[CHESS] FIDE Candidates Chess Tournament 2022

[Lucasgabd]

shows the big crisis of values we are going through @LUCKMCFLY

regarding humans and machines
interesting point of view
possibly our skill on improvisation and outside of box thinking are the things that would be really hard for a machine to develop

[qwertyup23]

Yes, in the end it all comes down to making a profit. Niemann has cheated in 10 cash prize tournaments, and chess.com is ready to defend this point of view in court (since they published their report). It surprises me that after such a scandal, there are still no sanctions from FIDE - they just created a commission to determine if he cheated in games over the board.

Confirmed swindler, thief and scum without any problems participates in the US Chess Championship.
By the way, today there will be an interesting game between Niemann and Caruana https://www.uschesschamps.com/2022-us-championships/pairings-results

When COVID hit, I think that it was the time that he executed the opportunity of cheating. Lots of sports and companies slowly shifted to that kind of setup and security was not that stringent compared now. Given that most sports/companies have adapted to this kind of setting, they now have all the means of security in detecting these kinds of cheats.

What Niemann and the other cheaters did is just a disgrace to Chess. More importantly, he cheated on multiple tournaments that involved cashed prizes. I wonder what kind of prohibition and ban would Niemann get and the other FM-GMs as well.

Anyway, I do seriously recommend the game that transpired between Magnus and Korobov!

The data shows that Niemann began to cheat long before covid. As for the ban, the paradox is that the online competitions in which he cheated were not held under the auspices of FIDE, and there is no evidence (there is no direct evidence, there are indirect ones, but this is not enough for "legal" actions) that he cheated over the board.
Thus the swindler and thief (who was caught and admitted it) continues to participate in FIDE competitions. I am simply shocked by this nonsense and impotence of FIDE officials.
To be fair, we should admit that FIDE behaved this way towards cheaters for a long time - they catch only the most impudent ones who don't even try to hide. For example, Rasius, about whom absolutely everyone knew that he was a cheater, but he cheated for several years without any problems despite the complaints of his rivals.

What do you think should be the proper sanction given that Niemann participated in various tournaments where he cheated and won the cash prizes? I do think that we need to see a statement from the camp of Magnus about this allegation. It is has been dragging the Chess scene for a while now and it is not definitely helping in terms of its popularity amongst people.

Given that Chess.com posted a list of GMs who cheated on their website, a rule must be implemented prohibiting/punishing these players, and not Niemann alone.

[Boristhecat]

The data shows that Niemann began to cheat long before covid. As for the ban, the paradox is that the online competitions in which he cheated were not held under the auspices of FIDE, and there is no evidence (there is no direct evidence, there are indirect ones, but this is not enough for "legal" actions) that he cheated over the board.
Thus the swindler and thief (who was caught and admitted it) continues to participate in FIDE competitions. I am simply shocked by this nonsense and impotence of FIDE officials.
To be fair, we should admit that FIDE behaved this way towards cheaters for a long time - they catch only the most impudent ones who don't even try to hide. For example, Rasius, about whom absolutely everyone knew that he was a cheater, but he cheated for several years without any problems despite the complaints of his rivals.

What do you think should be the proper sanction given that Niemann participated in various tournaments where he cheated and won the cash prizes? I do think that we need to see a statement from the camp of Magnus about this allegation. It is has been dragging the Chess scene for a while now and it is not definitely helping in terms of its popularity amongst people.

Given that Chess.com posted a list of GMs who cheated on their website, a rule must be implemented prohibiting/punishing these players, and not Niemann alone.

What list are you talking about? I haven't seen anything like it. Chess.com has openly named only two GMs who have been caught consistently cheating - Niemann and his former coach Dlugi.

As for the sanctions, I think that it should be a lifetime ban in all competitions. And in fact, I consider this a lenient punishment, since Nieman is obviously a scammer and took other people's money through fraud. I don’t understand why he can’t be put in jail like other scammers?

