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Author Topic: Just a video about how bad some security holograms are  (Read 499 times)
DaveF (OP)
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June 05, 2022, 10:38:38 PM
Last edit: June 06, 2022, 12:11:59 AM by DaveF
Merited by krogothmanhattan (10), LoyceV (4), NeuroticFish (1), owlcatz (1), SFR10 (1), DdmrDdmr (1), Rizzrack (1)
 #1

Although the video is not related to BTC / crypto collectables everyone should keep this in the back of their head coins go person to person to person.
Some holograms are good others are...well....watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJtqvYDnkg

With no offense to any one particular maker, do we really know how good the holograms really are?

Hint....no we do not.

-Dave

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June 05, 2022, 11:21:28 PM
 #2

Damn that was way too easy.  Thanks for the video.
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June 05, 2022, 11:32:30 PM
 #3

wonder if that would harm a private key printed on regular paper. I use Revla paper (thanks to DaveF) and I am sure that would not be affected by this method. makes me question any second hand coin now...

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June 06, 2022, 12:08:21 AM
Merited by yogg (1)
 #4

wonder if that would harm a private key printed on regular paper. I use Revla paper (thanks to DaveF) and I am sure that would not be affected by this method. makes me question any second hand coin now...

Would it matter what happens to the paper? Once the hologram is off you can always reprint it.

I mentioned it to someone else in a PM but:

Certain issues have been well known for 9 years
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins/

Supposedly they (Casascius) fixed their holograms.
But with everyone else we have to hope they bought their holograms from a quality maker and not just the lowest cost one.

-Dave

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June 06, 2022, 12:31:14 AM
Merited by DaveF (1)
 #5

wonder if that would harm a private key printed on regular paper. I use Revla paper (thanks to DaveF) and I am sure that would not be affected by this method. makes me question any second hand coin now...

Would it matter what happens to the paper? Once the hologram is off you can always reprint it.

I mentioned it to someone else in a PM but:

Certain issues have been well known for 9 years
https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins/

Supposedly they (Casascius) fixed their holograms.
But with everyone else we have to hope they bought their holograms from a quality maker and not just the lowest cost one.

-Dave

I meant with reg paper would it destroy the paper or make the key unreadable

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June 06, 2022, 05:55:55 AM
Merited by ZipReg (1)
 #6

Are we poor again?

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June 06, 2022, 09:26:54 AM
 #7

Although the video is not related to BTC / crypto collectables everyone should keep this in the back of their head coins go person to person to person.
Some holograms are good others are...well....watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJtqvYDnkg

With no offense to any one particular maker, do we really know how good the holograms really are?

Hint....no we do not.

-Dave

Interesting and definitely concerning.
What is the liquid used in the video to help peel the holo without any damage?
I wanted to make a peel-a-Moonbits video for quite some time, and trying this method would be a good start.

Get educated about Bitcoin. Check out Andreas Antonopoulos on Youtube. An old but gold talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc744Z9IjhY

Daniel Schmachtenberger on The Meta-Crisis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kBoLVvoqVY&t=288s One of the most important talks about the current state of this planet. Go check it out.
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June 06, 2022, 10:59:45 AM
Merited by DaveF (1)
 #8

Its denatured alcohol

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June 06, 2022, 11:05:19 AM
Merited by NeuroticFish (2)
 #9

Are we poor again?

As I have mentioned a few times before, there has always been a risk with things like this.
My biggest fear has not actually been an attack like this but someone who went out and bought a bunch of coins and found a supplier that would make the same hologram that one of the big names makers that did not supply a list of addresses.

Interesting and definitely concerning.
What is the liquid used in the video to help peel the holo without any damage?
I wanted to make a peel-a-Moonbits video for quite some time, and trying this method would be a good start.

He mentions at about 2:50 in the video it's just denatured alcohol. Does not say if it is 95% or 99% or 99.5%
Would probably start with 95% and work my way up.

-Dave



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June 06, 2022, 02:18:15 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (2)
 #10

This is indeed something very critical, and among the top of my concerns when elaborating physical Bitcoin items.
You can read more about how these issues are addressed at Coldkey by checking this thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5145343

Many thanks Sat0shisGhost for making the chemical / solvent tests on Coldkeys and sharing your results with us Smiley
Chemical tests on Coldkeys : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5145343.msg51448024#msg51448024



About the hologram, the one in LPL's Youtube video is a generic one.
They are certainly not as elaborated as the Casascius hologram, despite it being exploited already :

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins/

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June 06, 2022, 02:40:29 PM
 #11


About the hologram, the one in LPL's Youtube video is a generic one.
They are certainly not as elaborated as the Casascius hologram, despite it being exploited already :

https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2013/08/13/defcon-hackers-crack-physical-bitcoin-casascius-coins/



I see that it says "virtually undetectable" and states "small deformation where the needle had stretched the sticker during insertion" I wish I could see pictures of this.


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June 06, 2022, 04:53:24 PM
 #12

wonder if that would harm a private key printed on regular paper.
I don't have a definite answer, but I have a feeling depending on the type of ink that's used on the paper in question, it could penetrate "some" of them [because of the ethanol part] and distort them to a very small extent [don't quote me on this one].

