Bitcoin has no future as a payments network, says FTX chief

[sklopan]

Again, this is just an opinion. It seems to me that if you believe all the opinions, the result will not be very positive.

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[RealMalatesta]

Lightning is advancing so fast that it's hard to keep up with the latest.

Right now you can setup a card to make tap payments using only Bitcoin, no legacy financial institutions required.

Here's a post I made about this: https://stacker.news/items/29647

So basically there's already a payment network based on Bitcoin that can be used with the same convenience as credit cards today.

There's no future for these institutions that want to keep charging huge fees for moving money around.

LN is not a bad method to use but at the end if people are not moving there then I do not know what good it does. I get that it is definitely a great method and it is cheap and it is fast, I used it before as well so not like I never tried it and it was the best thing ever.

I literally paid a few satoshi as fee and then it went to the address just a few seconds later, so it is the ideal thing and there is nothing wrong with using it if we are talking about only the fee and the pace. However, it must be a bit limited if everyone is declining to use it, consider why would people not use that if it is such a great thing, it should be used by everyone if it was okay.

[24Kt]

LN is not a bad method to use but at the end if people are not moving there then I do not know what good it does. I get that it is definitely a great method and it is cheap and it is fast, I used it before as well so not like I never tried it and it was the best thing ever.

I literally paid a few satoshi as fee and then it went to the address just a few seconds later, so it is the ideal thing and there is nothing wrong with using it if we are talking about only the fee and the pace. However, it must be a bit limited if everyone is declining to use it, consider why would people not use that if it is such a great thing, it should be used by everyone if it was okay.

I believe the reason why people are not using it because only few sites or platforms are offering the LN payment method. Even exchanges are not offering LN services. If people will see the LN availability, I am sure they will utilize it because of the very cheap fees. But if they won't see platforms offering LN payment, I don't think they will patronize it.

[thecodebear]

Yeah I was confused why he was saying this. Seems like a very bizarre statement from an industry executive who should know better. Yeah the base chain won't be useful for payments, at least not everyday payments, buying a car or a house or something and paying a $5 or $10 or even $50 fee is fine, but even the current $1 to $2 transaction fees are too much for nomrla daily one-digit or two-digit dollar purchases. But LN solves this.

You aren't going to get a better money solution in crypto than Bitcoin. And LN makes Bitcoin very cheap to spend. So it seems completely nonsensical to imply that some other crypto network will be better than Bitcoin for payments, considering that no other blockchain even comes remotely close to Bitcoin in all the ways that are important.

[ncentrepreneur.investor]

Are we witnessing the emergence of the biggest bitcoin antagonist in the cryptospace? I think Sam Bankman-Fried is one of the most intelligent founders in the cryptospace, however, I am starting to be more skeptical about his agenda. In the article, he mentioned that bitcoin may have a future as an asset, a commodity or a store of value. I am scratching my head on what he might be implying in his statement. Is he telling us that bitcoin will not forever be no.1 in market capitalization?

Skeptical. I do not know if he is making an honest assessment on bitcoin or if this is the beginning of their new agenda to remove bitcoin from being no.1.



Bitcoin has no future as a payments network because of its inefficiency and high environmental costs, according to one of crypto’s most influential chief executives.

Sam Bankman-Fried, founder of the digital asset exchange FTX, said the proof of work system of validating blockchain transactions, which underpins bitcoin, was not capable of scaling up to cope with the millions of transactions that would be needed to make the cryptocurrency an effective means of payment.

“The bitcoin network is not a payments network and it is not a scaling network,” said Bankman-Fried.

But despite his views on bitcoin, Bankman-Fried said he still believed the world’s biggest digital asset had a place in the crypto market.

“I don’t think that means bitcoin has to go,” he said, adding that the token may still have a future as “an asset, a commodity and a store of value” akin to gold.

Read in full https://www.ft.com/content/02cad9b8-e2eb-43d4-8c18-2e9d34b443fe

I completely agree, if you are referring to the base layer BTC network. Regardless of the environmental cost or network speed, it will always be #1 because it has proven itself among many others, and I would be skeptical of ANYTHING now or in the future that claims to be better. It can be a means of payment later on if the sender and reciever is not in a hurry, but I understood thats why lightening was developed. Other than that, his (Sam) point is what? We knew this already, but why did he say it?

[bbc.reporter]

he still is one of the smartest founders in the cryptospace. He graduated in MIT, he created his own exchange from nothing and he is presently one of the biggest names.

