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Author Topic: Bitcoin in Honduras' new charter cities  (Read 5473 times)
Shuai
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December 08, 2011, 01:50:01 AM
 #1

I have just stumbled upon the information about Honduras being serious about free market economy by altering their constitutions. http://chartercities.org/blog/191/a-new-city-in-honduras

I see this as a golden opportunity to get bitcoin implemented in the real world in a local economy. If currencies were kept free to compete in the new political zone, bitcoin would start out on even an footing in free competition with all other currencies - the outcome of such a battle isn't hard to guess.

Who would be willing to move to honduras to operate bitcoin infrastructure there, or lobby for getting bitcoin legislated/recognized in the charter city?

I for one would immediately move to a free state anywhere in the world, if the opportunity arose.
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December 08, 2011, 02:20:36 AM
 #2

http://www.fastcoexist.com/1678720/former-seasteaders-come-ashore-to-start-libertarian-utopias-in-honduran-jungle#comments

This is a for profit implementation of the charter cities idea. Would be great to see it work.  No mention of currency though.

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December 08, 2011, 07:15:58 AM
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Eutopia ? 

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December 08, 2011, 12:31:05 PM
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Judging by the successful development of SARs in China, this is likely to work pretty well.
The population speaks spanish which is a fairly common language, has common values with western cultures (christianity..), labor cost must be cheap and people seems to be highly motivated to deal with foreigners (high level of emmigration, almost unanimous vote at the congress).
And the country is beautiful, which is also appreciable!

That sounds much more exciting than to move to New Hampshire to participate to the free state project, or live on a floating highland or an abandonned plateform in the middle of the ocean...
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December 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM
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Judging by the successful development of SARs in China, this is likely to work pretty well.
The population speaks spanish which is a fairly common language, has common values with western cultures (christianity..), labor cost must be cheap and people seems to be highly motivated to deal with foreigners (high level of emmigration, almost unanimous vote at the congress).
And the country is beautiful, which is also appreciable!

That sounds much more exciting than to move to New Hampshire to participate to the free state project, or live on a floating highland or an abandonned plateform in the middle of the ocean...

It's also the murder capital of the world (seriously).

That being said I do agree with you. I'd imagine outside of the major cities it's not so bad.

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December 09, 2011, 01:44:15 AM
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That sounds much more exciting than to move to New Hampshire to participate to the free state project, or live on a floating highland or an abandonned plateform in the middle of the ocean...

  Amen to that.

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
Shuai
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December 09, 2011, 01:10:05 PM
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These charter cities in Honduras will be nothing like Dubai, because they will have one or several foreign guarantor nations who will create the laws and guarantee they are enforced. These nations will be doing it as a part of their foreign aid, so their end goal will be to ensure the rights and welfare of the poor Honduran workers, not making huge profits.

Insane amounts of people are unemployed in Honduras, and in addition to starving every day, they are also immersed in an environment of deadly violence. They would love to have any kind of job, if it allowed them to survive, and meant they could keep their family in a safe place where they wouldnt be threatened with murder on a daily basis.

I think the number one issue these cities will have to overcome is to make absolutely sure that there is ZERO crime. I'm talking Beijing-style police state in the beginning to ensure the safety of the working families, and to show foreign investors that investing there isn't high risk.

My hope is that the security forces/police will be allowed to be private and public. The guarantor nations can provide police from their own forces, whose main task will be policing the other officers, and then private investors can sponsor their own security forces (so the city owns them, the company is just sponsoring them).

