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Author Topic: Best way to store ledger nano 24 words seed phrase.  (Read 215 times)
Calm N Patience (OP)
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June 16, 2022, 01:03:34 PM
 #1

Hi all,

I would like to share how I store my ledger nano 24 words seed phrase. Please let me know if there is any flaw in my method. Also please share your ways of keeping your 24 words safe so everyone can gain some knowledge on keeping crypto safe.

I wrote them on a microsoft word on my laptop and put the microsoft word in three encrypted USB sticks. Then I keep three USB sticks in three separate locations. In a safe, car, and somewhere in my house. Even if someone has the encrypted USB stick they still won't be able to open it as it's password protected.

The only thing that worried me a bit is when writing on the microsoft word on my laptop. Will the laptop memorizes the microsoft word and keep it somewhere in my laptop that I don't know of? Thanks, guys.
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June 16, 2022, 01:13:16 PM
 #2

My concern would be how you're storing your password once you've put these 3 USB sticks somewhere. If you're not going to access them for a while, I don't think you'll do well relying on memory.

You might've been better off using notepad for this since it won't have anything that remembers the words you typed for its dictionary. It is unlikely anything detectable has been saved and if you use word a lot it might have already relearnt some of those words enough times and removed their original meaning.

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June 16, 2022, 01:42:36 PM
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My concern would be how you're storing your password once you've put these 3 USB sticks somewhere. If you're not going to access them for a while, I don't think you'll do well relying on memory.

You might've been better off using notepad for this since it won't have anything that remembers the words you typed for its dictionary. It is unlikely anything detectable has been saved and if you use word a lot it might have already relearnt some of those words enough times and removed their original meaning.

I've memorized the password. it's some words that I won't forget.

Notepad from microsoft?
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June 16, 2022, 02:02:28 PM
 #4

I've memorized the password. it's some words that I won't forget.
Really? Not even if you have an accident, severe head trauma, or suffer from memory loss?  Wink

Notepad from microsoft?
Yes, that's the one.


The seed should be written down on paper and stored in different geographical regions. Make sure they are protected from humidity, water, and fire. Other options include engraving the words in stainless steel or creating your own method such as Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers. Digital mediums are less safe, especially clouds and online platforms. Your seed shouldn't be on a computer that has an active internet connection for maximum security. Only hardware wallets have the means to protect you from some online threats.    

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June 16, 2022, 03:37:36 PM
 #5

I wrote them on a microsoft word on my laptop and put the microsoft word in three encrypted USB sticks. Then I keep three USB sticks in three separate locations. In a safe, car, and somewhere in my house. Even if someone has the encrypted USB stick they still won't be able to open it as it's password protected.
Why using bug filled hackable microsoft word file format, when you can simply use simple text file?!
I would personally never use any digital files for storing seed words, even if they are encrypted, because I don't want to leave any traces behind.
On top of that, if password is not strong it can easily be hacked or you can forget it, if you didn't write it on some paper or in password managers.
Human brain and memory is a very fragile thing and I would not trust it as a long term storage space.

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June 16, 2022, 04:20:46 PM
 #6

I've memorized the password. it's some words that I won't forget.

I wouldn't trust this. I memorised one of my mnemonics and spent about a year trying to recite past the 4th word in my head - I had it written down but wanted to see if I could remember it and I did eventually but it's not the safest way to go about things (the paper was fairly far away and the pandemic had just started when I initially misremembered it).

Notepad from microsoft?

Yeah. The chance your computer memorised that is tiny and if you don't use Microsoft word often, your autosave file could be saved for a while (you might want to Google your version of word and see if it stores temporary files you could delete - although even if you do that your drive might not be completely clear of them in a worst case scenario). Realistically the threat would be reduced if you saved the blank document to your USB stick before adding the mnemonic.

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June 16, 2022, 04:31:38 PM
 #7

Please let me know if there is any flaw in my method.