[Lucasgabd]

<..>

As for the sanctions, I think that it should be a lifetime ban in all competitions. And in fact, I consider this a lenient punishment, since Nieman is obviously a scammer and took other people's money through fraud. I don’t understand why he can’t be put in jail like other scammers?

have you watched "tinder swindler"?
sometimes it's hard to put people in prison in some cases of fraud
crazy system

not sure if this applies to the case in question with Nieman
maybe not

on the movie the guy can't really be punished because he does a lot of international scams and fool the women to pay and take loans for him, since "psychological pressure and emotional manipulation" are not crimes he doesn't go to jail.

[Boristhecat]

<..>

As for the sanctions, I think that it should be a lifetime ban in all competitions. And in fact, I consider this a lenient punishment, since Nieman is obviously a scammer and took other people's money through fraud. I don’t understand why he can’t be put in jail like other scammers?

have you watched "tinder swindler"?
sometimes it's hard to put people in prison in some cases of fraud
crazy system

not sure if this applies to the case in question with Nieman
maybe not

on the movie the guy can't really be punished because he does a lot of international scams and fool the women to pay and take loans for him, since "psychological pressure and emotional manipulation" are not crimes he doesn't go to jail.

I haven't seen this movie but I've heard about it. I would not draw analogies, since everything is more or less simple here - Niemann has US citizenship Chess.com also works in US jurisdiction. It would be cool if some independent prosecutor started an investigation against him and filed charges. There are enough reasons for this: he appropriated other people's money using other people's trust - this fully fits the criminal article of fraud, even though there is no criminal punishment for cheating. But the court can qualify any action as it sees fit (based on the opinions of experts, of course).

[Lucasgabd]

well, you have a point
seems like the two cases are different as you mentioned
maybe all it takes is someone to get worried with what Niemann is doing and deciding to sue him

[Baofeng]

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

[LUCKMCFLY]

<..>

As for the sanctions, I think that it should be a lifetime ban in all competitions. And in fact, I consider this a lenient punishment, since Nieman is obviously a scammer and took other people's money through fraud. I don’t understand why he can’t be put in jail like other scammers?

have you watched "tinder swindler"?
sometimes it's hard to put people in prison in some cases of fraud
crazy system

not sure if this applies to the case in question with Nieman
maybe not

on the movie the guy can't really be punished because he does a lot of international scams and fool the women to pay and take loans for him, since "psychological pressure and emotional manipulation" are not crimes he doesn't go to jail.

I haven't seen this movie but I've heard about it. I would not draw analogies, since everything is more or less simple here - Niemann has US citizenship Chess.com also works in US jurisdiction. It would be cool if some independent prosecutor started an investigation against him and filed charges. There are enough reasons for this: he appropriated other people's money using other people's trust - this fully fits the criminal article of fraud, even though there is no criminal punishment for cheating. But the court can qualify any action as it sees fit (based on the opinions of experts, of course).

I have no idea what the laws are like in the USA, but according to what I have been hearing that they do not let any type of event of this kind escape, for me when there are frauds of this style, punishing them for life is usually something quite severe, but I think it is well deserved, scams and everything that involves stealing or taking things from others is something that has to be punished so that the person feels ashamed of what they did and others learn that they want or intend to do the same, depending on how They say it here, so it is likely that if someone very influential in the US political system could make something like this happen?

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

It really surprises me that this is put into context here, I had always heard things about cheating in other sports, but in chess? this is something that is sometimes difficult to believe, but it is totally believable, now it surprises me that people who know so much have to resort to this type of practice, this chess thing has many followers, it has many fans, it is also a sport for intelligent people, and what they show here has no intelligence at all, so what example do they give? why do they do it? As long as there is an easy but murky path, it will never give good news, it seems to me that these things should never happen.

[qwertyup23]

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

I think that this would be a very difficult case for Niemann if he wants to prove that a defamation case does exist.

Again, $100 million is a lot of money and Carlsen would definitely hire lawyers who would prove against the idea that Niemann raised. I am also baffled on what Niemann is asking- he is considered a cheater due to participating into online tournament with the use of engines on his side. Given this fact, I do think that the case he filed would be against him- which is worsening his position and futility.

[Lucasgabd]

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

I think that this would be a very difficult case for Niemann if he wants to prove that a defamation case does exist.

