Introducing The Bitcoin Note: Physical Bitcoin that Looks and Feels Like Cash

[ccamrobertson]

Insert Quote
I really like this project, thanks for making it.

There's a weird feeling with this one though, on one hand it looks like a great item for a collection, being a limited edition. But on the other hand, the whole purpose of it is to become more mainstream and very common, so that a lot of people are trading it back and forth, which would lower the collector's value.

I guess the first edition might keep the value as a collector's item and next batches would be not limited...

Any plans decided now about the future of production of these bills?

Thank you -- we have to start somewhere and we believe collectable -> gifting -> mainstream is the right path. The first edition will get low serial numbers as at least one point of distinction. But yes, we would really like to do some much larger production runs of bills (ideally millions).

awesome - I would love to set up a group buy!

Great! Stay tuned for the order notification email and drop me a line when it comes through. I'm just cameron [at] offline [dot] cash

[LoyceV]

When you re-key the user key you are really sending from the first multisig to a new one.

As a payment instrument that you pass from person to person, on-chain transactions should be fairly minimal (unless you want to re-key the note).

If you're the last holder and you didn't re-key the note, it's probable that someone else also has a copy of the key (hence why we recommend re-keying when you receive a note).

You're contradicting yourself. It now sounds like it it has all the drawbacks of physical storage while it still requires an on-chain transaction. And after each on-chain transaction, the remaining value will be reduced (because of transaction fees).

[NeuroticFish]

It now sounds like it it has all the drawbacks of physical storage while it still requires an on-chain transaction. And after each on-chain transaction, the remaining value will be reduced (because of transaction fees).

From my understanding on-chain transaction will happen only when this notes are getting funded. Most probably only once.
My guess is that they plan to sell them unfunded, basically expecting the first owner fund it on-chain. Afterwards it can be passed on with the nominal value being contained there.

However, one big question remains: what will this "re-keying" mean.
I hoped it's something that doesn't involve re-creation of a new wallet (and new address), hence no new tx, but I don't know...

[Pmalek]

My guess is that they plan to sell them unfunded, basically expecting the first owner fund it on-chain.

Yeah, these Bitcoin notes won't be sold pre-funded. It's mentioned in the OP that they will write an encrypted private key on the paper and the user will write down the user key. After that, the note gets loaded.

Since OP didn't include any pictures and no one else shared any, I though this thread should have some, so people can see what is being discussed withoout having to leave the forum. Here are a few that can be found on the official website:

[nullama]

My guess is that they plan to sell them unfunded, basically expecting the first owner fund it on-chain.

Yeah, these Bitcoin notes won't be sold pre-funded. It's mentioned in the OP that they will write an encrypted private key on the paper and the user will write down the user key. After that, the note gets loaded.

Since OP didn't include any pictures and no one else shared any, I though this thread should have some, so people can see what is being discussed withoout having to leave the forum. Here are a few that can be found on the official website:
~snip~

Interesting. They look very similar to Australian bills:



I guess it's because they're polymer bank notes, and that technology was invented in Australia:

Modern polymer banknotes were first developed by the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA), Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) and The University of Melbourne

[ccamrobertson]

You're contradicting yourself. It now sounds like it it has all the drawbacks of physical storage while it still requires an on-chain transaction. And after each on-chain transaction, the remaining value will be reduced (because of transaction fees).

It depends on your trust model. If you receive a note fresh from a family member as a gift, you might not re-key. If you are going to spend the note right away, you probably won't re-key. If you plan to claim funds off the note by cutting it soon you might not re-key. There are a bunch of scenarios where you may opt not to re-key and just spend like cash. We suspect gifting from a trusted party is going to be one of the most common cases near term, hence folks won't be re-keying frequently.

Most physical storage similar to this can't be re-keyed at all. Your options are, claim right away or trust the person who gave it to you (into perpetuity or until you will claim).

However, one big question remains: what will this "re-keying" mean.
I hoped it's something that doesn't involve re-creation of a new wallet (and new address), hence no new tx, but I don't know...

It does require sending funds to a new multisig -- we are recommending/defaulting to really low fees since given the notes are long lived it doesn't make sense that bills need to be loaded within a few blocks.

[dkbit98]

We don't have pricing ready just yet, but think somewhere around a set of Opendimes. Limited production runs right now mean we don't get great volume discounts, but these notes will be low serial number (if that matters).

That would be great to see and anything less than $100 is acceptable for this in my opinion, and this could work almost like hardware paper wallet with NFC support.
One thing I would like to see is option to somehow have anonymous purchase and shipping to PO boxes, or maybe even local purchase.

Thanks! The apps will implicitly authenticate the notes with us (although, of course, that's trusting us) and we're investigating making them capable of auditing the multisig independently from us. In either case we hope that open sourcing the apps means that folks have an alternative means of verifying the multisig and how the apps function if so desired.

There are other bitcoin wallets that support NFC, so it would be cool if you could support third party wallets that have multisig.

[arabspaceship123]

I'm in dual minds. It isn't original but it's a nice idea keeping bitcoin notes. They look nice but trusting strangers isn't easy. Who's comfortable believing cryptocurrency coins and notes makers ?

[ccamrobertson]

That would be great to see and anything less than $100 is acceptable for this in my opinion, and this could work almost like hardware paper wallet with NFC support.
One thing I would like to see is option to somehow have anonymous purchase and shipping to PO boxes, or maybe even local purchase.