1. You have probably made the MS word file on your every day Windows. If you had a keylogger malware, somebody else has also received those words already (and maybe he knows or maybe not yet).
2. You have probably made the MS word file on your computer first. Even if you moved/removed it, the file is not completely obliterated and somebody can recover it from your HDD.
3. Relying on your memory for the encryption password is not advised. What if you get a head injury and you forget the password?
4. USB sticks can "die" for various odd reasons. While I know it's convenient, it's not the safest nor a recommended storage for the seed phrase.
5. Your method is overcomplicated. Again, what if you get an injury and no longer remember? What you do then? You may even reuse the sticks for some other data since "wtf was on it anyway?"

So while USB is convenient as an "easy backup at hand", it's good only if you do have a better backup somewhere. And the way you've stored the backup is.. bad.

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June 16, 2022, 06:28:00 PM
 #8

Really? Not even if you have an accident, severe head trauma, or suffer from memory loss?  Wink
Or even aging, depending on how long you plan on keeping your coins in cold storage.  Believe me, memory doesn't get better with age--and you do make a good point about things that can go horribly wrong.  I'd never rely on a human brain in lieu of something like a metal plate with a seed phrase stamped or engraved onto it.

Has anyone read Bitcoin Billionaires by Ben Mezrich?  It's a great read, and it describes in detail how the Winklevoss twins stored the private keys to their first big bitcoin purchase.  It involved laptops with wifi adapters removed, the subsequent smashing of the laptops with a sledgehammer, and the twins traveling to several banks spread across the US to put separate pieces of the keys into safety deposit boxes.  They were kind of maniacal about the security of their bitcoin, and I'd say they were smart about it too. 

That doesn't help the rest of us who don't have the resources to do all of the things the twins did, though.  I'd stick with my suggestion above and use something metal to stamp/etch/engrave whatever you have for a private key on.  At the very least write it down on paper and keep that paper secure.

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June 16, 2022, 06:40:51 PM
 #9

Also please share your ways of keeping your 24 words safe so everyone can gain some knowledge on keeping crypto safe.
For my last backup, I split them into multiple parts/sections and did what @Pmalek mentioned earlier [engraved them on stainless steel washers]... Instead of using numbers for the correct order, I used "dots" to represent each part/section + the order of the words for each of those parts. Besides making multiple copies for each part and placing them in various locations, I also made a couple of sets of various combinations:

  • 2 x [1st and 3rd part] and 2 x [2nd and 4th part]
  • 2 x [1st and 4th part] and 2 x [2nd and 3rd part]

You might think the latter is overkill, but I haven't gone a full year without losing at least one of my backups!

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June 17, 2022, 07:46:19 AM
 #10

I've memorized the password. it's some words that I won't forget.
Really? Not even if you have an accident, severe head trauma, or suffer from memory loss?  Wink
If I suffer from memory loss the I won't be able to remember where I keep the seeds either.

Notepad from microsoft?
Yes, that's the one.


The seed should be written down on paper and stored in different geographical regions. Make sure they are protected from humidity, water, and fire. Other options include engraving the words in stainless steel or creating your own method such as Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers. Digital mediums are less safe, especially clouds and online platforms. Your seed shouldn't be on a computer that has an active internet connection for maximum security. Only hardware wallets have the means to protect you from some online threats.    
If I disable wifi on my laptop and then write the 24 words on a microsoft notepad then transfer it to usb stick will that safe?
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June 17, 2022, 07:56:55 AM
 #11

If I disable wifi on my laptop and then write the 24 words on a microsoft notepad then transfer it to usb stick will that safe?
No, because you are going to enable it straight after again. Those secrets can be saved in your memory or some temp files and people who know where to look might be able to find the seed. Your laptop might be infected. Did you understand the point we were trying to make about using digital ways to store the seed? DON'T DO IT!  What's wrong with a pen and paper? Write it down on multiple pieces of paper and store them properly.

