master chain code. You don't have to generate a seed phrase first by any means, but most wallets do, and since you are a newbie I really wouldn't recommend trying to code your own system to generate master private keys as you will almost certainly end up with either a critical flaw or a critical vulnerability. If you really want a master private key without a seed phrase, then use Bitcoin Core.

since seed words really just generate the master key with an easier to remember string of words, but I plan on remembering the 256 numbers instead.

I can stress enough just how ill-advised it would be to rely on your memory of a 256 bit number to back up your wallet. You will lose your coins doing this.
[/quote]

Thanks, I don't plan on storing very much on there but I want to make sure it's possible.  I will try to use bitcoin core as you suggested, hopefully it's not too difficult.   So far I haven't found a single wallet where you can bypass generating a seed phrase. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

I will try to use bitcoin core as you suggested, hopefully it's not too difficult.

Bitcoin Core doesn't use seed phrases at all. It will generate a hierarchical deterministic wallet directly from a master private key.

When you run Bitcoin Core for the first time, it will starting downloading the entire blockchain, which is ~400 GB. If you have the bandwidth and storage for this, then you can let it do so which will allow you to run your own node and use Bitcoin Core as a functioning wallet. If you don't want to do this, then you can simply use Bitcoin Core to create a wallet and dump the master private key, and then take that master private key over to a light wallet. You can't import it directly in to Electrum though since the derivation paths won't match.

Also make sure you verify all the software you are downloading (Core +/- Electrum) against the developers' PGP keys so you can be sure you are running the official version and not malware.

[caveminer]

I will try to use bitcoin core as you suggested, hopefully it's not too difficult.

Bitcoin Core doesn't use seed phrases at all. It will generate a hierarchical deterministic wallet directly from a master private key.

When you run Bitcoin Core for the first time, it will starting downloading the entire blockchain, which is ~400 GB. If you have the bandwidth and storage for this, then you can let it do so which will allow you to run your own node and use Bitcoin Core as a functioning wallet. If you don't want to do this, then you can simply use Bitcoin Core to create a wallet and dump the master private key, and then take that master private key over to a light wallet such as Electrum.

Also make sure you verify all the software you are downloading (Core +/- Electrum) against the developers' PGP keys so you can be sure you are running the official version and not malware.

I really appreciate it, I'm actually already 99.1% synced, just catching up fully right now to 100 on core.  Right now I'm just doing a test but in the future I'll follow all the precautions and make a new one.  Hopefully getting the master private key dumped from the wallet is simple enough.  I'll need to be connected to the internet then to get it right, is that a drawback?  Or would I have to connect to the internet at some point regardless with other methods as well?