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Author Topic: why can't bitcoin be based on something that has value?  (Read 1986 times)
348Judah
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September 09, 2022, 05:59:28 PM
 #161

i dont understand why bitcoin has to be just base on people perceive value of it. and for someone to just artrarily fix the supply of them at 21 million doesn't make any sense

Bitcoin is pretty ok with the fact that it is independent and don't need a backup, or let's come in again from this aspect, what should be the back up for bitcoin? Is it gold, or what? I don't see anything worth the standard to back a decentralized currency like bitcoin, it obviously make no sense and needles, the network is self protected with it value embedded within.


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ncentrepreneur.investor
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September 10, 2022, 08:18:14 PM
 #162

i dont understand why bitcoin has to be just base on people perceive value of it. and for someone to just artrarily fix the supply of them at 21 million doesn't make any sense. it should be able to contract and expand the # of bitcoins in existence. but because bitcoin is design very simplistically it is kind of like monopoly money. not backed up by anything.


Quote from: death_wish
It's a common myth.  Bitcoin’s price is not directly caused by subjective perceptions:  It is a result of the market, based on supply and demand.  Perceptions are one factor in the “demand” side of that.  There are other factors to demand; and perceptions do not alter supply.

Ultimately, Bitcoin’s fundamental value derives from its facilitation of productive economic activity, which would be costlier, infeasible, or impossible without Bitcoin.  I know that I have done productive non-Bitcoin, non-market business with Bitcoin, which I could not have done without Bitcoin.  That’s not extraordinary:  It is being an ordinary Bitcoiner who uses Bitcoin as money, rather than a purely speculative buyer who just wants “number go up”.  The more such people they are, the higher the organic, non-speculative demand for BTC.
i'm not saying bitcoin doesn't do that. but bitcoin has weaknesses. you can't deny that. the main weakness being that it is not backed up by something like gold. gold could then be used to measure the value of bitcoin. and gold has real world use. people wear it. it gets used in all kinds of electronics. bitcoin doesn't get used anywhere for any purpose. it's just imaginary.


Quote
This discussion of economics is far off-topic for the development forum.  I feel obliged to answer something that is more usually nocoiner FUD or newbie confusion.  If you have further questions about this, I refer you to Bitcoin Discussion or Economics.
ok well, the topic belongs somewhere.

Question to you specifically. What is gold backed by? Nothing. It has value because it meets the 5 monetary properties. It backs itself. It takes a great amount of work and energy to mine gold. So does Bitcoin. Bitcoin also meets 7 monetary properties. It also takes an extreme amount of computational work and energy to create it. Thats why it is called a Bearer Asset, Base layer, apex property. Its the properties that it meets for monetary value, not backing.
larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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September 13, 2022, 11:05:50 PM
 #163



Question to you specifically. What is gold backed by? Nothing. It has value because it meets the 5 monetary properties. It backs itself. It takes a great amount of work and energy to mine gold. So does Bitcoin.
just because something takes a huge amount of energy to obtain does not necessarily make it valuable i would think.  for example someone could clone bitcoin and modify it so that the difficulty target had more leading 0s. meaning its harder to mine takes more energy. does that make it more valuable?

Quote
Bitcoin also meets 7 monetary properties. It also takes an extreme amount of computational work and energy to create it. Thats why it is called a Bearer Asset, Base layer, apex property. Its the properties that it meets for monetary value, not backing.

You mean these? I'd say bitcoin meets most of them pretty well but not all of them sufficiently for example fungibility. bitcoin is not fungible. because bitcoin is not private and anonymous. the "storability" one is also a bit suspect since to get to the point of being able to store your own bitcoin, most people are going to be relying upon banks and financial institutions, if that wasn't the case bitcoin wouldn't be anywhere near the price it is today.

Bitcoin’s monetary properties include:

Transferability — The ability of an item to be transferred anywhere in the world with the highest possible speed and at the lowest possible cost
Divisibility — The ability of an item to be divided conveniently and reliably into smaller pieces, thereby accommodating any transaction size
Storability — The ability to be self-custodied by anyone, without relying on a bank or financial institution
Durability — The ability to be as resistant to degradation as the medium in which it is stored
Verifiability — The ability of an item to be reliably verified as real by its users
Fungibility — The ability of each item unit to be equivalent to any other item unit
Scarcity — An item’s resistance to increasing its supply
Censorship Resistance — The ability for anyone to use a form of money without fear of the money being confiscated or frozen.
franky1
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September 14, 2022, 04:19:10 AM
Last edit: September 14, 2022, 04:41:24 AM by franky1
 #164

does that make it more valuable?

something having value (economic number)
someones values(desires, emotions, sentiments of features and benefits)
something valuable(value + values)

there are 3 different words of different meaning you are not quite grasping

let alone the previous lessons of the different of price vs value

You mean these? I'd say bitcoin meets most of them pretty well but not all of them sufficiently for example .. the "storability" one is also a bit suspect since to get to the point of being able to store your own bitcoin, most people are going to be relying upon banks and financial institutions

banks ?
no bank has offered a bank account to put your bitcoins in

if you mean exchanges used as custodians.

you dont store your own bitcoin in a custodian. .. once you transfer your coin to a custodian address, they are no longer "your own"

bitcoins never leave the blockchain. EVER
if they are not on your keys they are not yours.