Finally, any sort of crime must have extremely harsh sentences in the beginning, especially drug related crimes, and companies must be forced to do drug tests, to make sure organized crime isn't able to get a significant foothold in the city (or i predict organized crime would eventually completely overtake, to the point of ownership, the entire city)

These police state measures would only be temporary of course, and should be written into the charter as having a maximum period (i.e. 10 years from when the first families are allowed to live in the city), and then hopefully the city will develop its own international culture over time, which is hopefully more peaceful than the current honduran culture. At that point it would make sense to loosen the tight grip over the city. Drugs, however, can never be legal in the city unless they also get legalized in the rest of the Americas, or the city would _instantly_ turn into a drug city.
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December 09, 2011, 01:34:20 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

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December 09, 2011, 02:39:22 PM
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So, they will impose Canadian law in this area of Honduras? How will that work??

http://chartercities.org/faq/179/mauritania-faqs

this is a hypothetical example
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December 09, 2011, 05:21:08 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

What aspect exactly don't you think is sustainable?
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December 09, 2011, 05:53:49 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

What aspect exactly don't you think is sustainable?

Maybe unsustainable isn't a strong enough word. It's hard to have a precise criticism of an idea that is is barely formulated with no real world details or data. I am not against experimentation, but this looks like a complete non-starter and probably a scam. If you can provide details on how a Libertarian city can work, please offer a synopsis. Don't suggest I read some completely fallacious and debunked book.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 09, 2011, 06:09:18 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

What aspect exactly don't you think is sustainable?

Maybe unsustainable isn't a strong enough word. It's hard to have a precise criticism of an idea that is is barely formulated with no real world details or data. I am not against experimentation, but this looks like a complete non-starter and probably a scam. If you can provide details on how a Libertarian city can work, please offer a synopsis. Don't suggest I read some completely fallacious and debunked book.

Show me a sustainable non Libertarian city.  One that has sustained for thousands of years because it's so great. Governments have been destroying cities, countries, and the people, property, and wealth in them for thousands of years.  Maybe it's time to try something different - might work, might not, but I don't think the idea is any less sustainable that what we have currently.  And it may be a great opportunity for Bitcoin.

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Shuai
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December 09, 2011, 06:13:43 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

What aspect exactly don't you think is sustainable?

Maybe unsustainable isn't a strong enough word. It's hard to have a precise criticism of an idea that is is barely formulated with no real world details or data. I am not against experimentation, but this looks like a complete non-starter and probably a scam. If you can provide details on how a Libertarian city can work, please offer a synopsis. Don't suggest I read some completely fallacious and debunked book.

Did you even read the link I posted in the OP??
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December 09, 2011, 06:24:07 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I actually think these experimental cities are inevitable. I still don't understand how Libertarians plan to make them sustainable. I suppose that if they are getting foreign aid, then they will not really be Libertarian. It's likely they will become opulent resorts for extremely wealthy heirs longing to satiate desires unattainable in civilized nations. If so, they will end badly.

What aspect exactly don't you think is sustainable?

Maybe unsustainable isn't a strong enough word. It's hard to have a precise criticism of an idea that is is barely formulated with no real world details or data. I am not against experimentation, but this looks like a complete non-starter and probably a scam. If you can provide details on how a Libertarian city can work, please offer a synopsis. Don't suggest I read some completely fallacious and debunked book.

Did you even read the link I posted in the OP??

You mean the blog? Yes I read that. Mostly I was riffing off the response later about the Libertarian Sea Cities moving ashore. There is experimentation like this in the Philippines, but it seems to have no benefit for the nation as a whole at all. So they want basically a free trade zone. That will be great for the human trafficking industry I suppose.

Show me a sustainable non Libertarian city.  One that has sustained for thousands of years because it's so great. Governments have been destroying cities, countries, and the people, property, and wealth in them for thousands of years.  Maybe it's time to try something different - might work, might not, but I don't think the idea is any less sustainable that what we have currently.  And it may be a great opportunity for Bitcoin.

By all means, build your city, but please don't ask me to invest. The world will have its eyes on you. If you violate human rights, you will be exposed. Maybe Dubai has not yet been sanctioned, but Honduras has a history of political resistance.

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December 10, 2011, 12:20:02 AM
 #15

I'm really glad the mods cut up this topic into all the digressions.

