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Author Topic: Computer Scientists say Crypto Industry is Misleading???  (Read 572 times)
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June 01, 2022, 11:40:41 PM
 #1

According to few popular computer scientists the crypto industry is misleading the public about blockchain technology.
The list were has 26 computer, Harvard lecturer Bruce Schneier, Microsoft engineer Miguel de Icaza and Google Cloud’s principal engineer Kelsey Hightower were few among them. This team of Computer Scientists have given a letter to the US Officials.

These Computer Scientists have given few statements on cryptocurrency and Blockchain technology.

  • "The claims that the blockchain advocates make are not true. It’s not secure, it’s not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.”
  • “We urge you to resist pressure from digital asset industry financiers, lobbyists and boosters to create a regulatory safe haven for these risky, flawed and unproven digital financial instruments"
  • "Crypto-assets have been the vehicle for unsound and highly volatile speculative investment schemes that are being actively promoted to retail investors who may be unable to understand their nature and risk.”
  • The computational power behind blockchain is the equivalent of what one could do in a centralized way with a $100 computer.
  • “We’re essentially wasting millions of dollars worth of equipment because we’ve decided that we don’t trust the banking system.”
Computer Scientists Say Crypto Industry Is Misleading the Public About Blockchain Technology

What about your view on these statements?

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June 02, 2022, 12:21:56 AM
Merited by LoyceV (6), o_e_l_e_o (4), vapourminer (2), pooya87 (2), mk4 (2), BlackHatCoiner (2), DdmrDdmr (1)
 #2

The computer scientists are correct about crypto aka shitcoins, but not Bitcoin.

-Bitcoin is secure, look this post

Let's say we have a trillion planet Earths. On each Earth, there are a trillion people. Each person has a trillion computers. Each computer generates a trillion keys a second. All these computers have been creating a trillion keys per second since the birth of the universe 13.7 billion years ago. 10^12 * 10^12 * 10^12 * 10^12 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 * 13.7 * 10^9 = 4.3*10^65. This means thay they would have so far generated approximately 0.0000000004% of all private keys.

-Bitcoin is decentralized, any miners who mine Bitcoin and validate the transaction are proving anyone can take a part in Bitcoin network.

-The failed to remember or lose the seeds/passphrase is the user fault, not Bitcoin.

-In Bitcoin no one force you to buy it, it's on your own belief to trust Bitcoin or not. If you didn't understand and know the risk about Bitcoin, then just don't buy Bitcoin. Buy any asset without any knowledge is really dumb.

-Blockchain is just a public ledger, where anyone can see any transactions. If you're referring to Bitcoin block, where it's mined and stored on the blockchain, then it's also secure since you can't add random block to the blockchain. You need to find and solve the right block, 51% attack is almost impossible when most of Bitcoin already being mined and the difficulty are increase a lot. In case if you want to learn about this https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/mastering-bitcoin/9781491902639/ch08.html

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June 02, 2022, 01:35:39 AM
 #3

It's not secure, it's not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.

I agree with Solosanz, and I guess others (Who know about Bitcoin) will be agreed. About password, This is the reason almost every Wallet and software suggest you store your keys safely. If you cannot take the risk, You shouldn't drive a bike or car too. It has the chance of a crash, and you may die. What a non-sense theory.

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June 02, 2022, 02:47:49 AM
Merited by LoyceV (4)
 #4

In summary: "Computer Scientists" makes comments on one of the most important technological and financial inventions in the last 15 years without knowing anything about money, markets in general, and the importance of decentralization.

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June 02, 2022, 03:29:58 AM
 #5

To a significant extent, they are correct. Indeed, the crypto industry has a lot of misleading claims. The claim of decentralization is one but foremost. And the industry has since been promoting and selling all kinds of products and services which are said to be decentralized. Crypto laymen might be enticed because of this magic word without knowing that it's just that, a word.

Blockchain is another prostituted term in the crypto industry. What's the big deal with this new kind of database? Security? Not really. Just hours ago, a largely popular blockchain, Solana, shut down.

And indeed, people are wasting not millions but billions in avoiding the banks and embracing DeFi.

Well, at least I haven't read the word Bitcoin in the article.

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June 02, 2022, 03:33:01 AM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (2)
 #6

The definitions defined in the claims are incorrect. Bitcoin is decentralized, can you shut down all of the nodes and erase Bitcoin? It is far easier to do so for the banking systems, and the point about lifesavings isn't really about how secure it is. If you cannot be trusted to manage something as simple as this, then you would be a great target for other SE or scamming attempt. The point with volatility is perfectly valid, but I see it as an inherent problem in the people's mindset and not with cryptocurrencies in general. They should address the root cause of the problem, by educating them and eradicating this fallacy.