peoples decision to give up ownership rights to property they feel is theirs by deciding to transfer ownership over to a custodian is not a bitcoin flaw.. its a human flaw

once the transfer is complete where you no longer have ownership control using bitcoin. you are then no longer using bitcoin. but using the human world of trust and business law

(much like handing bank notes to a bank. doing so you lose the privilege of bank note utility, and now entered the realm of business law of their service terms and conditions of their limits and access restrictions if you were to request some bank notes back)
....

bitcoin stores bitcoins perfectly. using the cryptographic keys to secure ownership access vis transaction signing as proof of ownership

if someone seen a banana/necklace/bank note on the open street. can you prove it was your banknote.. nope

everyone can see bitcoin on the blockchain. but no one else can grab it and take it. only the owner can move it/claim it.

bitcoin is stored very very well

bitcoin solves many many flaws of previous versions of money.
but nothing can solve the many flaws of human

it requires us humans to know and learn and protect what is ours. it requires us to change our ways

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
larry_vw_1955 (OP)
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September 15, 2022, 12:31:33 AM
 #165


something having value (economic number)
someones values(desires, emotions, sentiments of features and benefits)
something valuable(value + values)

there are 3 different words of different meaning you are not quite grasping

let alone the previous lessons of the different of price vs value

well in this context i thought we were narrowing down the focus to something that takes alot of energy and that's what supposedly gives it "value" which i disagree. you can expend alot of energy on something but does that automatically give it value?

You mean these? I'd say bitcoin meets most of them pretty well but not all of them sufficiently for example .. the "storability" one is also a bit suspect since to get to the point of being able to store your own bitcoin, most people are going to be relying upon banks and financial institutions

Quote
banks ?
no bank has offered a bank account to put your bitcoins in

if you mean exchanges used as custodians.

you dont store your own bitcoin in a custodian. .. once you transfer your coin to a custodian address, they are no longer "your own"


How do you think most people obtain bitcoin? They transfer fiat from their bank to a centralized exchange and hope the exchange gives them some bitcoin that they can then transfer it into their own wallet to be able to self-custody but they are relying upon banks and financial institutions for the entire procedure, as I mentioned above. And that's the problem. When you want to cash out, you have to go through the entire procedure IN REVERSE. Most people do anyway. People that follow the status quo. So in reality, bitcoin is heavily tied into banks and other financial outfits like it or not. Heavily dependent upon them for its current price.
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September 15, 2022, 01:13:54 AM
 #166

well in this context i thought we were narrowing down the focus to something that takes alot of energy and that's what supposedly gives it "value" which i disagree. you can expend alot of energy on something but does that automatically give it value?
you are yet again forgetting the layering affect. and the different wording

something that people find desirable and useful (their sentiment(values)).. turns a liability(cost) into a asset(value)

values(sentiment)+value(cost)=valuable
combining the values and value = something "becomes valuable"
valuable=able to have value

costing alot doesnt "give value" on its own
but its that underlying cost thats the financial value amount underlying the price of an item that has values

EG bitcoin jan2009-feb2010 had values(sentiment desire/need) but didnt have a value(economic number)
bitcoin did not become valuable until ~march 2010


just concentrating on the words "backed by value" (not values/valuable))
is the backed by a underlying cost no one wants to sell below thus its backed by a minimal amount everyone refuses to go below. backing a minimal amount(value)
bitcoins is backed by a value of $15k. no one wants to sell below this right now. thus its backed and supported.
the price is higher due to the speculative part of sentiments of individuals

but underlying the random whims of individuals. is the ultimate bottom cost no one sells below buy everyone is willing to pay that or more.. thus backed by that value

You mean these? I'd say bitcoin meets most of them pretty well but not all of them sufficiently for example .. the "storability" one is also a bit suspect since to get to the point of being able to store your own bitcoin, most people are going to be relying upon banks and financial institutions
Quote
banks ?
no bank has offered a bank account to put your bitcoins in

if you mean exchanges used as custodians.

you dont store your own bitcoin in a custodian. .. once you transfer your coin to a custodian address, they are no longer "your own"

How do you think most people obtain bitcoin? They transfer fiat from their bank to a centralized exchange and hope the exchange gives them some bitcoin

banks dont store/offer bitcoin.BANKS ill repeat BANKS do not. they offer FIAT services

people can use banks to service their FIAT transfers. but BANKS dont service bitcoin custody.

as for other businesses (exchanges) well if the bitcoin is not on your key the coin is not yours. you have no legal rights to the coin, you are stuck with whatever rights the service whichs to offer in its terms and coditions to privilige of access to balance at whatever rate they may decide..

yes good honourable exchanges do offer 1:1 but thats something you need to check a businesses terms and conditions for.

 exchanges. under their business practice and service T&C may decide to allow users to do things with balance the business stores in its databases. where the business decides to honour a 1:1 swap of their mysql balance for a coins deposit/withdrawal. but that can easily change by them change their business terms and conditions..

do not confuse a crypto exchange for the BITCOIN protocol/rules

you see this happen with fiat. banks change there terms of service about fiat. its where they change interest rates or monthly charges, or rates, or fee's or other messy things where people dont always get back what they handed to a bank

do not confuse a bank with a bank note. once you hand abank note to a bank. you lose rights over the bank note. they can and do limit your access to the bank notes you deposited(handed to them)

do not confuse the bitcoin networks storage.. with businesses terms and conditions of users membership of balance on their database..

do not trust a exchange.. use them by all means for quick activity. but dont think of exchanges as wallets or the bitcoin network rules

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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