Will it ever be for Belarus?

[DrBeer]

Lukashenko is cut from the same cloth as Putin and was actually trying to position himself to take over from Yeltsin before Putin got a grip on power. Once these two greedy and selfish old men run out of time it will free an opportunity up a small window of opportunity for these countries yet again. Unfortunately these windows often get seized by the next dictator instead of offering a chance for democracy and innovation to thrive.

What really surprises me about the adherents of Western democracy is their absolute intolerance to alternative forms of government and their aggressive attitude towards any manifestation of dissent in the sphere of government. Why try to equate everyone with the same brush, ignoring natural diversity for historical reasons and differences in cultural traditions?

The question is simple, but tell me - where is dissent really considered a crime, and for any disagreement with the "only true point of view" - are people detained and given very real terms of imprisonment? And massively, for no reason, on far-fetched pretexts, and even for simply reading the Constitution of the country in which you live? Well, or oppose the war and the killing of civilians?
Where are all state channels (and there are no others) around the clock promoting terrorism and calling for the destruction of neighboring countries that do not want to be friends of this country? Where the army does not serve the people, protecting them according to the constitution, but a bunch of kleptomaniac maniacs, and carry out their criminal orders, killing citizens of other countries, because that bunch of kleptomaniac terrorists do not like a different way of life in another country? Can you name such a country?

Or a country where the people, having voted for another presidential candidate, receive a total election fraud, and an old, rotten president. And in demanding that their rights be respected, people receive either a bullet in the stomach or mass detentions and sadistic torture in the police station? Where, if you do not support the "party line" (dissent) - you are a criminal, and you and your relatives will be monitored and threatened, you will most likely be laid off at work, and you will be deprived of the right to comply with the law in relation to you? Can you name such a country?
And then - an example of "Western democracy" with the same manifestations? Well, to be honest

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[kryptqnick]

I think it's possible for Belarus to get the support and become pro-European. But only over time and without Lukashenko. He is a dictator, largely Putin's pawn (although retains a fraction of independence), hijacked the elections despite allegations of major fraud taking place to present him as a winner. EU won't help this guy, especially not after the extensive involvement of Belarus in the war in form of giving Russia a territory from which they can fire missiles on Ukraine, deploy troops and stuff like that.
To those saying that democracy is a Western thing that should not be pushed on other countries like Belarus:
1. I think it's up to the majority of people in Belarus to decide which form of government they prefer. Lukashenko was in power as a legimitate (=supported by the majority) leader, but the last elections demonstrated that maybe it's not the case anymore.
2. We're talking about EU giving 3 billion dollars of financial support to Belarus. If Belarus wants to keep being authoritarian, then they can be, but the EU has no reason to give them support in that case.

[DrBeer]

Be kind - and inform in which country you live, we will understand who is close to culture and civilized norms! Well, seriously - it's very interesting to understand what you put into these concepts. But let it be on the example of your country, as they say "a living example"! I'm sure there will be many "surprises" if we delve into the study of "culture" ...

I hate to repeat things, and most already know what country I come from - the thing is pretty obvious to anyone who wants to know it. I think that my country is also very far from the standards that would classify it as an appropriate member of the EU, but Brussels bureaucrats considered it a desirable cube in their mosaic because of its geostrategic position and of course cheap labor.

I know that you strongly represent the interests of your country and I have nothing against Ukraine becoming a member of the EU one day, but in less than 10 years since my country become EU member we lost over 400 000 people, paid a lot of money into the EU budget and fell on the bottom of the same EU.

If you are naive to think that the EU will solve Ukraine's problems now or in the future, then you live in that belief - in 100 days of war they hardly did anything concrete - without US military aid, where would Ukraine be today?

Often the question worries - why do people, instead of a short answer in fact, start writing opuses where there is no answer ?!
But everything you wrote next is a clear departure from the question that I asked. Did not notice ? The main point of my question refers to your phrase about "culture and civilized norms", and not about the benefit of the EU.
By the way, looking at what is happening in the EU, when the issue "becomes an edge", I already doubt that it makes sense to have an alliance with "old Europe", whose elites have chosen the role of corrupt, corrupt, bedding of the Kremlin, and not strong, independent countries. But it is on their conscience.
Therefore, I repeat the question once again - in what kind of cultural and civilized country do you live? Or will you hide it, due to the fact that it is not so cultural and civilized?

