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Author Topic: why can't bitcoin be based on something that has value?  (Read 1916 times)
tadamichi
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July 01, 2022, 09:27:08 AM
 #81

Quote from: tadamichi
You open up an interesting point larry, it’s hard to even say if Bitcoin is physical or not.
it could be but it's not right now. someone would had to invent a physical bitcoin. but that's alot harder to do than just inventing some "bitcoin bills" as you refer to below.
It can’t be invented physically in that sense, but my question is, how do you classify information?

When you’re using a bill, you’re also using it to transfer some kind of information. You’re giving its ownership to someone else and they now can spend the amount on the bill themselves too, by giving it’s ownership to someone else. Something physical is used to transfer that information(the bill), but like you already said below, this form of transferring information has drawbacks.

Now you have the option to use something like Bitcoin to transfer the same kind of information, but in a different form. And the advantage here is that it’s way more secure, efficient, verifiable and trustless to transfer this kind of information.

Isnt there a point to be made about that using physical things(in the classical sense) to transfer information has its boundaries and we’re seeing the consequences of it?

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Then there’s people who are developing Bitcoin bills for example, similar to fiat bills, which kinda gives you an physical object that you can pass around for trade, with the same potential risk as traditional bills.
well if those "bitcoin bills" are backed by some centralized 3rd party then they are not really true bitcoin. that's the problem. that's why they have the same "potential risk as traditional bills" i.e., being backed up by nothing, the company stops redeeming your bitcoin IOUs
There was ways to make them work more like a paper wallet, and used multisig in a way that you don’t have to trust manufacturer. They really hold the key on the bill. And are verifiable by anyone etc.

Anyways this wasn’t the point of my discussion, i just wanted to highlight that information can be stored in many different physical ways. And that using something like Bitcoin as the basis for this can actually prevent the problems we had in the past, with bills for example. Because the information inside the network can’t easily be faked like that, is open to anyone and is much more secured than other systems.

What value would a system have to you personally where information can’t easily be faked, flows without someone in control, is secure, verifiable, censorship resitant and so on(we know what Bitcoin offers), and this system stores the information about your wealth?

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larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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July 01, 2022, 10:24:30 PM
 #82


It can’t be invented physically in that sense, but my question is, how do you classify information?
Information is just that: information. If two people know the same information then either one of them can use that information.


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When you’re using a bill, you’re also using it to transfer some kind of information.
Well, you're transferring physical ownership of the bill itself. The information on the bill is just there to try and stop counterfeiting and prove the bill is legitimately produced. But everyone can see that information. Just because they can see the information on the bill doesn't mean they own the bill though.

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You’re giving its ownership to someone else and they now can spend the amount on the bill themselves too, by giving it’s ownership to someone else.
Right.

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Something physical is used to transfer that information(the bill), but like you already said below, this form of transferring information has drawbacks.
Well, the bill is not information it is more of a physical object that has some public information on it. Nothing is hidden. That's why it is vulnerable to counterfeiting. Not only that but it has another problem too which is that its supply is not fixed and government can just print more and more of them thus devaluing the printed bills in existence.

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Now you have the option to use something like Bitcoin to transfer the same kind of information, but in a different form.
I don't want a different form. I want a physical form. Like the opendime but non-electronic. As I've pointed out before.

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And the advantage here is that it’s way more secure, efficient, verifiable and trustless to transfer this kind of information.
I know about all of that which is why I like to having bitcoin in physical form. Rather than using fiat which has problems I discussed above like runaway inflation.

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Isnt there a point to be made about that using physical things(in the classical sense) to transfer information has its boundaries and we’re seeing the consequences of it?
To be able to transfer bitcoin in physical form, no one can know the private key. But it has to be part of the physical object. There can't be any third parties.

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There was ways to make them work more like a paper wallet, and used multisig in a way that you don’t have to trust manufacturer. They really hold the key on the bill. And are verifiable by anyone etc.
I'm not sure about that. Because we can't be relying upon a 3rd party for signing.

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Anyways this wasn’t the point of my discussion, i just wanted to highlight that information can be stored in many different physical ways. And that using something like Bitcoin as the basis for this can actually prevent the problems we had in the past, with bills for example. Because the information inside the network can’t easily be faked like that, is open to anyone and is much more secured than other systems.
I don't have any problem with that.

