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Author Topic: what happens when a pool with 51% of hashrate forks ? (warning: technical hype)  (Read 1235 times)
foodies123
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March 27, 2014, 05:44:56 PM
 #1

51% attack: What is often considered a very large flaw in the design of Bitcoin (and altcoins) is that hypothetically, if a single entity contributed the majority of the network’s mining hashrate, they would have full control of the network and would be able to manipulate the public ledger (blockchain) at will. - I fucked up and copied the wrong definition

Quote

An attacker that controls more than 50% of the network's computing power can, for the time that he is in control, exclude and modify the ordering of transactions.
This allows him to:
Reverse transactions that he sends while he's in control. This has the potential to double-spend transactions that previously had already been seen in the block chain.
Prevent some or all transactions from gaining any confirmations
Prevent some or all other miners from mining any valid blocks



~18 hours ago this happened to Myriad. Cryptopool.eu which held more than 50% of the scrypt hashing power on the network forked.

What happened to the blockchain and the network ?
Nothing.

Because there were 4 other independent algorythms supporting the 49% on scrypt and proving that they were on the correct fork thus the fork had absolutely no effect on the network. Other than a few pissed off miners who lost a few hours of mining Myriad brushed off a 51% fork as if it were nothing.

This is why the concept of Myriad is the most inovative concept in crypto for a long time even above drk,x11 and hvc or you can name any other algo, because they cannot protect the network in any way all they do is keep away asics (for now), because hiding from ASICS is not the only problem the mining community has and fortunately Myriad solves most, if not all, of the current problems crypto coins are facing today.

I am not here to boast the coin and tell you to buy it, by all means don't buy it but look into it try to understand the concept and you will see as many senior/full members of this forum have seen that its concept is brilliant and it's the next step in the future of cryptocurrencies.


Relevant links are in my signature I am here to help you/answer any questions you may have to the extent of my knowledge (I am not the coin's developer, the coin's developer has better things like developing to do , he does waste his time hyping his coin which is another big + )

nope
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March 27, 2014, 06:22:35 PM
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I was lacking in the deep technical understanding to figure out what myriads 51% resilience was.  Looks like the harsh realities of the crypto world has shown us.

So Myriad is more resilient to mining manipulation that bitcoin.

Guess that means my assumption that mining algos can be changed in a fork with little effect on the end users is true.

So Myriad can evolve on the fly whilst still in continuous use as long as the 4 other algos are going.  Now that is a truly powerful innovation.  There is no way bitcoin could do that.

Myriad a coin for everyone that can evolve without disturbing the network.  Whats that old saying evolve or die?  The Altcoin cull is going to be interesting watching these evolutionary paths in crypto dieoff.  Will be like watching the extinction of the dinosaurs.  Myriad is the little mammal that no one noticed and evolved into an entity that took over the world!

foodies123
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March 27, 2014, 06:30:41 PM
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I was lacking in the deep technical understanding to figure out what myriads 51% resilience was.  Looks like the harsh realities of the crypto world has shown us.

So Myriad is more resilient to mining manipulation that bitcoin.

Guess that means my assumption that mining algos can be changed in a fork with little effect on the end users is true.

So Myriad can evolve on the fly whilst still in continuous use as long as the 4 other algos are going.  Now that is a truly powerful innovation.  There is no way bitcoin could do that.

Myriad a coin for everyone that can evolve without disturbing the network.  Whats that old saying evolve or die?  The Altcoin cull is going to be interesting watching these evolutionary paths in crypto dieoff.  Will be like watching the extinction of the dinosaurs.  Myriad is the little mammal that no one noticed and evolved into an entity that took over the world!



while(TRUE){
     echo "+1";
}

I was actually hoping for this to happen too because I was so curios to see how Myriad would react to a fork but damn, didn't expect it to shrug it off this easily. And yeah you're right evolution is possible without perturbing the mining ecosystem. God damn inovation ... *sheds a tear :


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March 27, 2014, 06:46:13 PM
 #4

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.

VTC: Vi5NxyF6FPCCEQDrsDcA34P8pXe1Yck21y
PDR: PP3EQsV3oX9bBkjpsnESguMHz3tfMqHXhy PlanetDollar
foodies123
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March 27, 2014, 07:18:17 PM
 #5

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

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micryon
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March 27, 2014, 08:38:33 PM
 #6

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

Read the wiki...

VTC: Vi5NxyF6FPCCEQDrsDcA34P8pXe1Yck21y
PDR: PP3EQsV3oX9bBkjpsnESguMHz3tfMqHXhy PlanetDollar
foodies123
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March 27, 2014, 09:41:26 PM
 #7

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

Read the wiki...


I am seriously not getting your point would you care to elaborate ?

nope
micryon
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March 27, 2014, 09:52:34 PM
 #8

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

Read the wiki...


I am seriously not getting your point would you care to elaborate ?

Okay.. to spell it out for you.

51% attacks are a real issues; as stated in the wiki.. and now with KGW, timewarp attacks on difficulty is possible to stall the network.

But the situation you listed where just because a pool has 51% could cause a fork that is problematic: does not exist.  That's an imaginary problem.  Forks are natural occurrences that is not protected or not protected by Myriad's multi algo hashing.  It's protected by the fork resolution protocols.

You simply do not get "full control" of the network with 51% and can do with it at will.  That's simply not true...  Yes you can stall it, double spend and do other malicious activities.. should you intend to, but the attack vectors are limited and does not constitute "full control" as you might think.