I see that it says "virtually undetectable" and states "small deformation where the needle had stretched the sticker during insertion" I wish I could see pictures of this.
I found what you were looking for in "another article":

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June 06, 2022, 05:15:59 PM
Merited by NeuroticFish (1), krogothmanhattan (1)
 #13

I meant with reg paper would it destroy the paper or make the key unreadable
That's easy to test. I printed on standard Xerox paper using an inkjet, poured 96% alcohol on it, poured some more, and rubbed it a bit with a tissue. Then I took this picture:
Image loading...
I didn't have a laserjet attached, but I expect it to be even tougher.

This is just one more reason for me not to buy collectibles: not your keys, ....... Don't get me wrong: I'd love it, but I don't dare.

Who's sending a Casascius to the LockPickingLaywer? Cheesy

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June 06, 2022, 06:00:01 PM
 #14

I meant with reg paper would it destroy the paper or make the key unreadable
That's easy to test. I printed on standard Xerox paper using an inkjet, poured 96% alcohol on it, poured some more, and rubbed it a bit with a tissue. Then I took this picture:
Image loading...
I didn't have a laserjet attached, but I expect it to be even tougher.

This is just one more reason for me not to buy collectibles: not your keys, ....... Don't get me wrong: I'd love it, but I don't dare.

Who's sending a Casascius to the LockPickingLaywer? Cheesy

this is why I always state everyone should make their own keys but there are some makers who flat out refuse to make DIY and demand you trust their keys


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June 07, 2022, 05:26:27 PM
Merited by yogg (3), krogothmanhattan (2)
 #15

I watched an interesting series of videos from the lockpickinglawyer and Stuff Made Here where the latter made an "unpickable" lock for the lawyer to try and crack.  It was an interesting series of videos between the two and showed a great collaboration of different skill sets.  Here's one of the videos.  I found it worth the watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2NY29iQdI&t=0s

You know what they say...  Locks keep honest people honest.  Same with tamper proof holograms.  That's why purchasing items from reputable people is important.  Nothing is unbeatable. 

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June 09, 2022, 07:45:09 AM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #16

Although the video is not related to BTC / crypto collectables everyone should keep this in the back of their head coins go person to person to person.
Some holograms are good others are...well....watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJtqvYDnkg

With no offense to any one particular maker, do we really know how good the holograms really are?

Hint....no we do not.

-Dave

I don't think holograms, or any other physical method, are particularly good at keeping something secure.

You need to trust the creator of the collectible, because they have access to the private key.

This is the easy part, because they have to build a reputation, and they don't want to lose it.

But when buying from third parties it then becomes way more difficult to trust, as they can indeed get the coins and put back the hologram, or tamper with whatever mechanism there is.

It's the same with gold and anything else really.

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June 09, 2022, 01:49:25 PM
Merited by krogothmanhattan (1)
 #17

Anyone who didn't get their holos from securityhologram does not have good ones.
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June 09, 2022, 06:25:34 PM
 #18

Anyone who didn't get their holos from securityhologram does not have good ones.

I think you should leave the video with the impression that security holograms are not "tamper proof" any more than a lock is not "pickable" so it doesn't matter where you buy them from...  Casascius addressed this long ago by lasering the edges of his holograms so that they could not be removed cleanly with this technique.  That was a great solution.  In my first round of minted seats I also had crazy security features (anybody ever peeled one of the originals with the security bump under the hologram?) that proved to be too time consuming and labor intensive for me to continue while offering what I felt was a bargain basement price on my work.  I imagine Casascius probably quickly tired of lasering his holograms onto coins as well, but it was a good solution that wouldn't matter where you bought the holograms from.

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nullama
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June 10, 2022, 01:04:18 AM
 #19

Anyone who didn't get their holos from securityhologram does not have good ones.

I think you should leave the video with the impression that security holograms are not "tamper proof" any more than a lock is not "pickable" so it doesn't matter where you buy them from...  Casascius addressed this long ago by lasering the edges of his holograms so that they could not be removed cleanly with this technique.  That was a great solution.  In my first round of minted seats I also had crazy security features (anybody ever peeled one of the originals with the security bump under the hologram?) that proved to be too time consuming and labor intensive for me to continue while offering what I felt was a bargain basement price on my work.  I imagine Casascius probably quickly tired of lasering his holograms onto coins as well, but it was a good solution that wouldn't matter where you bought the holograms from.

That's an interesting solution.

Would it be possible, at least in theory, to automate the Casascius process these days with a cheap home laser engraver and a camera, running some fancy computer vision algorithms?

This could even be done by the person who bought the collectible to make it more secure.

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2stout
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June 10, 2022, 04:29:05 AM
 #20

Anyone who didn't get their holos from securityhologram does not have good ones.

I think you should leave the video with the impression that security holograms are not "tamper proof" any more than a lock is not "pickable" so it doesn't matter where you buy them from...  Casascius addressed this long ago by lasering the edges of his holograms so that they could not be removed cleanly with this technique.  That was a great solution.  In my first round of minted seats I also had crazy security features (anybody ever peeled one of the originals with the security bump under the hologram?) that proved to be too time consuming and labor intensive for me to continue while offering what I felt was a bargain basement price on my work.  I imagine Casascius probably quickly tired of lasering his holograms onto coins as well, but it was a good solution that wouldn't matter where you bought the holograms from.

That's an interesting solution.

Would it be possible, at least in theory, to automate the Casascius process these days with a cheap home laser engraver and a camera, running some fancy computer vision algorithms?

This could even be done by the person who bought the collectible to make it more secure.

It could be but this would seem to at the least taint things, if not borderline bastardize them as you could have some holo's with and without the laser engraving but not done by the maker.
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