The average joe would never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees

[Stalker22]

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

As others have already pointed out, there is no card without a transaction fee, no matter who pays for it. And as for cash, can you recommend the best way to accept cash at an online store or for online services?
And, by the way, I consider myself an average user and bitcoin is very attractive to me.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Also many mobile wallets don't even support it.

The good ones do.

So maybe you don't pay that fee but you will also wait for a quiete long time or when the network is crowded can't get a confirmation at all.

Yes, but once the RBF-disabled transaction is broadcasted, you can't take it back. If the merchant wants to speed up the confirmation, he can pay the parent with a higher fee. Still, the fees he'll have to pay in bitcoin are less than with credit cards and other third parties.

[hZti]

So maybe you don't pay that fee but you will also wait for a quiete long time or when the network is crowded can't get a confirmation at all.

Yes, but once the RBF-disabled transaction is broadcasted, you can't take it back. If the merchant wants to speed up the confirmation, he can pay the parent with a higher fee. Still, the fees he'll have to pay in bitcoin are less than with credit cards and other third parties.

There are ways to take it back, like double spend with a high fee or it will be thrown out of the mempool after some time if the fee is to low.

[Ultegra134]

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

As others have already pointed out, there is no card without a transaction fee, no matter who pays for it. And as for cash, can you recommend the best way to accept cash at an online store or for online services?
And, by the way, I consider myself an average user and bitcoin is very attractive to me.

Card payments also have excessive fees, but they don't directly burden the consumers, since it falls on the vendors. However, to be honest I've found Bitcoin's fees excessive at times, especially during periods of bull market. For instance, back in December 2020, I had to pay a $25 fee for a 0.03 BTC transaction.

[kryptqnick]

Somehow transaction fees have been miraculously okay for almost a year now. Sure, sometimes they were higher than one would wish, but most of the time the fee is below $2, which is quite acceptable. Of course, if we're talking about paying for coffee, and then $1.5 of fees, it's not good. But if it's a solid purchase, such as groceries for a few days or a monthly pass for transport, or utility bills, the fees are, IMO, very acceptable. The problem might be with waiting if 0-confirmation transactions don't get accepted. But realistically, to pay for things that require fast processing of a transaction (in a physical shop or at a train station), custodial wallets or something like the LN would be needed.
But of course, for countries where many live in poverty, even $1.5 is significant and unacceptable as a fee. So yeah, it's not for everyone and not for every place.

[BlackHatCoiner]

It's possible to reverse an unconfirmed transaction, but much harder if it doesn't have opted-in RBF. Same can be said for a transaction with 1 confirmation. It's just very unlikely to be reversed.

like double spend with a high fee

If it has RBF disabled, then it'll be rejected from the overwhelming majority of nodes. You can bribe a miner do this for you, but still, it's not worth it. You'll have to pay the pool a decent amount and it's significantly uncertain. Since most pools will have the first transaction, it has more chances to be confirmed. And all this hustle and bustle for what? A hundred dollar bill in the supermarket?

Besides, credit card transactions are also reversible within the next few months. Remember, trust comes with a cost.

With the possibility of reversal, the need for trust spreads. Merchants must be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need. A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable. These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments over a communications channel without a trusted party.

[hZti]

like double spend with a high fee

If it has RBF disabled, then it'll be rejected from the overwhelming majority of nodes. You can bribe a miner do this for you, but still, it's not worth it. You'll have to pay the pool a decent amount and it's significantly uncertain. Since most pools will have the first transaction, it has more chances to be confirmed. And all this hustle and bustle for what? A hundred dollar bill in the supermarket?

Its not the point that it is unlikely to happen, but that it can possibly happen. For example I can see many people go shopping and just use a fee of 1,01 Sats vBite and get the transaction refunded after a few days without any effort.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Its not the point that it is unlikely to happen, but that it can possibly happen.

No, the point is the likelihood. Everything's possible to happen. The entire game theory can be proved wrong. Everyone can reverse transactions and destroy bitcoin. What matters is that it's highly unlikely, because everyone's discouraged from doing it.

For example I can see many people go shopping and just use a fee of 1,01 Sats vBite and get the transaction refunded after a few days without any effort.

I've never had any transaction with 1 sat/vbyte reversed. The longest I've waited is 1 week. Even if they do, which I find unlikely, they shouldn't revisit the same store. The reversal is, also, down to the merchant. If the merchant pays the parent, as I've said, your friends will normally have their transactions confirmed.

[DaveF]

And don't forget all the other bank fees and issues.

With cash you not only have to worry about out and out theft but also counterfeit bills and honest mistakes of wrong change amounts given.
More and more banks are charging fees to smaller businesses for certain types of transactions. Night deposit? Fee every month. Want a standing order for your opening cash in the morning? Fee every month. And so on. Do you think your or your employees time to count out the cash is free?