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June 17, 2022, 07:57:12 AM
Last edit: June 17, 2022, 12:37:43 PM by Mr. Big
 #12

I've memorized the password. it's some words that I won't forget.

I wouldn't trust this. I memorised one of my mnemonics and spent about a year trying to recite past the 4th word in my head - I had it written down but wanted to see if I could remember it and I did eventually but it's not the safest way to go about things (the paper was fairly far away and the pandemic had just started when I initially misremembered it).

Notepad from microsoft?

Yeah. The chance your computer memorised that is tiny and if you don't use Microsoft word often, your autosave file could be saved for a while (you might want to Google your version of word and see if it stores temporary files you could delete - although even if you do that your drive might not be completely clear of them in a worst case scenario). Realistically the threat would be reduced if you saved the blank document to your USB stick before adding the mnemonic.

You mean a blank microsoft word save to usb stick first, then open it from usb stick through computer and add the seed phrase?



Quote from: NeuroticFish link=topic=5402851.msg60375899#msg6pieces99 date=1655397098
Please let me know if there is any flaw in my method.

1. You have probably made the MS word file on your every day Windows. If you had a keylogger malware, somebody else has also received those words already (and maybe he knows or maybe not yet).
2. You have probably made the MS word file on your computer first. Even if you moved/removed it, the file is not completely obliterated and somebody can recover it from your HDD.
3. Relying on your memory for the encryption password is not advised. What if you get a head injury and you forget the password?
4. USB sticks can "die" for various odd reasons. While I know it's convenient, it's not the safest nor a recommended storage for the seed phrase.
5. Your method is overcomplicated. Again, what if you get an injury and no longer remember? What you do then? You may even reuse the sticks for some other data since "wtf was on it anyway?"

So while USB is convenient as an "easy backup at hand", it's good only if you do have a better backup somewhere. And the way you've stored the backup is.. bad.

So the best way is to write on paper or engrave them on metal pieces and keep them somewhere safe. If I get a head injury and I forget the password, if that happens I might forget where I keep them too. Even if I write them on paper or metal pieces you still need to remember where you keep them. It's the same memory you need either to remember the password or where you keep them.



Also please share your ways of keeping your 24 words safe so everyone can gain some knowledge on keeping crypto safe.
For my last backup, I split them into multiple parts/sections and did what @Pmalek mentioned earlier [engraved them on stainless steel washers]... Instead of using numbers for the correct order, I used "dots" to represent each part/section + the order of the words for each of those parts. Besides making multiple copies for each part and placing them in various locations, I also made a couple of sets of various combinations:

  • 2 x [1st and 3rd part] and 2 x [2nd and 4th part]
  • 2 x [1st and 4th part] and 2 x [2nd and 3rd part]

You might think the latter is overkill, but I haven't gone a full year without losing at least one of my backups!
That seems might be the safest option.  👍
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June 17, 2022, 08:21:34 AM
 #13

So the best way is to write on paper or engrave them on metal pieces and keep them somewhere safe. If I get a head injury and I forget the password, if that happens I might forget where I keep them too. Even if I write them on paper or metal pieces you still need to remember where you keep them. It's the same memory you need either to remember the password or where you keep them.

If you keep it simple, I'd expect that you have better chances that somebody from your family can find those seed words and make use of that money.

Of course, I know that this makes more vulnerable to thieves. I mean that I've seen even ideas to engrave onto steel and bury in the backyard, but then it will be lost for your family.
You have to find a good balance, one that suits you best. The more complicated you make it, the more the chances you'll lose those coins. Not now, but maybe in 20 years. This is how I see it.

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June 17, 2022, 08:25:43 AM
Merited by pooya87 (2), fillippone (2), Pmalek (1)
 #14

Hi all,

I would like to share how I store my ledger nano 24 words seed phrase. Please let me know if there is any flaw in my method. Also please share your ways of keeping your 24 words safe so everyone can gain some knowledge on keeping crypto safe.
Your method of using microsoft word file + USB stick is very unreliable and insecure because devices connected to the internet are at high risk of being infected with viruses. It is better to use offline storage methods seed phrase. Which method it will be, on paper, on metall or on something else, is up to you to choose.
 