Please lets have this as the main topic, and not discuss the viability of charter cities, libertarian cities or dubai in this thread, but instead discuss bitcoin in honduras new charter cities

I'm interested in knowing what kind of companies/infrastructure would be required to basically give the same functionality as a full blown banking system in a city. I guess we need a pos company, an online/mobile wallet service, an exchange, perhaps atms for gold or other foreign currencies?
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December 10, 2011, 12:59:26 AM
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I'm really glad the mods cut up this topic into all the digressions.
You're quite welcome.
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Please lets have this as the main topic, and not discuss the viability of charter cities, libertarian cities or dubai in this thread, but instead discuss bitcoin in honduras new charter cities

I'm interested in knowing what kind of companies/infrastructure would be required to basically give the same functionality as a full blown banking system in a city. I guess we need a pos company, an online/mobile wallet service, an exchange, perhaps atms for gold or other foreign currencies?
I doubt any city that adopted bitcoin as an unmolested trade currency would need any of those things, but if so, someone will provide them.  The point of a charter city is a modern recreation of what made Hong Kong into a world class business city prior to it's loss of lease.  Mostly that the Brits didn't really care what the people did, so long as they paid their due and didn't give them trouble.  For much of that time, sectors of Hong Kong were effectively self-governing precients, with noticablely varying degrees of success.  I have, for some time now, planned on leaving the US upon my successful retirement (meaning with my pension intact) and have investigated many expat retirement communities in Mexico and Argentina; as well as the possibility of simply moving onto a sailboat and renting a slip at a cheap marina in New Hampshire due to the Free State Project. (I'm not willing to live in New Hampshire between November and April)  I can honestly say I've never considered Honduras before now. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 10, 2011, 01:30:41 AM
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I'm really glad the mods cut up this topic into all the digressions.
You're quite welcome.
Quote
Please lets have this as the main topic, and not discuss the viability of charter cities, libertarian cities or dubai in this thread, but instead discuss bitcoin in honduras new charter cities

I'm interested in knowing what kind of companies/infrastructure would be required to basically give the same functionality as a full blown banking system in a city. I guess we need a pos company, an online/mobile wallet service, an exchange, perhaps atms for gold or other foreign currencies?
I doubt any city that adopted bitcoin as an unmolested trade currency would need any of those things, but if so, someone will provide them.  The point of a charter city is a modern recreation of what made Hong Kong into a world class business city prior to it's loss of lease.  Mostly that the Brits didn't really care what the people did, so long as they paid their due and didn't give them trouble.  For much of that time, sectors of Hong Kong were effectively self-governing precients, with noticablely varying degrees of success.  I have, for some time now, planned on leaving the US upon my successful retirement (meaning with my pension intact) and have investigated many expat retirement communities in Mexico and Argentina; as well as the possibility of simply moving onto a sailboat and renting a slip at a cheap marina in New Hampshire due to the Free State Project. (I'm not willing to live in New Hampshire between November and April)  I can honestly say I've never considered Honduras before now. 

Of course it needs that systems (at least pos system) if you are to actually use bitcoin for every day trade. And yes, someone will provide them, but those someone are us, because we're pretty much the only bitcoin community, so its falls to us to make potential providers of a pos system aware of honduras if we want to see bitcoin spread there.

I imagine honduras charter cities could be a nice place to retire to. But again, this would require peace and crime at typical european or american levels, rather than the psycho culture of violence that currently exists in Honduras. Some will say that this cannot be done, but perhaps the profit motive of corporations combined with the humanitarian motive of western states can be driver behind this. Perhaps.

This got me thinking, another huge thing with Bitcoin is that, if used correctly, it protects you from street muggings/robberies if you suddenly no longer have a wallet with cash or credit cards (But then you still have a smart phone, of course).
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December 10, 2011, 02:05:33 AM
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I imagine honduras charter cities could be a nice place to retire to. But again, this would require peace and crime at typical european or american levels, rather than the psycho culture of violence that currently exists in Honduras. Some will say that this cannot be done, but perhaps the profit motive of corporations combined with the humanitarian motive of western states can be driver behind this. Perhaps.