Point 4 and 5 are not even worth discussing.

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June 02, 2022, 03:48:32 AM
Last edit: June 02, 2022, 04:03:07 AM by odolvlobo
Merited by hatshepsut93 (1)
 #7

Here is the letter:

Dear U.S. Congressional Leadership, Committee Chairs and Ranking Members,

We are 26 computer scientists, software engineers, and technologists who have spent decades working in these fields producing innovative and effective products for a variety of applications in database technology, cryptography, open-source software, and financial technology applications.

Today, we write to you urging the Committee to take a critical, skeptical approach toward industry claims that crypto-assets (sometimes called cryptocurrencies, crypto tokens, or web3) are an innovative technology that is unreservedly good. We urge you to resist pressure from digital asset industry financiers, lobbyists, and boosters to create a regulatory safe haven for these risky, flawed, and unproven digital financial instruments and to instead take an approach that protects the public interest and ensures technology is deployed in genuine service to the needs of ordinary citizens.

We strongly disagree with the narrative—peddled by those with a financial stake in the crypto-asset industry—that these technologies represent a positive financial innovation and are in any way suited to solving the financial problems facing ordinary Americans.

Not all innovation is unqualifiedly good; not everything that we can build should be built. The history of technology is full of dead ends, false starts, and wrong turns. Append-only digital ledgers are not a new innovation. They have been known and used since 1980 for rather limited functions.

As software engineers and technologists with deep expertise in our fields, we dispute the claims made in recent years about the novelty and potential of blockchain technology. Blockchain technology cannot, and will not, have transaction reversal mechanisms because they are antithetical to its base design. Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Financial technologies that serve the public must always have mechanisms for fraud mitigation and allow a human-in-the-loop to reverse transactions; blockchain permits neither.

By its very design, blockchain technology, specifically so-called “public blockchains”, are poorly suited for just about every purpose currently touted as a present or potential source of public benefit. From its inception, this technology has been a solution in search of a problem and has now latched onto concepts such as financial inclusion and data transparency to justify its existence, despite far better solutions already in use. After more than thirteen years of development, it has severe limitations and design flaws that preclude almost all applications that deal with public customer data and regulated financial transactions and are not an improvement on existing non-blockchain solutions.

Finally, blockchain technologies facilitate few, if any, real-economy uses. On the other hand, the underlying crypto-assets have been the vehicle for unsound and highly volatile speculative investment schemes that are being actively promoted to retail investors who may be unable to understand their nature and risk. Other significant externalities include threats to national security through money laundering and ransomware attacks, financial stability risks from high price volatility, speculation and susceptibility to run risk, massive climate emissions from the proof-of-work technology utilized by some of the most widely traded crypto-assets, and investor risk from large scale scams and other criminal financial activity.

We ask you to take a truly responsible approach to technological innovation and ensure that individuals in the US and elsewhere are not left vulnerable to predatory finance, fraud, and systemic economic risks in the name of technological potential which does not exist.

The risks and externalities related to blockchain technologies and crypto-asset investments are neither isolated nor are they the growing pains of a nascent technology. They are the inevitable outcomes of a technology that is not built for purpose and will remain forever unsuitable as a foundation for large-scale economic activity.

Given these risks and externalities, together with the—at best still-ambiguous and at worst non-existent—uses of blockchain, we recommend that the Committee look beyond the hype and bluster of the crypto industry and understand not only its inherent flaws and extraordinary defects but also the litany of technological fallacies it is built upon.

We need to act now to protect investors and the global financial marketplace from the severe risks posed by crypto-assets and must not be distracted by technical obfuscations which mask an abject lack of technological utility. We thank you for your leadership on financial technology and regulation and urge you to consider our objective and independent expert judgments to guide your legislative priorities, which we remain happy to discuss anytime.

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June 02, 2022, 04:06:59 AM
Last edit: June 03, 2022, 03:41:26 AM by mindrust
 #8

  • "The claims that the blockchain advocates make are not true. It’s not secure, it’s not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.”

Nonsense. You can forget the whereabouts of your gold and lose it, does that mean gold is not safe?

  • “We urge you to resist pressure from digital asset industry financiers, lobbyists and boosters to create a regulatory safe haven for these risky, flawed and unproven digital financial instruments"

I don't understand the motive here. Can't comment on this.

  • "Crypto-assets have been the vehicle for unsound and highly volatile speculative investment schemes that are being actively promoted to retail investors who may be unable to understand their nature and risk.”