CCs have their own issues.

BTC is not perfect, but you can work with one of many payment processors, who for the most part take a smaller fee then CC processors, and you don't have to worry about anything and your fiat is transferred to your account daily, or however often you want it to be.

-Dave

[o_e_l_e_o]

Currently the network is not crowded at all, still the average fee per transaction is 0.5 USD.

The average fee is meaningless, because many exchanges and other centralized services which account for a large proportion of all transactions use unnecessary high fee rates at all times. The average fee I use, and I spend bitcoin far more frequently than most, is around 5 cents, not 50.

This is again a problem as you would have to wait for a few hours in a store to be able to leave with whatever you bought.

Then either the store owner accepts zero confirmation transactions or they accept Lightning.

Card payments also have excessive fees, but they don't directly burden the consumers, since it falls on the vendors.

Vendors don't just eat those fees though. They are priced in to everything you buy. You, the consumer, pays them, you just don't realize it.

For example I can see many people go shopping and just use a fee of 1,01 Sats vBite and get the transaction refunded after a few days without any effort.

I would challenge you to go and make a non-RBF 1 sat/vbyte transaction right now and then try to reverse it. I am certain that you will find it near impossible. It is certainly orders of magnitude more difficult than reversing a credit card transaction, which can be done with a simple phone call at any point in the next 6 months.

[Bitcoins101]

For small transactions you may be right, but it's used internationally more than you might think. There's a disappointingly small amount of development in regards to making bitcoin easier and faster to use for everyday transactions.

[hatshepsut93]

Bank fees are way higher than LN fees, it's just that typically merchants pay them, so customers don't notice it, because it gets priced into the goods. Idk what you mean by LN exposing merchant id, sounds like you are misinformed.

The bigger reason why Bitcoin is not adopted for payments is its volatility, it's frustrating to use a currency that changes its value every week.

[franky1]

The average joe would  never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees

Tell that to El Salvador citizens that use bitcoin as legal tender for everyday paymants by crypto wallet with build in lightining network.

DO YOUR RESEARCH

1. LN is not bitcoin. this topic is about bitcoin.. THE BITCOIN NETWORK and its fee's
please stop trying to advertise other networks.

2. EL salv' used a chivo wallet that was not bitcoin, the balance screen was measured in dollar not btc. . it allowed them to convert, but most payments were done within the chivo wallet system.. NOT BITCOIN and not LN

3. when el salv users using LN for 'payments' (as an option) they found using LN to be a failure with many payments failing and lots of liquidity problems with their exit hubs

4. el salv' actually dropped its lightning support many months ago. they now use a custodial service, because they seen first hand how many bugs, flaws and issues LN has

yep they now use alphapoint, a custodial service much like coinbase which handles merchant shopping cart tool, exchange and custodial wallets.

so please stop holding onto the utopian dream of LN being the answer..el salv tried it and dropped it in months.
LN is not the solution.
LN actually causes more headaches and issues for people. and the promise of cheap fee's is a lie if you do the maths of adding up all the micro fee's of the many hops needed per payment. aswell as how much value is locked up from use to open/close sessions, along with having your liquidity raided by other 'routers' using your balance before you can.

LN is not the solution
DO YOUR RESEARCH

Bank fees are way higher than LN fees, it's just that typically merchants pay them, so customers don't notice it, because it gets priced into the goods. Idk what you mean by LN exposing merchant id, sounds like you are misinformed.

to even be able to route. you, the nodes on the route and even the destination actually need to make all make their nodes and channels public, available and online. just to make a payment
 
yep.
there is even a LN statistic/explorer website that can tell you the identity of many merchants.. im sure you know it. so dont pretend you dont

ill give you a hint without linking it directly.. it sounds like 'wonemel'
1ml  .. but personally with all the boys club ass kissing and hugging each other i hear it more like 'wanna male?'

[Henrobakkara]

In my opinion you are right with that. There is the need for a consumer friendly option to send small amounts without TX fees and also with a very low verification time (10 seconds maximum). If that does not happen then there is no way bitcoin is used daily. In my option the fact that you have to wait 30-40 min for verification is even more important than the fees.

You could be right and we can also look at its volatility that will also stop some from accepting Bitcoin as a means of payment. Who wants to accept a certain amount only to fall in value in the next hours? However, I believe the market's varying times might spell different for Bitcoins acceptance as a means of payment since, during some times, it could be profitable to accept Bitcoin cos it will just increase in price. 

[PepeLapiu]

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement is a serious archilies heel preventing mass adoption for bitcoin.

In many poor countries people use cash as means of payment and no extra fees is levied. If each and every single transaction is levied fees, then people wont spend as much as they spend with cash. I mean if you even transfer from one wallet to another you are leived fees. 