Craig Scammer Wright is also a college graduate and has a PhD but that doesn't make him smart nor his statements right. Same with creating a website and a service that makes you more money!

what is his agenda behind his statements?

In my experience they always want to push a "better" solution that ends up filling their pockets.

He is one of the biggest donors in the Democratic National Convention and look at the picture, he is with Bill Clinton hehehe.

In other words a picture with an old dude who used to be somebody cost him a lot of money

You appear to be making an effort not to understand what is being implied. Similar to Craig Scammer Wright, who I reckon is only acting like he is a stupid person, has a deeper agenda behind the act. Be careful of this and the community should not be so arrogant to underestimate these dumb people. Sam Bankman-Fried is filling his pockets, yes and he will fill them more to use and expand his power and influence not only in the cryptospace, being one of the largest donors in the Democratic National Convention.

Also, he who controls the markets, controls the world and the biggest powers behind the cryptospace are the largest centralized exchanges. This is why it is very important for the community to accept Defi as a development that can bring power back to the developers and the users.

[thecodebear]

You've picked the wrong guy. I don't think that LN is Bitcoin 2.0; LN is LN.
...
it seems to do well enough the L2 job for Bitcoin and it helps. Imho this is what matters at the end of the day.

gotta laugh. contradicts himself in the same post.
??L2 of bitcoin??.. (facepalm)
 
its not a bitcoin LAYER.. its a separate network.
you are still referring it as a second layer aka level of bitcoin..

its not like bitcoin is segments of an orange fruit and LN is the orange zesty skin that forms around bitcoin segmants (layer)
its not like LN is also some new tech 'quantum super position where it also is a citrus layer lemon fruit (LTC) at the same time..

LN is not about being layers/skins. version 2 of coins.
.. yes it pretends to be.. and you have fallen for that game. . but soon enough you will realise the game being played... but for now, seems your still stuck thinking of it as the skin of bitcoin.


LN is a hybrid tree which branches out to have different fruit. hooked to it
it is not the fruit itself
LN is a bridge between different cities. it is not the city or city street itself
LN is a boat between different continents. it is not the continent/country itself

LN is not a continents shoreline, thats physically part of that continent to give only that continents citizens somewhere nice to sunbathe
LN is not a ringroad owned/maintained by the city and only that city citizens can use
LN is not a skin of a fruit thats protects and useful only for that particular fruit

..
take the CBCD.
china have one. Switzerland have one, france have one, russia have one. but they can all connect to what is called an m-bridge.
the M-bridge is not a CBDC. its a type of 'new age world bank of SDR'
where by the SDR is not common "fiat"(fiat being old equivalent to CDBC)

LN wants to become the 'world bank' of crypto. 'world bank' is not 'dollar'
what they want to do is:
by locking crypto up where its main co-signer are elite services(megahubs). and then allow their customers to play with other denomination that are not as audited secure/valued as proper crypto.
(yep LN msats are not like digital gold LN msats are not btc)

so instead of concentrating on what other networks can do..
so instead of concentrating on trying to affix the bitcoin brand to other networks

.. maybe try to realise what is not bitcoin so that you can their reign in your support. and then put your support into what actually is bitcoin and what can actually be useful for BITCOIN

LN is a protocol. It was built to work with Bitcoin. It can and does work with several altcoins because it is just a protocol so anything that can compatibly link into that protocol will be able to implement LN. Just as higher protocols of the internet stack work with various lower protocol layers of that stack. Doesn't change the fact that LN is literally a layer on top of Bitcoin. It directly uses Bitcoin addresses. LN payments are Bitcoin payments. LN is a 2nd layer for Bitcoin (and others but since Bitcoin is the only money in the crypto world nobody cares about using LN on other blockchains).

Now sure when you use Bitcoin over LN there are different tradeoffs as opposed to using L1. Instead of data, fees, speed being the bottleneck/tradeoff as on L1, on L2 you have liquidity/channel-direction, needing to be online to receive, and needing to not lose the channel data.

