Electrum Transaction Issue: Unconfirmed Parent; Insufficient fee problem

[xett036]

I open the details for all 3 transactions, each has inputs and outputs

There's one output in transaction 3 (Unconfirmed) is the same as one input in transaction 1(Unconfirmed Parent)

There's one output in transaction 1 (Unconfirmed Parent) is the same as one input in transaction 2(Unconfirmed Parent)

What are the relationship of these 3 transactions ?

Transaction 3 -> Transaction 1 -> Transaction 2.

For transaction 1 to have a confirmation, transaction 3 has to confirm first. Afterwhich, for transaction 2 to confirm, transaction 1 has to have a confirmation first.

What kind of transaction are these for; for a payment, a transfer to someone, a transfer to yourself? You can choose to create yet another transaction(which is mentioned above) or to have a replace-by-fee on transaction 3 which will invalidate transaction 1 and 2. Afterwhich, you can choose to create a new transaction that is similar to transaction 3 and continue with transaction 1 and 2.

Replace-by-fee is cheaper than CPFP.

Yeah, this order sounds about correct

Transaction 3 is a transfer to someone
Transaction 1 and 2 are for payments to 2 different vendors

So right now, I will need to get transaction 3 confirmed first, then repost transaction 1 and 2, right ? If transaction 3 doesn't get a confirmation, transaction 1 and 2 would never go through

[1714678287]

1714678287

[1714678287]

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[xett036]

I made transaction 3 first, then 1 and 2 (not remember the order between 1 and 2)

As mentioned by ranochigo, you have made the transaction 1 before transaction 2.
If you want these transaction to be confirmed fast, you should bump the fee of transaction 2

Note that with bumping the fee of transaction 3, you invalidate transactions 1 and 2 and with bumping the fee of transaction 1, you invalidate transaction 2.

I'm now trying to increase the fees for transaction 3. The current fee for transaction 3 is 7 sat/b, but even I put in 27 sat/b, it still says:

the server returned an error when broadcasting the transaction. Consider trying to connect to a different server, or updating Electrum

insufficient fee, your transaction is trying to replace another one in the mempool but it does not meet the rules to do so. Try to increase the fee.

[hosseinimr93]

So right now, I will need to get transaction 3 confirmed first,

If you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.
If you are not in hurry, just wait.

As calculated, the total virtual size of your transactions is 427 vbyte.
Given that for a fast confirmation, transaction fee of around 14 sat/vbyte is required, you need to pay 5978 satoshi in total.
You have paid 3024 satoshi for transactions 1 and 3 and need to pay 2954 satoshi for transaction 2.
If you are in hurry, bump the fee rate of transaction 2 to 21 sat/vbyte.

You can pay a bit more (around 25 sat/vbyte) to make sure your transaction will be confirmed soon. The fee rate required for a fast confirmation changes over time.

I'm now trying to increase the fees for transaction 3. The current fee for transaction 3 is 7 sat/b, but even I put in 27 sat/b, it still says:

With doing so, you invalidate transactions 1 and 2.
If you want all three transactions to included in the blockchain and you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.

Note that in my previous post, I had assumed that the order is transaction 1 ---> transaction  2 ---> transaction 3 and that was why I said you should bump fee of transaction 3.
Since the order is transaction 3 ---> transaction 1 ---> transaction 2, you should bump fee of transaction 2.

Again, no need to do anything, if you are not in hurry.

[xett036]

I set the fees to 30 sat/b, and now it changed

At the same time, it shows that transaction 1 and 2 are invalidated

[hosseinimr93]

I set the fees to 30 sat/b, and now it changed
At the same time, it shows that transaction 1 and 2 are invalidated

The transaction made with fee rate of 30 sat/vbyte will be likely confirmed in the next block. (A new block is mined every 10 minutes on average)
Transactions 1 and 2 no longer exist.

[xett036]

So right now, I will need to get transaction 3 confirmed first,

If you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.
If you are not in hurry, just wait.

As calculated, the total virtual size of your transactions is 427 vbyte.
Given that for a fast confirmation, transaction fee of around 14 sat/vbyte is required, you need to pay 5978 satoshi in total.
You have paid 3024 satoshi for transactions 1 and 3 and need to pay 2954 satoshi for transaction 2.
If you are in hurry, bump the fee rate of transaction 2 to 21 sat/vbyte.

You can pay a bit more (around 25 sat/vbyte) to make sure your transaction will be confirmed soon. The fee rate required for a fast confirmation changes over time.

I'm now trying to increase the fees for transaction 3. The current fee for transaction 3 is 7 sat/b, but even I put in 27 sat/b, it still says:

With doing so, you invalidate transactions 1 and 2.
If you want all three transactions to included in the blockchain and you are in hurry, bump the fee of transaction 2.

Note that in my previous post, I had assumed that the order is transaction 1 ---> transaction  2 ---> transaction 3 and that was why I said you should bump fee of transaction 3.
Since the order is transaction 3 ---> transaction 1 ---> transaction 2, you should bump fee of transaction 2.

Again, no need to do anything, if you are not in hurry.

It's fine, I might just redo transaction 1 and 2 later

I think the problem here is the 3 transactions are somehow linked with each other, which creates a chain reaction. This was never my intention though when I sent them yesterday. I just wanted to send 3 transaction to 3 different address, they should be independent and not interfere with each other

Do you know why this would happen? so I can avoid this situation in future payments

Additionally, how do you calculate what fees to set, do you refer to a website ?

[LoyceMobile]

It's fine, I might just redo transaction 1 and 2 later

For the next time: if possible, using "Pay to many" in Electrum gives you lower total fees. You'll have one transaction with multiple outputs and only one change address.