[el kaka22]

Belarus hasn't been a democratic nation for a long time and I doubt that it will ever be one, no matter how much money you may throw into that nation there will be never a fair elections there where the president would be willing to take the money and leave the position.

You can give the president 3 billion dollars directly into his bank account, and he would still prefer to keep his power over money because when you have the power, money means nothing. In a world where you are a dictator ruling over the nation as you wish without fear of losing, money means nothing, EVERYTHING is free to you, you could do whatever you want and not pay a single cent.

[DrBeer]

I live in the Urals, in a small town on the shores of a large beautiful lake. There are many trees and nice architecture. Modern cars drive along the streets, there is public transport, a taxi for 120 rubles (about two dollars) will take you to any address within the city. Although I prefer walking or cycling. Unlimited Internet 150 Mbps costs 390 rubles per month (about $7). Crime is almost non-existent as a genre, there are no bars on the windows of the houses, I leave my bike on the street near the house and no one wants to steal it. People here know about terrorists or mass shooting only on TV from the news about the USA. Why go to protest rallies, what should I protest against? Why should I try to change a system that works quite well in practice?

... but to answer my question, and to name the countries where the described events regularly occur, did not have the courage!? expected

Decided to boast as an "achievement" or an indicator of the best well-being, what is already considered normal for others? And of course - if there is Internet for $ 7 - that's it, life is good!
By the way, I didn’t talk about any protests, I talked about the persecution of any dissent (reread the previous posts), the lack of legality, totalitarianism, the criminality of the authorities ... But you have Internet for $ 7, how stupid I am with such questions against the background of such global advantage! Unfortunately, I do not know the slang expression for translation, for your status, which we call "merged"


PS. But these figures about cheap taxis and cheap Internet - is that all you are proud of? In Kyiv, an unlimited package that I have at home - 1Gb / sec (Ukraine) + 500 Mb (worldwide) + IPTV (about 200 very high-quality channels) costs 288 UAH, or $ 8 Taxi is absolutely affordable. But there is also municipal, convenient transport, and no one has canceled personal transport!
I live in Kiva, the apartment is located in a complex, which is located in the middle of the park, and from the window the park area starts 15 meters away. At 50 meters from the rear exit, there is a seating area + barbecue area. Windows in all rooms, except one, and a balcony overlook the forest. In the park area of ​​the lake, ducks, hedgehogs, squirrels, even a beaver lives Birds sing beautifully from early morning. Convenient transport interchange is not far at all, the metro is a 10-minute walk, many types of municipal and commercial transport, its own parking on the territory of the complex. But I'm not proud of it, I think it's normal and natural, and I don't think it's something outstanding

[LoyceMobile]

EU buys influence in many countries, and it's one of the things I don't like about EU.

And tell me who is not buying influence today, if we take into account the most powerful countries in the world? If you look at what China or the US are doing on this issue, but also what Russia has been doing for 20-30 years, then I would say that the EU is very incompetent in its efforts.

And that's indeed another thing I don't like about EU. They're incompetent because they want to please everyone for their moral high ground agenda. China doesn't have that "problem": they do what's best for China.

[be.open]

The question is simple, but tell me - where is dissent really considered a crime, and for any disagreement with the "only true point of view" - are people detained and given very real terms of imprisonment? And massively, for no reason, on far-fetched pretexts, and even for simply reading the Constitution of the country in which you live? Well, or oppose the war and the killing of civilians?
Where are all state channels (and there are no others) around the clock promoting terrorism and calling for the destruction of neighboring countries that do not want to be friends of this country? Where the army does not serve the people, protecting them according to the constitution, but a bunch of kleptomaniac maniacs, and carry out their criminal orders, killing citizens of other countries, because that bunch of kleptomaniac terrorists do not like a different way of life in another country? Can you name such a country?

Offhand, the first thing that comes to mind is, of course, Ukraine. Zelensky banned any opposition and got rid of all politically significant competitors. And the army of Ukraine does not protect its people, but uses them as human shields, acting like terrorists.

But of course you meant something else, for example Lukashenko or Putin?

I live in the Urals, in a small town on the shores of a large beautiful lake. There are many trees and nice architecture. Modern cars drive along the streets, there is public transport, a taxi for 120 rubles (about two dollars) will take you to any address within the city. Although I prefer walking or cycling. Unlimited Internet 150 Mbps costs 390 rubles per month (about $7). Crime is almost non-existent as a genre, there are no bars on the windows of the houses, I leave my bike on the street near the house and no one wants to steal it. People here know about terrorists or mass shooting only on TV from the news about the USA. Why go to protest rallies, what should I protest against? Why should I try to change a system that works quite well in practice?