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What value would a system have to you personally where information can’t easily be faked, flows without someone in control, is secure, verifiable, censorship resitant and so on(we know what Bitcoin offers), and this system stores the information about your wealth?


It would have alot of value. But it would even have more value to me if it could be presented in physical form also. that would remove alot of friction such as having to do "on-chain" transfers. Instead I could just pay for coffee using some micro-bitcoin coins. Then the government wouldn't need to know about it.
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July 01, 2022, 10:49:27 PM
 #83

Basically it doesn't need to be backed by anything. In fact, the properties that Bitcoin was built with, are more than enough to keep it's value.
Take these examples:
Divisibility - in fact, there are no Bitcoins. There are sats. The code in Bitcoin core and all the math is made up with sats (I think I am accurate on this statement, correct me if I'm not). So you can have millions of small parts of a Bitcoin and transfer each of those parts to another owner!
Portability - Bitcoin cana be sent easily at minimal costs all over the world, even if there is no internet!
Scarcity - There is fixed supply. This is a major property. No debase can happen as it happens with fiat currencies. Take the example of Venezuela that they have been kinda rebranding their currency name and removing zeros by law.
Durability - Theoretically, Bitcoin can last forever. It won't oxidise, it won't suffer from erosion, it can't be destroyed chemically. The only thing that could hipthetically happen is all 21M coins be "lost" by means of losing all PKs of all addresses containing Bitcoin. What are the odds?
Sovereignty - this is another major difference. Among other things, this means that Bitcoin is the only thing that cannot be stolen from you in extreme scenarios. You can literaly take your Bitcoin to your grave and no one can take it from you by any means. Just memorize your PKs, yes it's hard but not impossible. As for fiat, things are quite different as most fiat in circulation are numbers in computers that can be controlled by banks, governments and can be taken from you even if you don't reveal your account password/pin/whatever.

These examples and a few others makes Bitcoin no need for any backup material to grant value!

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July 02, 2022, 02:01:08 AM
 #84

Value is subjective, nothing has true and inherent value.

Bitcoin could be pegged to a fiat currency like USD like as stablecoin are. But USD does not have inherent value. You could tie a crypto currency to the gold standard, the gold's value is only attributable to what a consumer is willing to freely pay for it. Does the gold have inherent value? Or is the value attached to whatever someone will pay for it? Ask a man stranded on an island whether he'd rather have a pound of pure gold or a few matches. Gold is "worth" more than the matches on the market, but the value is subjective.

Perhaps your question is suggesting why Bitcoin isn't based on something tangible. There isn't an answer for that. You can only make the comparison to other currencies that aren't based on anything tangible either. What is USD based on?

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July 03, 2022, 05:34:16 AM
 #85

snip
Why do you feel the need to reply this long to someone who doesn't even get what "digital" means. I mean the idea that people would want something, and would get it digitally, is a thing that has been around for decades and you are talking with someone who thinks there needs to be a tangible thing to make it valuable and otherwise it shouldn't be a thing.

Even bitcoin could be physical for Christ sake, you could print it, and then spend it anywhere that accepts it, and that would be physical and that is still not the point. Bitcoin is valued because we said so, and that's it, that's all there is to it, nothing more is required about this.

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July 03, 2022, 07:41:34 PM
 #86

I don't know much but using logic I think Bitcoin can't have any backing like other stocks because by having backing it would only have that base and that base could be controlled by a government or multiple banks and I think if something like that happens it could take control of bitcoin, instead if bitcoin is given value by negotiations and because millionaire movements caused by whales are generated, it is more valuable than any backup that can be stolen by someone, for example if bitcoin will be backed by 100 tons of gold and if those tons are stolen? How could bitcoin be? worthless.

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July 03, 2022, 07:57:21 PM
 #87

Value is subjective, nothing has true and inherent value.

Actually it all comes from a Trust and agreement.. It also comes from paper money or coins that we often use, even gold can be valuable because it also comes from the agreement that it has value. The only distinguishing element is its stability and instability, paper money, gold, get government or country support. So bitcoin or any other crypto today has value because of trust and agreement, no much country support. If it wasn't there then it would be of no value. All countries are only worried about instability because it has the potential to be detrimental. IMO

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July 03, 2022, 08:01:49 PM
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 #88

Take this as a good criticism, I honestly think you should do more in finding knowledge about Bitcoin, from your post OP you don’t know the history of Bitcoin or even worse you don’t have an idea how it even works, the total amount of Bitcoin available to the world is 21 million, this was what the widely accepted creator of bitcoin Satoshi nakamoto created, and yes like most prices of goods and services it can be affected by demand and supply, it’s this simple.