- The liquidity/channel-direction problem seems like it can be solved or mostly solved with good node implementations behind the scenes, and payments being split up to be routed I believe is already somewhat implemented or being implemented so that helps with the liquidity routing problem. - Needing to be online could get a little annoying in a world where the average person is running a LN node on their phone and they aren't connected, but it seems like most people keep their phones connected all the time anyway, and obviously for anyone who is running a business in which they are taking payments over LN they are going to have a quality setup so that wouldn't be a problem anymore than it is for any business that relies on the internet.
- Needing to keep an up to date record of the channel seems to be the main technical problem that needs working through. Obviously having a setup that makes regular backups helps alleviate this a lot, but LN should be foolproof on this to really be a first-rate mass payment network. I did hear in a podcast a solution to it that would eliminate any need for watchtowers and any risk of losing channel data, but the person talking about the solution also seemed to be saying this solution would be bad for the base chain, I don't know anything beyond that in terms of what is being done to deal with that tradeoff. Obviously watchtowers are the easy but not ideal solution for this.

I guess the main other thing is that you need to on-board to the LN, but I imagine that will get easier and easier as time goes on, considering it is as simple as a friend setting up a channel with a new user.

LN still has a lot of development to go until it is ready for primetime (I mean like, El Salvador adopting Bitcoin and using LN is extremely early to be using LN as a mass solution), but it is usable now and is a great payment network for Bitcoin. You just have to realize it is a technology that is being used as it is maturing. If LN was some corporate product it very likely would even be released for a few years. But by releasing LN into the wild at a very early stage the protocol and implementations are able to advance with lots of user feedback to make a better payment network for Bitcoin. Just as early users of Bitcoin took the risk of putting money into something that may end up failing leading to loss of money, early users of LN put money into something that has kinks in it that may lead to loss of money.

I'm no expert on LN but I'm pretty sure what i've put here is quite accurate. And obviously the LN is a 2nd layer Bitcoin network is plain enough to understand. I don't even know wth you're taking about when you go on about LN is a world bank lol, that's some funny conspiracy theory stuff you got going there. Get on your tinfoil hat the elites are coming to control you!!  . And the msats are not btc is way overblown. They are just fractions of a sat. The msats are just rounded down to the nearest sat when settling to the basechain - not a big deal, very simple math.

[goldkingcoiner]

Bitcoin has no future as a payments network because of its inefficiency and high environmental costs, according to one of crypto’s most influential chief executives.

I read the headline as : Sam Bankman-Fried has no future as an influencial chief executive according to Bitcoin.

I mean seriously, anyone who is supposedly an influencial figure in crypto should at least understand what Bitcoin is becoming and that there is nothing standing in its way? Does he even take into consideration all the neverending upgrades that Bitcoin keeps going through or that Bitcoin can be scaled in two ways: the blockchain can be upgraded to enable greater throughput
and additional networks, called layers, can be created to allow bitcoin to be transferred without directly using the blockchain.

Which part of this is not scalable?

And the high environmental costs is the argument I hate most. The problem is not the fact that it uses electricity but rather that our current way of generating electricity is extremely dirty and would be just as environmentally damaging even if Bitcoin was never invented. The solution? Green resources and new energy technology.

This is why you can never trust a Bankman.

He is just spreading FUD so he can fill his own pockets like the other fudders with too much fiat.

[bbc.reporter]

Bitcoin has no future as a payments network because of its inefficiency and high environmental costs, according to one of crypto’s most influential chief executives.

I read the headline as : Sam Bankman-Fried has no future as an influencial chief executive according to Bitcoin.

I mean seriously, anyone who is supposedly an influencial figure in crypto should at least understand what Bitcoin is becoming and that there is nothing standing in its way? Does he even take into consideration all the neverending upgrades that Bitcoin keeps going through or that Bitcoin can be scaled in two ways: the blockchain can be upgraded to enable greater throughput
and additional networks, called layers, can be created to allow bitcoin to be transferred without directly using the blockchain.

Which part of this is not scalable?

And the high environmental costs is the argument I hate most. The problem is not the fact that it uses electricity but rather that our current way of generating electricity is extremely dirty and would be just as environmentally damaging even if Bitcoin was never invented. The solution? Green resources and new energy technology.

This is why you can never trust a Bankman.

He is just spreading FUD so he can fill his own pockets like the other fudders with too much fiat.

Agreed. And being honest with everyone, I really thought Sam Bankman-Fried would be one of the ethical founders in the cryptospace. Through Alameda Research, he and his team might have been trading against the users much of the time since the beginning. There are rumors that he made a deal with Jump Capital involving a large percentage of Serum tokens to manipulate retail investors into losing in Luna and UST. I do not have the whole story, however, more details will be shared soon.