There are many cultural reasons for the prevalance of crime in Honduras, but most of them will be muted or simply not apply to a charter city simply on the assumption that such a city will become very international and cosmopolitan rather quickly.  Major corporations that establish factories there would likely function like little city states of their own right, much like many do in China today.  The charter cities website isn't truly libertarian in thought, like the idea of a charter city is, because they talk about major utilities providing public services in the kind of private utility with a public monopoly setup like many US cities do.  In reality, most of the early & large corporations will provide their own utilities; from entire factory roofs that function as rainwater catchment systems for huge cisterns to trash collection.  I've seen this kind of thing happen personally.  Companies don't lack the ability to provide for their own services unless local regulations prohibit it.  For example, the company that I work for now contracted with the local trash collection company to pipe their methane to the factory, and burn it in huge direct vent heaters on the factory floor, circumventing the local power monopoly completely.  This city (Louisville) also sits on one of the largest replenishing aquifers in the US, and thus there are many buildings downtown that have state licenses to build, maintain and draw from huge water wells under the buildings.  Most of them use them for things other than potable water for the building, such as open cycle heat pumps, dumping the flow into the Ohio River; but there is nothing to prevent such a company from switching their entire building over to an internal water treatment system other than the fact that 'city' water is very cheap here.  It's cheap here because the 'city' water monopoly isn't a true monopoly, because I have the same right to a well in my backyard without a permit for under 100K gallons per month.  Private wells remain ununsual in the city, for many obvious reasons, but the very fact that it's practically and legally possible helps keep prices down.

Quote
This got me thinking, another huge thing with Bitcoin is that, if used correctly, it protects you from street muggings/robberies if you suddenly no longer have a wallet with cash or credit cards (But then you still have a smart phone, of course).

There's that, but unlike mugging someone for thier cash or their shoes; mugging someone for thier cell phone is harder to hawk because it's inherent tracking makes it a risk unto itself.  Think about how rare cell phone thefts are at present.  Laptops get stolen from public spaces all the time, but some 'candid camera' type experiments have shown that most people won't steal a cellphone left out in public, such as on a public bench in a crowded public park but will if it's an mp3 player or even a cell phone still in it's retail packaging.  The rational explanation is that those who are inclined to steal it are concious of the implications of gps in cell phones.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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September 05, 2012, 10:26:24 PM
 #19

Sorry for necro-thread, but there was an update to this :

Quote
An international group of investors and government representatives signed the memorandum Tuesday for the project that some say will bring badly needed economic growth to this small Central American country and that at least one detractor describes as “a catastrophe.”

 - http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/honduras-signs-deal-with-investors-to-create-3-private-cities-to-host-new-industries/2012/09/04/c8d43110-f6fb-11e1-a93b-7185e3f88849_story.html
 - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_HONDURAS_PRIVATE_CITIES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-04-21-45-18



This thread had spawned a related thread on Libertarians:

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54104.0

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September 06, 2012, 03:48:18 AM
 #20

Sorry for necro-thread, but there was an update to this :

Quote
An international group of investors and government representatives signed the memorandum Tuesday for the project that some say will bring badly needed economic growth to this small Central American country and that at least one detractor describes as “a catastrophe.”

 - http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/honduras-signs-deal-with-investors-to-create-3-private-cities-to-host-new-industries/2012/09/04/c8d43110-f6fb-11e1-a93b-7185e3f88849_story.html
 - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_HONDURAS_PRIVATE_CITIES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-04-21-45-18



This thread had spawned a related thread on Libertarians:

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54104.0

Thanks, keep updating. Very interesting:)

Time for me to finally learn another language, and check that one off my bucket list.

And no, I don't consider high school French 'learning'.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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