I wrote them on a microsoft word on my laptop and put the microsoft word in three encrypted USB sticks. Then I keep three USB sticks in three separate locations. In a safe, car, and somewhere in my house. Even if someone has the encrypted USB stick they still won't be able to open it as it's password protected.
You forget that USB sticks can fail prematurely, so it not the best for long-term storage.

"In a safe" is the first thing that will catch the attention of a thief and besides, there are a lot of videos on YouTube showing how easy and fast it is to open.
"Cars" are often stolen and your USB sticks may leave with it.
"Somewhere in my house"- at first glance, this is the best option of these three, depending on the specific storage location and media used.

In general, there is no universal solution and you need to look at the tasks to be solved based on your capabilities.

I wouldn't be so sure about password protection, because it can be guessed or cracked, albeit with a small probability.

The only thing that worried me a bit is when writing on the microsoft word on my laptop. Will the laptop memorizes the microsoft word and keep it somewhere in my laptop that I don't know of? Thanks, guys.
It is possible and possible that you may have already compromised your seed phrase, so it would be better if you write down the info without using microsoft word and laptop.
 
I recommend that you search this forum for information on various ways to store seed phrase. This has been discussed many times and will be useful to you.

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June 17, 2022, 08:30:55 AM
Last edit: June 17, 2022, 12:39:49 PM by Mr. Big
 #15

If I disable wifi on my laptop and then write the 24 words on a microsoft notepad then transfer it to usb stick will that safe?
No, because you are going to enable it straight after again. Those secrets can be saved in your memory or some temp files and people who know where to look might be able to find the seed. Your laptop might be infected. Did you understand the point we were trying to make about using digital ways to store the seed? DON'T DO IT!  What's wrong with a pen and paper? Write it down on multiple pieces of paper and store them properly.

Alright then. It seems that the safest way to keep them safe is to write down on paper or engrave them on metal pieces and keep them in multiple places. 👍



So the best way is to write on paper or engrave them on metal pieces and keep them somewhere safe. If I get a head injury and I forget the password, if that happens I might forget where I keep them too. Even if I write them on paper or metal pieces you still need to remember where you keep them. It's the same memory you need either to remember the password or where you keep them.

If you keep it simple, I'd expect that you have better chances that somebody from your family can find those seed words and make use of that money.

Of course, I know that this makes more vulnerable to thieves. I mean that I've seen even ideas to engrave onto steel and bury in the backyard, but then it will be lost for your family.
You have to find a good balance, one that suits you best. The more complicated you make it, the more the chances you'll lose those coins. Not now, but maybe in 20 years. This is how I see it.
It's better to keep some in the cold wallet and some in different exchanges. Don't keep all in one place that might reduce the risk of losing them all.



Hi all,

I would like to share how I store my ledger nano 24 words seed phrase. Please let me know if there is any flaw in my method. Also please share your ways of keeping your 24 words safe so everyone can gain some knowledge on keeping crypto safe.
Your method of using microsoft word file + USB stick is very unreliable and insecure because devices connected to the internet are at high risk of being infected with viruses. It is better to use offline storage methods seed phrase. Which method it will be, on paper, on metall or on something else, is up to you to choose.
 
I wrote them on a microsoft word on my laptop and put the microsoft word in three encrypted USB sticks. Then I keep three USB sticks in three separate locations. In a safe, car, and somewhere in my house. Even if someone has the encrypted USB stick they still won't be able to open it as it's password protected.
You forget that USB sticks can fail prematurely, so it not the best for long-term storage.

"In a safe" is the first thing that will catch the attention of a thief and besides, there are a lot of videos on YouTube showing how easy and fast it is to open.
"Cars" are often stolen and your USB sticks may leave with it.
"Somewhere in my house"- at first glance, this is the best option of these three, depending on the specific storage location and media used.