I think the problem here is the 3 transactions are somehow linked with each other, which creates a chain reaction.

That's how a blockchain works: each transaction uses the output from the previous transaction.

Do you know why this would happen? so I can avoid this situation in future payments

If you have multiple inputs in your own wallet you can use Coin control to avoid this, but you don't need to. It's normal.

[hosseinimr93]

Additionally, how do you calculate what fees to set, do you refer to a website ?

I always use Johoe's Bitcoin Mempool Statistics.
To know the current required fee, hover your mouse cursor over right side of the chart.

Look at the screenshot I just took.




The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 1 sat/vbyte is 100 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 2 sat/vbyte is 52 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 3 sat/vbyte is 49 vMB.
...........
...........
...........
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 17 sat/vbyte is 0.91 vMB.

Note that miners prioritize transactions based on the their fee rate and every block has a capacity of 1 vMB.
So, if I set the transaction fee to more than 17 sat/vbyte, my transaction will likely be confirmed in the next block.
Note that it's possible that new transactions with higher fee rates are added to the mempool and my transaction isn't confirmed in the next block. So, I can pay a bit more (18-20 sat/vbyte) to increase the chance of getting confirmation in the next block.

There are other websites like mempool.space that can be used to estimate the required transaction fee rate.

[xett036]

It's fine, I might just redo transaction 1 and 2 later

For the next time: if possible, using "Pay to many" in Electrum gives you lower total fees. You'll have one transaction with multiple outputs and only one change address.

I think the problem here is the 3 transactions are somehow linked with each other, which creates a chain reaction.

That's how a blockchain works: each transaction uses the output from the previous transaction.

Do you know why this would happen? so I can avoid this situation in future payments

If you have multiple inputs in your own wallet you can use Coin control to avoid this, but you don't need to. It's normal.

Right

The 'Pay to many' option can keep multiple transactions at the same position, right ? So even one transaction doesn't get confirmed, it wouldn't affect other transactions' progress

Didn't find the 'Coin control' you mentioned, where is it in Electrum ?

[hosseinimr93]

So even one transaction doesn't get confirmed, it wouldn't affect other transactions' progress

When you use "pay to many", you pay bitcoin to all recipients in a single transaction and there is no other transaction at all.

Didn't find the 'Coin control' you mentioned, where is it in Electrum ?

Click on "View" at top of the window and select "Show Coins".

[xett036]

Additionally, how do you calculate what fees to set, do you refer to a website ?

I always use Johoe's Bitcoin Mempool Statistics.
To know the current required fee, hover your mouse cursor over right side of the chart.

Look at the screenshot I just took.

https://i.imgur.com/vZhXkcR.jpg


The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 1 sat/vbyte is 100 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 2 sat/vbyte is 52 vMB.
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 3 sat/vbyte is 49 vMB.
...........
...........
...........
The total virtual size of transactions paying at least 17 sat/vbyte is 0.91 vMB.

Note that miners prioritize transactions based on the their fee rate and every block has a capacity of 1 vMB.
So, if I set the transaction fee to more than 17 sat/vbyte, my transaction will likely be confirmed in the next block.
Note that it's possible that new transactions with higher fee rates are added to the mempool and my transaction isn't confirmed in the next block. So, I can pay a bit more (18-20 sat/vbyte) to increase the chance of getting confirmation in the next block.

There are other websites like mempool.space that can be used to estimate the required transaction fee rate.

I am making another transaction now. I use your method, refer to Johoe's Bitcoin Mempool, and see 14+ is 1.122 vMB, so I set my fee 14.2 sat/vB.

This should mean that my transaction will be in the 2nd block, right ? But I right click the transaction, and view on block explorer, it says in 144 blocks. I check back 10 minutes later, it has improved says still in 16 blocks though.

Additionally, I go to mempool.space, it gives 3 fees, Low priority, Medium priority and High priority. How do I read them ?

[xett036]

When you use "pay to many", you pay bitcoin to all recipients in a single transaction and there is no other transaction at all.

Right, so I just need to pay the fee once. And if it's confirmed, all the recipient would receive their bitcoins. This way can reduce cost as well

Click on "View" at top of the window and select "Show Coins".

Yeah, I see a couple of output points, and each has their address and amount. Do they mean that the total fund in my wallet are stored into these addresses ? And I can choose a particular address to make a specific payment

[hosseinimr93]

This should mean that my transaction will be in the 2nd block, right ?

Not necessarily. New transactions will be added to the mempool and they may delay the confirmation of your transaction.

Additionally, I go to mempool.space, it gives 3 fees, Low priority, Medium priority and High priority. How do I read them ?

They are just estimations calculated based on network state.

And I can choose a particular address to make a specific payment

To be more precise:
You can specify which UTXO (coin) you want to be used for your transaction.
Note that any address can contain numerous UTXOs (coins).

[xett036]

To be more precise:
You can specify which UTXO (coin) you want to be used for your transaction.
Note that any address can contain numerous UTXOs (coins)

Sure, how to use coin control to make a payment?

I right-clicked on one of the output points, and select Spend, saw that line turns green

[LoyceMobile]

After selecting, click Send tab.
Use ctrl to select more than 1.

[xett036]

After selecting, click Send tab.
Use ctrl to select more than 1.

Do you mean after I click 'Spend' on one output point, I just go to the send tab, and make a transaction as usual. Then the coin will only come out of that particular 'control coin balance'

[LoyceMobile]

Yes. It's also good practice to always preview your transaction before sending. You can enable that as default behavior somewhere in Electrum's settings.
When previewing, check them inputs, outputs and fee.

[xett036]

OK, thanks!