... but to answer my question, and to name the countries where the described events regularly occur, did not have the courage!? expected

Decided to boast as an "achievement" or an indicator of the best well-being, what is already considered normal for others? And of course - if there is Internet for $ 7 - that's it, life is good!
By the way, I didn’t talk about any protests, I talked about the persecution of any dissent (reread the previous posts), the lack of legality, totalitarianism, the criminality of the authorities ... But you have Internet for $ 7, how stupid I am with such questions against the background of such global advantage! Unfortunately, I do not know the slang expression for translation, for your status, which we call "merged"


PS. But these figures about cheap taxis and cheap Internet - is that all you are proud of? In Kyiv, an unlimited package that I have at home - 1Gb / sec (Ukraine) + 500 Mb (worldwide) + IPTV (about 200 very high-quality channels) costs 288 UAH, or $ 8 Taxi is absolutely affordable. But there is also municipal, convenient transport, and no one has canceled personal transport!
I live in Kiva, the apartment is located in a complex, which is located in the middle of the park, and from the window the park area starts 15 meters away. At 50 meters from the rear exit, there is a seating area + barbecue area. Windows in all rooms, except one, and a balcony overlook the forest. In the park area of ​​the lake, ducks, hedgehogs, squirrels, even a beaver lives Birds sing beautifully from early morning. Convenient transport interchange is not far at all, the metro is a 10-minute walk, many types of municipal and commercial transport, its own parking on the territory of the complex. But I'm not proud of it, I think it's normal and natural, and I don't think it's something outstanding

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories and I try to stay close to reality in my life (because life is good and illusions tend to disappoint). The wording of your questions seems strange and politically biased to me, which is at least inappropriate in the section on the economy.

The attempt of the opposition in Belarus in the last elections was audacious and almost successful, but it failed. Personally, I consider Lukashenko to be quite a cool European dictator who, while maintaining the originality and self-identity of his people, is pursuing a quite reasonable pro-Russian policy. Recently, several shops with Belarusian products have appeared in my city at once and they sell all kinds of delicious food at reasonable prices - cheeses, apple cider, marmalade, marshmallows, etc. I like Belarus, maybe some civil liberties are missing there, but from the Russian side it looks quite harmonious.

[DrBeer]

I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories and I try to stay close to reality in my life (because life is good and illusions tend to disappoint). The wording of your questions seems strange and politically biased to me, which is at least inappropriate in the section on the economy.

The attempt of the opposition in Belarus in the last elections was audacious and almost successful, but it failed. Personally, I consider Lukashenko to be quite a cool European dictator who, while maintaining the originality and self-identity of his people, is pursuing a quite reasonable pro-Russian policy. Recently, several shops with Belarusian products have appeared in my city at once and they sell all kinds of delicious food at reasonable prices - cheeses, apple cider, marmalade, marshmallows, etc. I like Belarus, maybe some civil liberties are missing there, but from the Russian side it looks quite harmonious.

Politically biased?
Let's tell an educational program
So, what is this "political engagement"? This is how it is interpreted in Russian-language sources: POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT - an expression used to emphasize the political coloring of someone's position or sympathies. For example, evaluating a speech as politically engaged means that the speaker pursued a certain political line, or expressed his sympathy for certain ideas, or generally fulfilled someone's social order, etc.

And now tell me - where is the political bias in my question? Did I express any sympathy? emphasized the poly-secret coloration? Not ! I just cited a few facts that, with a non-zero probability, can be in many countries with different political structures. But vyf perfectly understood in which country these events are in full set and constantly occur In general, there is no need for a better answer, thank you!

And about normal, high-quality products - what about Russia, which has "the largest resources in the world", a problem with high-quality products? Or do they not bring normal products to your region? 

[be.open]

Politically biased?
Let's tell an educational program
So, what is this "political engagement"? This is how it is interpreted in Russian-language sources: POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT - an expression used to emphasize the political coloring of someone's position or sympathies. For example, evaluating a speech as politically engaged means that the speaker pursued a certain political line, or expressed his sympathy for certain ideas, or generally fulfilled someone's social order, etc.