[DapanasFruit]

The man is basing his comments with the way Bitcoin is in right now and yes we have to admit that as far as payments can be concerned Bitcoin is not what it is supposed to be and that is why many are questioning its viability on this aspect. Now, when we talk about payments maybe he can be referring to everyday small transactions because for big transactions like buying a car, a house or anything luxurious I think BTC has no problem in there. In case the challenges will never be addressed fully, then maybe we should be looking at Bitcoin really like a gold...and there is nothing wrong with that per se while still waiting for the appropriate infrastructure that can make BTC as good player in the payment industry.

[prosperoustop]

I know that a lot of brands start accept crypto as BTC and ETH! I am sure it will be use for payments!

[Natalim]

The man is basing his comments with the way Bitcoin is in right now and yes we have to admit that as far as payments can be concerned Bitcoin is not what it is supposed to be and that is why many are questioning its viability on this aspect. Now, when we talk about payments maybe he can be referring to everyday small transactions because for big transactions like buying a car, a house or anything luxurious I think BTC has no problem in there. In case the challenges will never be addressed fully, then maybe we should be looking at Bitcoin really like a gold...and there is nothing wrong with that per se while still waiting for the appropriate infrastructure that can make BTC as good player in the payment industry.

Assumptions can be sometimes great and positive but most of the time it was wrong and turn into FUD. He can be wrong or not, that was his prediction and market view based on what he observed in the past until today. Well, for us who are too optimistic about Bitcoin will certainly oppose his idea but yes, he got some point that the volatility of Bitcoins makes it hard to know where it will be going. In fact, some big and growing countries still declining crypto. This could be a factor that makes him think about it.

[Rengga Jati]

Bitcoin has no future as a payments network because of its inefficiency and high environmental costs, according to one of crypto’s most influential chief executives.

In my country, it is because of the regulation that bans Bitcoin as payment (although legal as commodity asset), because Bitcoin is decentralized so it cannot be controlled by the government and government is not responsible for any impact of Bitcoin.

“I don’t think that means bitcoin has to go,” he said, adding that the token may still have a future as “an asset, a commodity and a store of value” akin to gold.

I ma not sure about this, if this is so, there will be many more tokens created, it means that many more shit tokens created.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Disappointed in him but not unexpected. What do we think a fiat bro will say publicly, at least. He’s the owner of a shitcoin roulette casino, he profits from apes being over leveraged & getting liquidated. His honey is fiat money, I shouldn’t think he’s too bothered about bitcoin, he makes too much money other ways.

[bbc.reporter]

@LFC_Bitcoin. Agreed. I thought he would be one of the ethical founders in the cryptospace. However, he said this from an interview for a mainstream website. I am not certain what it implies, however, does he have an intention to bail out some of the cryptofunds and services in the cryptospace? He did this before when he helped save Sushiswap from failure on 2020.

If FTX and Alameda issues a public announcement of a bail out, this might cause a pump on much of the market hehehe.



"I do feel like we have a responsibility to seriously consider stepping in, even if it is at a loss to ourselves, to stem contagion," he said. "Even if we weren't the ones who caused it, or weren't involved in it. I think that's what's healthy for the ecosystem..."

Source https://mobile.twitter.com/sbf_ftx/status/1538518138685464577?s=12&t=iH_StnEokfjakkNbe0Tk3A

[franky1]

It directly uses Bitcoin addresses. LN payments are Bitcoin payments. LN is a 2nd layer for Bitcoin (and others but since Bitcoin is the only money in the crypto world nobody cares about using LN on other blockchains).

LN still has a lot of development to go until it is ready for primetime (I mean like, El Salvador adopting Bitcoin and using LN is extremely early to be using LN as a mass solution), but it is usable now and is a great payment network for Bitcoin. You just have to realize it is a technology that is being used as it is maturing.

lets first deal with these few details..
you might want to check it out for yourself and not rely on what another LN lover has told you..
decentralised independence also applies to research. not blind trust of a peer to do the checks for you..

the keys used inside an LN channel are not ones derived from a bitcoin core node. they are made purposefully inside a LN node using a variant whereby the users can reveal their private keys(secrets/revokes) after each channel state change to the partner to be used as a 'penalty method'

2. you also find that the payments. the messages that make 'payments' are not in a bitcoin transaction format.
not only are the values measured in msat. but it has none of the typical in-out layout of a bitcoin raw transaction
your confused between a LN payment and a commitment that happens after. they are 2 separate events.