We will very likely never make a larger note unless we change the security model; but we very much do want to make smaller notes over time.

I'm in dual minds. It isn't original but it's a nice idea keeping bitcoin notes. They look nice but trusting strangers isn't easy. Who's comfortable believing cryptocurrency coins and notes makers ?

Our hope is that our model gives you a different trust model than previous notes where the private key could note be rotated.

[sdp]

Please comment on my Cheap Notes concept.  I think you could integrate some ideas.  I don't think 100 µBTC or 1 mBTC bills justify a NFC chip but the two redeem periods are a concept which I think is good.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5402081.0

The user still has to trust the issuer, but the same is true about centralized exchanges....

[cygan]

i became aware of the new Bitcoin notes yesterday and today i created an own thread in the collectors section (after i couldn't find this thread in the search function)
find the design and the concept with nfc and multisig very interesting and would like to add this to my big collection after the Polymerbit notes

have today also put me on the waiting list
will there also be other editions or it remains with these 4 motifs?

[krogothmanhattan]

  Love the idea and the designs....You should also announce in the collectables section here...plenty of people would buy once available.

  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=217.0

 

[slavidivanov]

Okay, but what happens if you lost the note?

[Kakmakr]

Something like this will certainly draw the attention of governments, because it closely resemble the "printing" of a currency. Now on the other hand, if you designed it more to resemble a "Gift card" .....it will be more acceptable to governments.

I know the ultimate goal with true Crypto enthusiast like us, is to use Bitcoin as a "Currency" and not as a "Commodity" .....but I think this is going to create a stir.

The laws and regulations in different countries differ, so I presume the target market for this is countries where Bitcoin are allowed as "Legal tender" ......and in countries where it is not allowed ===> Collectables? (Offline Cash is a bit controversial...right?)

[LoyceV]

Okay, but what happens if you lost the note?

The same as any other physical item you lose: it's gone, and someone else may find it.

Something like this will certainly draw the attention of governments, because it closely resemble the "printing" of a currency. Now on the other hand, if you designed it more to resemble a "Gift card" .....it will be more acceptable to governments.

It's just barter. I can exchange my TV for your bicycle. Or for a drawing you made, for something you printed, or for some magic internet money Satoshi created. Governments can't stop you, they'll just tax you.

[ccamrobertson]

We've just updated our homepage with an FAQ and more details on the security model of the Bitcoin Note and I thought it would be worth adding here:

• Security: https://offline.cash/pages/bitcoin-note-security-overview
• FAQ: https://offline.cash/pages/faq

Any feedback is appreciated, notably if anything is confusing/unclear.

[dkbit98]

Any feedback is appreciated, notably if anything is confusing/unclear.

I see that currently we can only reserve a spot for Bitcoin Notes, but when can we expect to see them available for purchasing and delivery?
If I remember correctly I reserved my spot back in June when you first created this topic but I didn't receive any notification yet.

A Bitcoin Note can be authenticated by scanning it via NFC. Our server will authenticate the note using keys embedded in the NFC chip.

I could see potential problem with this statement from your website.
What would happen if someone exploits your server and make fake authentication of Bitcoin Note?

[MoparMiningLLC]

got my email today and I have a few questions.


The site states clearly the notes are sold unloaded and that we fund them after we receive them and that the price does not include any bitcoin.

The site also says cost is $49 per set for seral number 00101 and higher - $499 per set for serial numbers under 00100.



Now my question is this, if the notes are sold unloaded and we have to fund them upon receipt, then what is the "+.017 BTC" for?

[hZti]

I think it is a very good idea that you can load your own personal private key to the note. The problem I was thinking of is that the NFC chip can be defective after some time. Since many people would use this kind of bill as cold storage, is there a solution to still get the funds if the NFC chip is defective?
Also if you receive such a bill you can never know if the NFC chip was scanned by the previous owner and he can simply withdraw the money after you receive the bill.

[ccamrobertson]

I could see potential problem with this statement from your website.
What would happen if someone exploits your server and make fake authentication of Bitcoin Note?

Good question -- in this case the exploiter can only access the notes they have in their physical possession. So they would be able to claim the funds off a note without cutting it, but that's about it. The key material that the server holds never lets you claim funds alone -- you always need the user key which is stored on the note.

Now my question is this, if the notes are sold unloaded and we have to fund them upon receipt, then what is the "+.017 BTC" for?

This is only to reinforce that you need 0.018 BTC + some for mining fees (the 0.017 BTC was a typo we missed before going live) in order to load the note. The payment to us is only $49 or $499 per pack plus S&H and taxes if domestic and in certain states. If you continue through checkout you will see that only the $49 plus these other fees is charged.

The problem I was thinking of is that the NFC chip can be defective after some time. Since many people would use this kind of bill as cold storage, is there a solution to still get the funds if the NFC chip is defective?
Also if you receive such a bill you can never know if the NFC chip was scanned by the previous owner and he can simply withdraw the money after you receive the bill.

In theory you could scan the note using another app (our open source app won't do this) to capture the user key as a backup. If you receive a note from an untrusted or unknown party and you want to keep it for a while (e.g. not cut and claim or spend like cash), then you should go through a re-key procedure so you are the only holder of the user private key.