The so called lightning network defense is not prudent as in lightning network the sellers ids is being broadcasted to everyone.

bitcoin will only be like gold aka store of value.

You must be young, as in below 40 years old.
I'm 54 y/o and when I was a kid there were no bank cards, no PayPay, no banking machines, and credit cards were for the rich. I would say that 90% of all transactions were done with cash, 5% were done with cheques, and less than 5% with credit cards.
Now, with the 90% done with cash, there was no such this as "consumer protection". Once you paid for your coffee, the deal was done, you couldn't reverse your transaction.

And at the time, there was very little fraud. Most of the fraud was done with cheques and counterfeit fiat.

Today credit card fraud, bank fraud, and banking card fraud are big business. Nobody robs a bank at gunpoint anymore, they rob the bank at mouse cursor point now. And it's a far bigger problem than most people imagine.

The problem is that you no longer walk around with a few $20 bills in your wallet. Now you walk around with the keys to your entire bank account on your phone or plastic card. That has caused a great deal of fraud.

People just have to relearn how money is supposed to work, like it did 40 years ago.

Money is supposed to be a store of value. It's not supposed to be a store of value you can manipulate or take back any time you want.

You just have to learn to be responsible with your money. You have no idea the cost of accepting payments that can be reversed for businesses.
Most businesses prefer cash over digital payments because the digital payments always comes with strings attached and fees. That gets baked into the price of everything you buy.

And you haven't looked very well into LN. It is far more private than any credit card payment you could ever think of.

[Lucius]

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement is a serious archilies heel preventing mass adoption for bitcoin.

Bitcoin was not created for those who are afraid of new challenges and for those who are blind followers of a system that keeps them on a short leash. Also, Bitcoin is not the ultimate solution to all our problems, but only an alternative for people who are able to be their own bank and accept all the risks that come with such responsibility.

Fees are never too high if you understand what input, output, transaction size, and mempool mean - I agree that the average Joe doesn't want to understand that, but Bitcoin is still for those who use a little more brain than the average Joe who has a plastic card and PIN and is incapable for nothing more than that.

bitcoin will only be like gold aka store of value.

For some, Bitcoin is nothing more than that - but everyone has the right to interpret it in their own way. Find out what the director of the ECB thinks about Bitcoin, and what the governor of the Bank of England or maybe the famous Warren Buffett thinks? Should they determine our destiny or maybe it’s time to start thinking with our heads?

[ranochigo]

Reimbursement of lost/stolen funds isn't a point that should incentivise people to use fiat/whatever payment method there is. It is a stupid excuse for people to have and it acts too much like a safety net that people can rely on. That shouldn't be the case, each individual is responsible for their own funds and in no circumstances should anyone be babysitting you or reversing your transactions at will. Coincidentally, payment methods like those also highlights the flaw with certain transactions that deals with intangible items, and resulting in a hard to proof scenario.

The main problem isn't the fees, it is the scalability and the transaction settlement. On-chain transactions cannot scale nor can it be faster than traditional payment methods. You are bound to face certain instances where you find the transaction fees surging after you send the transaction, and you end up waiting a ridiculous amount of time and spending more time trying to RBF it.

I agree, LN is not a solution. It merely alleviates the problem to a certain extent because you would still eventually be bounded by on-chain capacity when it gets large enough.

[goldkingcoiner]

For the love of all that is holy, if you use the lightning network and compare that to your regular joe's bank fees, you will realize that its the bank thats demanding the higher fees not Bitcoin. Furthermore, Joe has absolutely no control over his bank account and he is at the mercy of the government and the bank. Freezing accounts, forcefully withholding money, demanding arbitrary fees for the simple act of holding on to his fiat, which is becoming more and more worthless over time as the government just prints more and more as much as they want.

You really do not see how average Joe might prefer Bitcoin? Because everyone here on this forum definitely does.

[Ultegra134]

Card payments also have excessive fees, but they don't directly burden the consumers, since it falls on the vendors.

Vendors don't just eat those fees though. They are priced in to everything you buy. You, the consumer, pays them, you just don't realize it.

Indeed, that's why I mentioned that card transaction fees don't burden the consumer directly. Vendors pay an approximate 1.5 - 2% fee per card transaction, which has been factored into the consumer of course. Vendors take into account such costs when they create their pricing policy, however they are not directly visible to the consumer.

[Cling18]

I don't think Bitcoin transaction fees are hard to bear compared to the convenience that it could provide. Transaction fees in any form of payment are necessary even with banks. Bitcoin provides anonymity that no other mode of payment can do so its transaction fees are justifiable. Also, the tx fees nowadays aren't that high so it isn't a burden for most of the users.