have a little read of this
https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/04-onion-routing.md#tlv_payload-format
and https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/11-payment-encoding.md#payer--payee-interactions

as you can see the messages are not typical bitcoin formats. nor is the value in a sat measure that the bitcoin network will accept.

you will also learn that channel partners do not ever actually send to each other a full bitcoin raw tx format to each other EVER
(there are many bugs and flaws that cause LN nodes to accidental build a raw tx on their side using bad data from the payload/invoice of partner, when trying to translate convert the payload/invoice data into a bitcoin raw transaction o then hold as a possible commitment)

3. el salvador dropped using LN within a couple months, last year.. and is now using a custodial exchange.. as its backend for its chivo wallet (research alphapoint)
so yea do some research beyond the hype media of what the LN lovers pass between each other.. as that hype media is outdated and full of flaws

And the msats are not btc is way overblown. They are just fractions of a sat. The msats are just rounded down to the nearest sat when settling to the basechain - not a big deal, very simple math.

funny part is.. you were the one saying the payments were made in bitcoin format..
.. you might want to do the research mentioned above about when your "simple math" occurs. and how there are many ways to break the 1000:1 deemed peg that is not actually a fixed unbreakable consensus rule..

as for your thoughts that you still believe LN is a layer of bitcoin like a zesty skin of an orange there to protect and only surround bitcoin.. please please do more research. realise LN is a separate network that bridges between many blockchain currency networks. and wants to be the defacto network everyone jumps into and avoids using the main nets of actual blockchain currency networks.
all offramps to the bridge want people to get away from the bitcoin network and litecoin network where everyone locks up value and only plays with msat in the LN network

by the way its not my theory. its the LN fans sales pitch

[dansus021]

Does anyone with a little common sense believe that any of these famous people in the cryptocurrency world really believe in Bitcoin? They use it as a base to build various companies through which they will sooner or later try to sell some of their ideas on how there is something better than Bitcoin.

to be honest i would aggree with this one and also we can take example of dogecoin that has been multiple shilling by elon musk, in my opinion there is two crytpo influencer
1. the get paid for shilling
2. they buy the coin before the shilling so they can sell later on

[RussianEnglishTranslation]

I think the idea that "Bitcoin has no future as a payment's network" is an excuse for why 0xBitcoin on Ethereum was founded. They copied Bitcoin and convinced people to buy a fake Bitcoin on Ethereum and said that it was faster. IMO, the best way to scale Bitcoin is bigger blocks or integration with another chain like ICP or Flare.

[bbc.reporter]

FTX's Sam Bankman Fried became a hero when he saved Sushiswap and became the villain when everyone began to speculate that it was him through Alameda Research who was liquidating everyone. He is presently helping some of the largest cryptolending companies with their cashflow through providing USDC and Bitcoin revolvers hehehe. Will he become the hero again? The cryptospace has a memory of a goldfish.



NEW YORK, June 22, 2022 /PRNewswire/ - Voyager Digital Ltd. ("Voyager" or the "Company") (TSX: VOYG) (OTCQX: VYGVF) (FRA: UCD2) today announced its subsidiary, Voyager Digital Holdings, Inc. ("VDH"), has entered into a definitive agreement with Alameda Ventures Ltd. ("Alameda") related to the previously disclosed credit facility, which is intended to help Voyager meet customer liquidity needs during this dynamic period.

VDH entered into a definitive agreement with Alameda for a US$200 million cash and USDC revolver and a 15,000 BTC revolver (the "Loan"). As previously disclosed, the proceeds of the credit facility are intended to be used to safeguard customer assets in light of current market volatility and only if such use is needed. In addition to this facility, as of June 20, 2022, Voyager has approximately US$152 million cash and owned crypto assets on hand, as well as approximately US$20 million of cash that is restricted for the purchase of USDC.

Source https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/voyager-digital-provides-market-update-301572971.html

[examplens]

Theres tons of companies out there like Bitpay, https://bitpay.com/ Poof, https://www.poof.io/ Square, https://squareup.com/us/en or even Paypal https://paypal.com/ that process Bitcoin and there's tens of millions of merchants on top of them using Bitcoin as well.

The FTX chief can go fuck himself

Can you stop spamming with poof.io links? is that your service that you're trying to push in here?
Open a new ANN and dedicate it to poof, and then you can write about as much as you want. is that ok for you?