Not sure about "unsound" but crypto is definitely very volatile and It is indeed being actively promoted to retail investors. And again, it is true that most investors don't have an idea of what they are doing. So, I pretty much agree with this.

  • The computational power behind blockchain is the equivalent of what one could do in a centralized way with a $100 computer.

If you want a centralized server you can have one for $100. The price for decentralization is much higher. So?

  • “We’re essentially wasting millions of dollars worth of equipment because we’ve decided that we don’t trust the banking system.”

Banking system did this to themselves. If he don't like crypto, he don't have to participate.

What about your view on these statements?

He has some legit concerns but the rest of the world won't care and crypto will do its thing anyway.






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June 02, 2022, 04:13:35 AM
 #9

It's not secure, it's not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.

I agree with Solosanz, and I guess others (Who know about Bitcoin) will be agreed. About password, This is the reason almost every Wallet and software suggest you store your keys safely. If you cannot take the risk, You shouldn't drive a bike or car too. It has the chance of a crash, and you may die. What a non-sense theory.


When someone forgets his password and lose life savings, its not the system's fault, its his fault that he didn't remember it.

When someone can just reset the password after recovering from an administrator of a system, then that's what a centralize system is. Which is also what decentralized system were trying to eliminate due to the risk from administrator's judgement like these scientists.
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June 02, 2022, 04:20:45 AM
Merited by vapourminer (4), o_e_l_e_o (4)
 #10

This is a problem I've been talking about for a couple of years now. A large number of shitcoins were created and some people looking from outside look at the whole thing that is also overshadowing bitcoin so they end up judging the whole thing and make an statement about the whole thing that includes thousands of shitcoins.
In other words they look at altcoins and judge bitcoin!

Otherwise every single statement they made is wrong a bout bitcoin but 100% correct about altcoins. Not just that, we've been saying pretty much the same things about altcoins ourselves, we didn't need some outsiders comment on them.

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odolvlobo
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June 02, 2022, 04:25:51 AM
Merited by BlackHatCoiner (2)
 #11

Quote
Today, we write to you urging the Committee to take a critical, skeptical approach toward industry claims that crypto-assets ... are an innovative technology that is unreservedly good.

Fair enough.

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We urge you to resist pressure ... to create a regulatory safe haven for these risky, flawed, and unproven digital financial instruments ...

Bitcoin doesn't need a regulatory safe haven.

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... and to instead take an approach that protects the public interest ...

Note that government interest is not necessarily the same as public interest, especially when the government interest is self-serving and benefits the elites.

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... and ensures technology is deployed in genuine service to the needs of ordinary citizens.

Ordinary citizens can decide for themselves if Bitcoin serves them or not. They don't need governments and academics to tell them what is good for them.

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We strongly disagree with the narrative ...

Fair enough.

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Not all innovation is unqualifiedly good; not everything that we can build should be built. The history of technology is full of dead ends, false starts, and wrong turns. Append-only digital ledgers are not a new innovation.

Irrelevant.

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Financial technologies that serve the public must always have mechanisms for fraud mitigation and allow a human-in-the-loop to reverse transactions..

That is your opinion, and the "deep expertise your fields" provides no support for that opinion.

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Finally, blockchain technologies facilitate few, if any, real-economy uses.

That is, of course, a narrow-minded view and it demonstrates a lack of any imagination and foresight. Besides, if cryptocurrencies never show any promise, they will go away without the need for any encouragement on your part.

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The risks and externalities related to blockchain technologies and crypto-asset investments are ... are the inevitable outcomes of a technology that is not built for purpose and will remain forever unsuitable as a foundation for large-scale economic activity.

What about as a foundation for small-scale economic activity, instead? Your small-minded views again show your lack of imagination and foresight.

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We need to act now to protect investors ... from the severe risks posed by crypto-assets ...

The best protection is information and not restrictions on what people can decide for themselves. Your kind of protection is a foundation of tyranny.

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so98nn
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June 02, 2022, 05:12:21 AM
 #12

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"The claims that the blockchain advocates make are not true. It’s not secure, it’s not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.”

Its highly secure, and it's secure with thousands of nodes getting integrated with data which is almost next to unreachable. Peeps are so crazy about it they have started to integrate quantum computing to break the code with at-most failure in the same.

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“We urge you to resist pressure from digital asset industry financiers, lobbyists and boosters to create a regulatory safe haven for these risky, flawed and unproven digital financial instruments"

There is no pressure at all. That's the beauty of crypto space. If you want to use it then use it. There is no documentation needed to transact on the blockchain, you are doing it at free will, so that statement is definitely contradictory.