In general, there is no universal solution and you need to look at the tasks to be solved based on your capabilities.

I wouldn't be so sure about password protection, because it can be guessed or cracked, albeit with a small probability.

The only thing that worried me a bit is when writing on the microsoft word on my laptop. Will the laptop memorizes the microsoft word and keep it somewhere in my laptop that I don't know of? Thanks, guys.
It is possible and possible that you may have already compromised your seed phrase, so it would be better if you write down the info without using microsoft word and laptop.
 
I recommend that you search this forum for information on various ways to store seed phrase. This has been discussed many times and will be useful to you.

Thanks for all the inputs. Now I can see the flaws on the method that I'm using. Will check on other discussions on this topic on this forum.
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June 17, 2022, 08:52:45 AM
 #16

It's better to keep some in the cold wallet and some in different exchanges. Don't keep all in one place that might reduce the risk of losing them all.
Don't keep any of your coins on crypto exchanges. Use the exchanges for what they were intended - the exchange of cryptocurrencies. After that, withdraw your funds to a wallet whose keys only you control. You don't control what happens to a centralized exchange. You don't even have a wallet there, you have an account. The account is yours, but the wallets are theirs. An exchange can go bankrupt, be hacked, or exit scam. They can freeze your coins for any reasons such as the suspicion of illegal activities, change in regulatory framework, loss of trading licenses for your country, etc. The end result is a temporary or permanent loss of coins depending on what exactly happened.

Cold storage, hardware wallets, even software wallets... everything is better than storing crypto on an exchange.   

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June 17, 2022, 10:45:58 AM
 #17

It's better to keep some in the cold wallet and some in different exchanges. Don't keep all in one place that might reduce the risk of losing them all.

The exchanges are usually unadvised, since they're the ones that can fall the worse. They're honeypots for hackers, they're are businesses that may go bankrupt, or because some changes in the legislation or whatever they can deny your access to your money.

But as long as you have your funds split, as long as the exchanges don't keep for you lifechanging amounts, they can also be a convenient option.

Probably the bigger the funds, the more copies and splits may be needed. And in that case keep in mind that you should not brag about your wealth, since the 5$ wrench can be more effective than any hacking tool.

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June 17, 2022, 11:15:42 AM
 #18

Stay away from Windows and all systems connected to the Internet if you want to significantly reduce the possibility of your computer getting hacked.

I wrote about how to backup your wallet seed tools
    Bitcoin Seed Backup Tools[/url] and this is a detailed review by Jameson Lopp who tested more than 30 devices against a 2000 Fahrenheit flame for 10 minutes, 12 hours in a bucket acids. results  https://jlopp.github.io/metal-bitcoin-storage-reviews/


    Results:

  • Simplicity is always the best: the more moving parts of the device, the worse in some tests.
  • 304 Stainless Steel is the best.
  • Most devices pass the resistance test but are bad in temperature and wear, so try to reduce the number of moving parts.
  • Devices that can withstand high temperatures are often bad.
[/list]

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June 20, 2022, 11:47:03 PM
 #19

No one recommended a better storage option?
I'm using safepal cypher metal to store my seed phrase and that's more than enough secured I think as you can lock the metal box, box won't melt down in fire and also not possible to get destroyed by anything else. If someone is investing a good amount, why wouldn’t they spend less than $100 to secure the seed? I think this one is one of best methods to secure the seed.

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onecall123
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June 21, 2022, 04:26:08 AM
 #20

There seems to be a lot of seriousness around right now. Most of us recommend the Ledger Nano S as a long-term storage device. You don't need to worry about going with another option, and the extra bucks are actually worth it. You should get a better one if you don't have one of these. In light of the amount of storage you have, it's a small investment. 

How should I store or where should I store it? Definitely avoid to use microsoft word or any Internet-connected systems. With just a tap on the side button, you can double-check and confirm every transaction by connecting to any computer (USB). But, How long can we avoid such internet connections?

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