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darkv0rt3x
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July 03, 2022, 08:16:09 PM
 #89

I would even say more. It's more likely that something will be pegged to Bitcoin in the future as money was pegged to gold during the gold standard than Bitcoin have anything to be pegged to. As I already said before and explained, Bitcoin is the only and best sound money known to man kind! There's not much more to say about it!

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July 03, 2022, 08:24:34 PM
 #90

i dont understand why bitcoin has to be just base on people perceive value of it. and for someone to just artrarily fix the supply of them at 21 million doesn't make any sense. it should be able to contract and expand the # of bitcoins in existence. but because bitcoin is design very simplistically it is kind of like monopoly money. not backed up by anything.


Quote from: death_wish
It's a common myth.  Bitcoin’s price is not directly caused by subjective perceptions:  It is a result of the market, based on supply and demand.  Perceptions are one factor in the “demand” side of that.  There are other factors to demand; and perceptions do not alter supply.

Ultimately, Bitcoin’s fundamental value derives from its facilitation of productive economic activity, which would be costlier, infeasible, or impossible without Bitcoin.  I know that I have done productive non-Bitcoin, non-market business with Bitcoin, which I could not have done without Bitcoin.  That’s not extraordinary:  It is being an ordinary Bitcoiner who uses Bitcoin as money, rather than a purely speculative buyer who just wants “number go up”.  The more such people they are, the higher the organic, non-speculative demand for BTC.
i'm not saying bitcoin doesn't do that. but bitcoin has weaknesses. you can't deny that. the main weakness being that it is not backed up by something like gold. gold could then be used to measure the value of bitcoin. and gold has real world use. people wear it. it gets used in all kinds of electronics. bitcoin doesn't get used anywhere for any purpose. it's just imaginary.


Quote
This discussion of economics is far off-topic for the development forum.  I feel obliged to answer something that is more usually nocoiner FUD or newbie confusion.  If you have further questions about this, I refer you to Bitcoin Discussion or Economics.
ok well, the topic belongs somewhere.
Okay if we are talking about backings of various currencies or assets which currency do you think has a backing? All the fiats around the world have no backing except for the promise that the government is giving you and in situation such as wars etc. This promise is worth nothing at all. Talking about other asset such as gold as well all the demand it has is merely created by the hype or demand that everyone has for it and nothing else. Even if we talk about companies as well their backing is the revenues or earnings they do which too they are doing in fiat only so technically it's more or less the same. So which asset do you think really has any value?

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July 03, 2022, 09:36:45 PM
Merited by darkv0rt3x (1)
 #91

I would even say more. It's more likely that something will be pegged to Bitcoin in the future as money was pegged to gold during the gold standard than Bitcoin have anything to be pegged to. As I already said before and explained, Bitcoin is the only and best sound money known to man kind! There's not much more to say about it!
This is something that we can be I do know about cryptocurrency and you know in time coming beachcomb will be something everyone will value and people that is using it now will be the leaders because they have many currencies they used before Kashmir became the universal money for universal currency so in time coming Bitcoin will be generalized

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July 04, 2022, 05:14:28 PM
 #92

This idea has been talked about and it is a stupid idea. We do not want it to be based on anything, we just want a free market that is not tied to anyone or anything and that's it. Is bitcoin decentralized? Yes, it is. Are we the only ones who can decide on the price? Yes we are, then it's fine. Sure, if some powerful people come out and say something good or bad about it, then the price could go up or down.

But the important thing is, we are the ones buying or selling based on that news, and we can decide to ignore it as well. There is a huge difference between influencing something, and controlling something. Bitcoin can be influenced, but not controlled. That's the power of bitcoin.

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July 05, 2022, 02:09:41 AM
 #93

This idea has been talked about and it is a stupid idea.
it's not a stupid idea for a cryptocurrency to be backed up by a decentralized asset. that doesn't exist right now. but it's not a stupid idea.