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"Crypto-assets have been the vehicle for unsound and highly volatile speculative investment schemes that are being actively promoted to retail investors who may be unable to understand their nature and risk.”

The volatility is since it's inception but slowly every trader using it to day trade effectively and earn their daily wagers. So I would care less about its volatility in the long term usage.

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The computational power behind blockchain is the equivalent of what one could do in a centralized way with a $100 computer.

Thats really misleading statement. There is no proof like that. If you have to create solid system which can not be hacked, and has data integrity at its best then you need to invest into technological advances. Let's not forget those miners do get paid for the same.

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“We’re essentially wasting millions of dollars worth of equipment because we’ve decided that we don’t trust the banking system.”

We are not, because its a system where energy is utilised, we pay bills, money keeps circulating in the system and life goes on smoothly in the crypto space.

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June 02, 2022, 05:17:49 AM
 #13

The computer scientists are correct about crypto aka shitcoins, but not Bitcoin.

-Bitcoin is secure, look this post

Let's say we have a trillion planet Earths. On each Earth, there are a trillion people. Each person has a trillion computers. Each computer generates a trillion keys a second. All these computers have been creating a trillion keys per second since the birth of the universe 13.7 billion years ago. 10^12 * 10^12 * 10^12 * 10^12 * 60 * 60 * 24 * 365 * 13.7 * 10^9 = 4.3*10^65. This means thay they would have so far generated approximately 0.0000000004% of all private keys.

Thanks for sharing this Old post as it is worth to understand and believe as this will also boost Bitcoin supporters Mind and Heart reading this post .

I also believe that it is about SHitcoins and not Bitcoins because people tend to relate bitcoin to those shitcoins .

It's not secure, it's not decentralized. Any system where you forget your password and you lose your life savings is not a safe system.

I agree with Solosanz, and I guess others (Who know about Bitcoin) will be agreed. About password, This is the reason almost every Wallet and software suggest you store your keys safely. If you cannot take the risk, You shouldn't drive a bike or car too. It has the chance of a crash, and you may die. What a non-sense theory.


agree as well.. and Computer Scientist ? do they really understand this as a financial matter?

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June 02, 2022, 05:21:20 AM
 #14

I think they just wanted to make a statement about Bitcoin and how some other people have been misled by people who possibly don't know much about the crypto industry. Maybe they have relatives that a scam has victimized, and they have decided to let people "know" what they thought about crypto in general. It's still going to be per person to decide what they will do with their involvement in crypto.

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June 02, 2022, 05:34:02 AM
 #15

Bitcoin has been in existence for few years and no one has been been able to breach its security. It is completely safe and if we compare with physical money, it is easy to transfer as well. You can carry large amounts of money with convenience.

Now regarding it being misleading, it is not entirely true. There are some shitcoins which make fake promises and then break the trust of people. People should do own research before investing in any alt coin.  But bitcoin in general is just as what it was claimed to be.
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June 02, 2022, 05:37:19 AM
 #16

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The computational power behind blockchain is the equivalent of what one could do in a centralized way with a $100 computer.

This is basically trolling. Grin So they claim that a 100$ computer can consume more electricity than the country of Denmark. Grin
All their bullet points are the typical "crypto hater" BS we've heard for years. I'm surprised they didn't add the "crypto mining is polluting the environment" mantra or the "crypto is being used by criminals and terrorists" mantra.
Nobody is actively promoting cryptocurrencies as a some sort of financial Eldorado (except a few scammers and con artists pumping their shitcoins).
There's no perfect system, that can protect the humans from their own stupidity. Even blockchain technology can't do this.
I remember a guy, who wrote "everybody loves decentralization, until there's no customer support and refund option". He's kinda right.
Most of the people aren't responsible enough to handle their own assets.

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June 02, 2022, 05:50:25 AM
 #17

The whole "Big Pharma" industry are full of experts and see what they did with the Covid fiasco.  Roll Eyes  The government was misguided by experts in the medical industry and millions of people died as a result. The severe consequences of the vaccine was ignored and the long-term affect of the vaccine will kill a lot more people. (amyloid clots)

Let's see the names of the so-called "expert" computer scientists and then dig a little deeper to see who they worked for and who are they working for now. (Even experts can be bought to push a specific agenda)  Wink

Their goal is to “counter-lobby” current Blockchain lobbying groups....... SO, we know what their agenda is. (Question is.. who is paying for this)

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June 02, 2022, 06:04:31 AM
 #18

The whole "Big Pharma" industry are full of experts and see what they did with the Covid fiasco.  Roll Eyes  The government was misguided by experts in the medical industry and millions of people died as a result. The severe consequences of the vaccine was ignored and the long-term affect of the vaccine will kill a lot more people.