And now tell me - where is the political bias in my question? Did I express any sympathy? emphasized the poly-secret coloration? Not ! I just cited a few facts that, with a non-zero probability, can be in many countries with different political structures. But vyf perfectly understood in which country these events are in full set and constantly occur In general, there is no need for a better answer, thank you!

Anyone who reads your messages will easily notice that you are strongly politically biased in favor of Ukraine. So much so that there is a possibility that you are an employee of the center of information and psychological operations. I'm not blaming you for this, just stating a fact.

And about normal, high-quality products - what about Russia, which has "the largest resources in the world", a problem with high-quality products? Or do they not bring normal products to your region? 

Since 2014, Russia has spent a lot of effort to strengthen its food security and has achieved notable results in this matter. But they never learned how to make good cheese, cheese from Belarus is tastier.

[Smartprofit]

This was published in 2021 in the official EU portal:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_21_2685

Today, the European Commission is presenting to the Council its outline for a comprehensive plan of economic support to a future democratic Belarus. The plan, of up to €3 billion, reflects the European Union's commitment to support the Belarusian people's wishes for a peaceful democratic transition in the country following the Presidential elections of August 2020, which were neither free nor fair.

Once Belarus embarks on a democratic transition, the EU will activate the €3 billion package, a mix of grants and loans leveraging public and private investments, to help Belarus to stabilise its economy, reform its institutions to make them more democratic and help increase the economy's resilience, growth potential and job creation.

Just to put it in context, Belarus has 9 million habitants. This investment would be very significant.

Is the opportunity gone? Lukashenko has shown that, while having the RF as largest commercial partner at the moment, the EU may be the future. It may catch you as a surprise but there are actual EU funded projects ongoing.

https://euprojects.by


Do you think the support to the Russian cause will cause these aids to cease? Is the relationship broken forever?

I recently visited Belarus.  

It is difficult for me to judge the functioning of the repressive apparatus of this country (fortunately, I have not come across this).  

But the general impression of the country is positive.  Very clean, people don't litter.  

There are well-dressed passers-by on the streets, all in brand new sneakers and stylish youth clothes.  The shops have a lot of delicious food and liquor.  Lots of young parents with kids.  The people are friendly and easy to get in touch with.  There are a lot of sportsmen (runners, cyclists, football players) in the parks.  

The country itself is very similar to Poland.  I find it difficult to say whether Belarus will be better or worse if it joins the European Union.

[Majestic-milf]

This was published in 2021 in the official EU portal:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_21_2685

Today, the European Commission is presenting to the Council its outline for a comprehensive plan of economic support to a future democratic Belarus. The plan, of up to €3 billion, reflects the European Union's commitment to support the Belarusian people's wishes for a peaceful democratic transition in the country following the Presidential elections of August 2020, which were neither free nor fair.

 [Quote/]Once Belarus embarks on a democratic transition, the EU will activate the €3 billion package, a mix of grants and loans leveraging public and private investments, to help Belarus to stabilise its economy, reform its institutions to make them more democratic and help increase the economy's resilience, growth potential and job creation.

Just to put it in context, Belarus has 9 million habitants. This investment would be very significant.

Is the opportunity gone? Lukashenko has shown that, while having the RF as largest commercial partner at the moment, the EU may be the future. It may catch you as a surprise but there are actual EU funded projects ongoing.

https://euprojects.by


Do you think the support to the Russian cause will cause these aids to cease? Is the relationship broken forever?

 I stand to be corrected, but in my opinion, the EU is synonymous with a a snake. Imagine presenting them with a package they can't refuse. It's quite a welcome development that they have decided to seek to be democratic and are getting support from the EU, but is this support out of benevolence? I don't think so.
  I cannot imagine a country where citizens are not free to exercise their voting rights as if you do, you will be detained. I mean, WTF? I feel Lukashenko needs to hand over the baton. This will help them have the freedom to grow their economy and not worry about paying a certain percentage to the Soviet.

[DrBeer]

Politically biased?
Let's tell an educational program
So, what is this "political engagement"? This is how it is interpreted in Russian-language sources: POLITICAL ENGAGEMENT - an expression used to emphasize the political coloring of someone's position or sympathies. For example, evaluating a speech as politically engaged means that the speaker pursued a certain political line, or expressed his sympathy for certain ideas, or generally fulfilled someone's social order, etc.

And now tell me - where is the political bias in my question? Did I express any sympathy? emphasized the poly-secret coloration? Not ! I just cited a few facts that, with a non-zero probability, can be in many countries with different political structures. But vyf perfectly understood in which country these events are in full set and constantly occur In general, there is no need for a better answer, thank you!