Quote

But the important thing is, we are the ones buying or selling based on that news, and we can decide to ignore it as well. There is a huge difference between influencing something, and controlling something. Bitcoin can be influenced, but not controlled. That's the power of bitcoin.
But with that said, having bitcoin based on "nothing" and letting the market decide what it is worth does have a simplicity to it and so that is fine. that's how bitcoin is. any other way would be much more complicated. but as i said, i don't think the idea of a crytocurrency being backed up by a decentralized asset is a stupid idea. it just hasn't been done yet. that's because of its complexity.

so why don't we just agree that bitcoin should stay like it is but maybe someday a new class of coins will come along that are based on a decentralized asset. but its hard to know how because as i said, it's a much more complicated situation than just making something not have to depend on anything and be based on "nothing". the minute you try and base something on something else, if something bad happens to that something else then something bad happens to the thing that is baseing off of it. bitcoin, by virtue of being based off of "nothing" doesn't suffer if the us dollar goes to 0. or if the euro goes to 0. or anything.
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July 05, 2022, 03:56:08 AM
 #94

i dont understand why bitcoin has to be just base on people perceive value of it. and for someone to just artrarily fix the supply of them at 21 million doesn't make any sense. it should be able to contract and expand the # of bitcoins in existence. but because bitcoin is design very simplistically it is kind of like monopoly money. not backed up by anything.

First of all Bitcoin is really hard to understand, that is the reality when someone enters this kind of Digital currency industry.
Also, let’s just remember that Bitcoin will remain as long as there are big whale investors who believe in this crypto.
Now that these Investors are gone whether they are big or not, it just means that there is no chance for Bitcoin to survive
in this kind of industry in the Digital world.



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July 05, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
 #95

Bitcoin is not a physical asset. Unlike gold, which we use.  But bitcoin is unique in its own way. It is a form of information. You can’t duplicate it. Moreover, if it were backed up by something, it would become centralised, which would defy its whole meaning and its existence.
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July 05, 2022, 10:46:21 AM
 #96

Likewise, everyone has a different concept of the market. Some believe in bitcoin and some don’t. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value or isn’t real. It is. You can get rich if you make the right investment plans. That is all it takes, study of the market and research.
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July 06, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
 #97

Why would it be? That's the good approach and I like it.
I personally do not think that things that we have as "based on" are not really based on it neither.

Like gold is not just based on gold if you ask me, it is just the market decided to play with it, and wealthy people are playing with it, you could give them literally manure, and they will make a huge market out of manure and act as if it is something super valuable and buy and sell accordingly.

Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be something special, it just means that they could take anything, say it's "backed", and then do whatever they want with it and leverage it 100 times over to make money from it.
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July 07, 2022, 12:00:53 AM
 #98


Like gold is not just based on gold if you ask me, it is just the market decided to play with it, and wealthy people are playing with it, you could give them literally manure, and they will make a huge market out of manure and act as if it is something super valuable and buy and sell accordingly.

ever heard of commodities? manure is a commodity just like oil or natural gas. or hay. its tangible product that people will pay for.
Quote
Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be something special, it just means that they could take anything, say it's "backed", and then do whatever they want with it and leverage it 100 times over to make money from it.
ever heard of pork bellies?

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July 07, 2022, 12:19:30 AM
 #99

Money does not need to be "backed up" by something. In fact no money in the world is backed up by anything. Take US dollar for example, it is not backed up by anything except a stupid faith 70 years ago. So the real question you need to be answering first is why should bitcoin be different from other currencies?
Exactly, I think everything depends on the stock and demand.
We are the ones who are naming the price of things or even currency on this world.
The market decides the price of everything based on the demand.

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.
.START TRADING.
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July 07, 2022, 12:49:46 AM
 #100


Like gold is not just based on gold if you ask me, it is just the market decided to play with it, and wealthy people are playing with it, you could give them literally manure, and they will make a huge market out of manure and act as if it is something super valuable and buy and sell accordingly.

ever heard of commodities? manure is a commodity just like oil or natural gas. or hay. its tangible product that people will pay for.
Quote
Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be something special, it just means that they could take anything, say it's "backed", and then do whatever they want with it and leverage it 100 times over to make money from it.
ever heard of pork bellies?



the goal is for transactions to be transparent. going back to the basics like fiat or gold or physical transactions will negate that aspect.
Bitcoin is backed by MATH and POW which the hashrate increased so much that if the power is converted to money is really huge. that's what backed BTC.

if you back something with manure then its a shit, maybe a community of farmers will find the manure useful for organic farming but its for the farming community not for all.

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