And, having one person or pool operating at 51% or even 100% hash rates, isn't necessarily a problem unless that person is a malicious attacker, intending to do something bad. Otherwise, it's just business as usual for all crypto protocols.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE  @ time 12:45

VTC: Vi5NxyF6FPCCEQDrsDcA34P8pXe1Yck21y
PDR: PP3EQsV3oX9bBkjpsnESguMHz3tfMqHXhy PlanetDollar
MoneySpasm
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March 27, 2014, 10:27:22 PM
 #9

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

Read the wiki...


I am seriously not getting your point would you care to elaborate ?

Okay.. to spell it out for you.

51% attacks are a real issues; as stated in the wiki.. and now with KGW, timewarp attacks on difficulty is possible to stall the network.

But the situation you listed where just because a pool has 51% could cause a fork that is problematic: does not exist.  That's an imaginary problem.  Forks are natural occurrences that is not protected or not protected by Myriad's multi algo hashing.  It's protected by the fork resolution protocols.

You simply do not get "full control" of the network with 51% and can do with it at will.  That's simply not true...  Yes you can stall it, double spend and do other malicious activities.. should you intend to, but the attack vectors are limited and does not constitute "full control" as you might think.

And, having one person or pool operating at 51% or even 100% hash rates, isn't necessarily a problem unless that person is a malicious attacker, intending to do something bad. Otherwise, it's just business as usual for all crypto protocols.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE  @ time 12:45


Ok fair point there are ways of mitigating the risk of too much mining power and forks.  It is also unlikely that a bad actor would profit more from manipulation than gains from mining. 
 
Unfortunately it is not a matter of absolute control the point we are making is one of resilience and adaptability.

Myriad can change more frequently with minimal disruption and there is zero risk of an entity gathering the 51% power needed.  You can mitigate this risk other ways or just hope it is a non issue thats fine it isn't the end of crypto as we know it.

Its not even the main feature of myriad just a byproduct of its simple yet effective design.  Mining for everyone on an adaptable resilient distributed network yes please. 
foodies123
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March 27, 2014, 11:19:52 PM
 #10

I don't think you guys really understand what a 51% attack is...

Please refer to this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Attacks#Attacker_has_a_lot_of_computing_power

Almost all coins derived from bitcoin/litecoin would be equally fine in the situation you mentioned.


so you're saying 51% or nothing to worry about ? then why is everyone looking out for them ?

a 51% attack will disrupt the blockchain no matter in what way it is not good for the coin so ... what am I not getting ?

Read the wiki...


I am seriously not getting your point would you care to elaborate ?

Okay.. to spell it out for you.

51% attacks are a real issues; as stated in the wiki.. and now with KGW, timewarp attacks on difficulty is possible to stall the network.

But the situation you listed where just because a pool has 51% could cause a fork that is problematic: does not exist.  That's an imaginary problem.  Forks are natural occurrences that is not protected or not protected by Myriad's multi algo hashing.  It's protected by the fork resolution protocols.

You simply do not get "full control" of the network with 51% and can do with it at will.  That's simply not true...  Yes you can stall it, double spend and do other malicious activities.. should you intend to, but the attack vectors are limited and does not constitute "full control" as you might think.

And, having one person or pool operating at 51% or even 100% hash rates, isn't necessarily a problem unless that person is a malicious attacker, intending to do something bad. Otherwise, it's just business as usual for all crypto protocols.

Watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx9zgZCMqXE  @ time 12:45



oh sorry I just noticed that the quote I copied said full control over the network, wow I feel like an idiot. that's why I wasn't getting what you were saying because all I meant to say is forks are bad and myr's multi hashing algos provide much better protection than any single algo coin. the error was caused by me being to lazy to write the definition of a fork and googleing it and copying the first thing I found without reading in depth.

so ... yeah what I'm basically saying is that myriad provides better protection against 51% than any other coin in existence while providing a fair chance for all miners and true fair distribution.

nope
muddafudda
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March 28, 2014, 06:40:52 AM
 #11

51% attack: What is often considered a very large flaw in the design of Bitcoin (and altcoins) is that hypothetically, if a single entity contributed the majority of the network’s mining hashrate, they would have full control of the network and would be able to manipulate the public ledger (blockchain) at will. - I fucked up and copied the wrong definition

Quote

An attacker that controls more than 50% of the network's computing power can, for the time that he is in control, exclude and modify the ordering of transactions.
This allows him to:
Reverse transactions that he sends while he's in control. This has the potential to double-spend transactions that previously had already been seen in the block chain.
Prevent some or all transactions from gaining any confirmations
Prevent some or all other miners from mining any valid blocks



~18 hours ago this happened to Myriad. Cryptopool.eu which held more than 50% of the scrypt hashing power on the network forked.

What happened to the blockchain and the network ?
Nothing.

Because there were 4 other independent algorythms supporting the 49% on scrypt and proving that they were on the correct fork thus the fork had absolutely no effect on the network. Other than a few pissed off miners who lost a few hours of mining Myriad brushed off a 51% fork as if it were nothing.

This is why the concept of Myriad is the most inovative concept in crypto for a long time even above drk,x11 and hvc or you can name any other algo, because they cannot protect the network in any way all they do is keep away asics (for now), because hiding from ASICS is not the only problem the mining community has and fortunately Myriad solves most, if not all, of the current problems crypto coins are facing today.

I am not here to boast the coin and tell you to buy it, by all means don't buy it but look into it try to understand the concept and you will see as many senior/full members of this forum have seen that its concept is brilliant and it's the next step in the future of cryptocurrencies.


Relevant links are in my signature I am here to help you/answer any questions you may have to the extent of my knowledge (I am not the coin's developer, the coin's developer has better things like developing to do , he does waste his time hyping his coin which is another big + )

So wrong.

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