Let's see the names of the so-called "expert" computer scientists and then dig a little deeper to see who they worked for and who are they working for now. (Even experts can be bought to push a specific agenda)  Wink

Their goal is to “counter-lobby” current Blockchain lobbying groups....... SO, we know what their agenda is. (Question is.. who is paying for this)
True thaaat. We all know what this whole big fiasco about Bitcoin is. same old people now using so-called computer scientists to try to discredit Bitcoin so it will look more valid because other people have tried and have failed. It's simple, don't invest in what you don't understand as someone also mentioned earlier but I don't get why you need to convince others to follow you. 
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June 02, 2022, 07:20:38 AM
Merited by vapourminer (2), pooya87 (2), BlackHatCoiner (2), Don Pedro Dinero (1)
 #19

I'm very disappointed to see Bruce Schneier's name on this list. He sits on the board of both the EFF and The Tor Project, and as such, is supposed to be a proponent of digital rights, self custody, privacy, censorship resistance, and all the things that bitcoin stands for. To see his name, and therefore EFF and Tor, attached to this statement is highly concerning:
Quote
Similarly, most public blockchain-based financial products are a disaster for financial privacy; the exceptions are a handful of emerging privacy-focused blockchain finance alternatives, and these are a gift to money-launderers. Financial technologies that serve the public must always have mechanisms for fraud mitigation and allow a human-in-the-loop to reverse transactions; blockchain permits neither.
A board member of both the EFF and Tor saying that all systems should have someone in the middle who can monitor everything you do and reverse it if they want? This is the complete opposite of what these projects stand for.

And as I've said before, I always find it funny when anyone says something along these lines:
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Finally, blockchain technologies facilitate few, if any, real-economy uses.
Oh, bitcoin doesn't have any real world use? And here's me spending it every other day for over 5 years at probably hundreds of different merchants by this point. Whoops! Guess that doesn't count?



On a wider note, what pooya87 has said above is absolutely spot on. Everything they have said - insecure, centralized, risky, no real world use, scams, etc. - all hold true for 99% of alts. Altcoins give bitcoin a bad name by association, and the sooner that alts all go the way of Luna and collapse in a disaster of their own making, the better for us all.
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June 02, 2022, 11:31:16 AM
Merited by vapourminer (2), pooya87 (2), BlackHatCoiner (2)
 #20

One word: Frauds!

Banks could just scrap their decades-old legacy, insecure and unsafe processing systems and adopt decentralized blockchain tech in their place.

But since they don't want to do this, we have to show them the hard way.

Once again, people are trying to maintain the idea that Bitcoin and other cryptos (those that are useful, that is) are mainly used for trading. This is not what Satoshi had in mind when he invented the blockchain.

I've said it in quite a few places, they are meant to be an instrument for global cross-payments. It's not merely because we don't trust the banking system, it's because the technology powering it has become obsolete. It would not be an exaggeration to say America's banks alone sustain hundreds of attempted hacks per day - against COBOL programs and mainframes!

Meanwhile, fintechs are trying really hard to [among other things] bank the unbanked, with their own proprietrary systems. Nothing wrong with that, and hey - it's good that these guys can now do what banked people can do - but these initiatives are often limited to a single country.

Bitcoin is the first global means of payment invented. Let that sink into your head. And let's forget about the bulk of the get-rich-quick coins for a second - They never served a useful purpose for the masses anyway.

And to say, over everything else, that you don't believe a crypto is secured because you can lose the password to your wallet - that is the ultimate blasphemy. Because you can already get locked out of your social media and banks if you forget your password and lose your 2FA anyway [in the case of banks they probably ask for your ID or SSN to give you back access. Let's not forget though that Bitcoin is a technology for banking the unbanked who do not have this type of info.]

So it's not a question about "why don't we trust the system", it's whether the current global community can afford to trust the system. You'll find that most of them will say no, because then they would have no money! Cash is out of the question, because it can inflate and lose its value over a year [especially in 3rd world countries].

This leaves the only option left to the masses - cryptocurrency. And whosoever comes to this space just to invent a coin to dump it later, then damned be to them. This industry is for REAL users only.

And anyone, who thinks, whether by writing a letter, or a legislation, that they can take this free technology away from the people, is mistaken. For crypto is the symbol of total financial freedom.

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