Anyone who reads your messages will easily notice that you are strongly politically biased in favor of Ukraine. So much so that there is a possibility that you are an employee of the center of information and psychological operations. I'm not blaming you for this, just stating a fact.

Engagement, I repeat for you individually, is an attempt to wishful thinking, or to attribute exclusively positive characteristics to the side of sympathy.
I'm just stating the facts of terrorist aggression against my country. Massacre of civilians. Looting by both terrorist soldiers and the state. Theft, sadism, inhumanity ... Where is the bias? Can you, without taking it out of context, give my answers where I one-sidedly elevate Ukraine? No, not facts, but precisely one-sidedly, without arguments and facts, I give preference to Ukraine? I am writing about the fact that Russia is a terrorist, and not that Ukraine is the best. Unlike you, who draws absolutely not a real, fantastic picture about Russia
As I understand it, instead of answers, you only have accusations of some far-fetched reasons? Not surprised at all!

And about normal, high-quality products - what about Russia, which has "the largest resources in the world", a problem with high-quality products? Or do they not bring normal products to your region? 

Since 2014, Russia has spent a lot of effort to strengthen its food security and has achieved notable results in this matter. But they never learned how to make good cheese, cheese from Belarus is tastier.

I am absolutely honest, once again I say that I love your humor Food safety is palm oil, the lowest quality instead of dairy products, this is feed grain instead of normal, for making bread, this is an increase in prices for an ersatz product that is passed off as products. Russia succeeded in protecting the food sector, like almost everything it does

[Ozero]

The support program for Belarus was adopted by the EU countries after they saw that Lukashenka could gradually move away from Putin's influence and is making attempts to negotiate with the West. However, this was before the full-scale invasion of Russia into Ukraine, when, including from the territory of Belarus, Ukraine was attacked by Russian troops, and the shelling of Ukraine is still continuing from the territory of Belarus. Therefore, Belarus is recognized as the same aggressor as Russia, and similar international sanctions are taken against it. The attitude towards Belarus will largely depend on whether Ukraine will be attacked by these armed forces. The people of Belarus, including its military, do not want to fight with Ukraine, and it is quite possible that if a decision is made to invade, a significant part of Belarusians will either immediately lay down their arms or go over to the side of Ukraine. Already, a significant number of Belarusians are fighting on the side of Ukraine, who express plans after the war in Ukraine to go against the Lakashenko regime.
Lukashenka understands this and tries in every possible way to evade the invasion of Ukraine, which Putin imposes on him. Therefore, after Lukashenka is removed from power, democratic reforms can begin there with the support of European countries, unless, of course, Belarus is directly or covertly occupied by Russians.

[teosanru]

This was published in 2021 in the official EU portal:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/ip_21_2685

Today, the European Commission is presenting to the Council its outline for a comprehensive plan of economic support to a future democratic Belarus. The plan, of up to €3 billion, reflects the European Union's commitment to support the Belarusian people's wishes for a peaceful democratic transition in the country following the Presidential elections of August 2020, which were neither free nor fair.

Once Belarus embarks on a democratic transition, the EU will activate the €3 billion package, a mix of grants and loans leveraging public and private investments, to help Belarus to stabilise its economy, reform its institutions to make them more democratic and help increase the economy's resilience, growth potential and job creation.

Just to put it in context, Belarus has 9 million habitants. This investment would be very significant.

Is the opportunity gone? Lukashenko has shown that, while having the RF as largest commercial partner at the moment, the EU may be the future. It may catch you as a surprise but there are actual EU funded projects ongoing.

https://euprojects.by


Do you think the support to the Russian cause will cause these aids to cease? Is the relationship broken forever?

Obviously, now that EU is clear that Belarus is going to side with Russia no matter what happens, EU will definitely not aid Belarus in any manner, no matter if the world comes to peace tomorrow. If EU does try to give them this package Russia will give them a bigger package but make sure that EU doesn't offers them anything because Belarus is undoubtedly the most important strategic partner of Russia. So I feel this relationship is definitely broken forever.

[bustabitsboy]

I think what we're seeing in the world right now won't last long. After a certain amount of time, the situation will change and the laws of the economy will put everything in its place. In the world the laws of the market and free competition are constantly working and trade relations between countries will be strengthened. I am sure that Belarus will take its rightful place in the world market and it will not face any obstacles to trade.