Again, $100 million is a lot of money and Carlsen would definitely hire lawyers who would prove against the idea that Niemann raised. I am also baffled on what Niemann is asking- he is considered a cheater due to participating into online tournament with the use of engines on his side. Given this fact, I do think that the case he filed would be against him- which is worsening his position and futility.

definitely bold to try to sue probably being on the wrong side

somehow reminds me of the Rayder case against BAYC, the guy is obviously a copycat but still used the lawsuit as a way to gain publicity and exposure.
people do some crazy things for clout.

[btc_angela]

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

I think that this would be a very difficult case for Niemann if he wants to prove that a defamation case does exist.

Or let's put it this way, if Niemann wants to prove his innocence and that he is not a cheater.

Again, $100 million is a lot of money and Carlsen would definitely hire lawyers who would prove against the idea that Niemann raised. I am also baffled on what Niemann is asking- he is considered a cheater due to participating into online tournament with the use of engines on his side. Given this fact, I do think that the case he filed would be against him- which is worsening his position and futility.

He probably just balloon that amount to put some intimidation on Magnus, but I highly doubt the court will give in to that demand money of his. And I guess the burden is on his side to prove his innocence. As for Magnus, there are fellow GM that are showing some in Youtube and on print that something is not right. And Niemann had admitted in the past that he has cheated isn't it? So there is already a precedence and for sure this will weight in the court of law.

[Baofeng]

And so this is the official documents filed by Niemann for a defamation case against Magnus, Chess.com and GM Hikaru Nakamura. It's it has a lot of zeroes, hehehe, $100 million.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.moed.198608/gov.uscourts.moed.198608.1.0.pdf

I don't know how far this case will go, nevertheless and if I'm not mistaken, this is the first time that we have heard this kind of noise in the chess industry. And so the drama continues and we will see what "proof" Carlsen and Chess.com will produce in front of the court for their cheating allegations.

I think that this would be a very difficult case for Niemann if he wants to prove that a defamation case does exist.

Right, not favoring anyone, but this could drag his name and if he lost this one, for sure, it will put a dent on him playing chess for sure.

Again, $100 million is a lot of money and Carlsen would definitely hire lawyers who would prove against the idea that Niemann raised. I am also baffled on what Niemann is asking- he is considered a cheater due to participating into online tournament with the use of engines on his side. Given this fact, I do think that the case he filed would be against him- which is worsening his position and futility.

I agree that it will took a toll on his already worsening position in the community. But I guess he just wanted to put everything to rest and this is the right course. Nevertheless, there are proof and this could be used in the court to magnify his allege "cheating".

[Lucasgabd]

and nobody is suing him for cheating? in the end

the system is quite crazy, would expect at least something from FIDE, I don't know

too much drama.
how do you all think this will end?

[Boristhecat]

and nobody is suing him for cheating? in the end

the system is quite crazy, would expect at least something from FIDE, I don't know

too much drama.
how do you all think this will end?

So far, only he is filing lawsuits (which have no judicial prospects) just to save face. FIDE has not been active in this issue for all the years of its existence and has acted only to pacify scandals and negativity around chess (one might say on the side of cheaters). Therefore, here you should not expect any activity from them.
I think all this will end up with Niemann not being able to win anything in court, and the top chess community will try to ignore him.
But the question of the future is more interesting - how will it be possible to detect cheaters (and what about mind games in general) when the human brain is combined with external interfaces? These are questions for the near future, and it looks like they will finally kill the games.

[Lucasgabd]

and nobody is suing him for cheating? in the end

the system is quite crazy, would expect at least something from FIDE, I don't know

too much drama.
how do you all think this will end?

So far, only he is filing lawsuits (which have no judicial prospects) just to save face. FIDE has not been active in this issue for all the years of its existence and has acted only to pacify scandals and negativity around chess (one might say on the side of cheaters). Therefore, here you should not expect any activity from them.
I think all this will end up with Niemann not being able to win anything in court, and the top chess community will try to ignore him.
But the question of the future is more interesting - how will it be possible to detect cheaters (and what about mind games in general) when the human brain is combined with external interfaces? These are questions for the near future, and it looks like they will finally kill the games.

oh, these are really interesting questions
possibly with neuralink it'd be the end of chess championships as we know it
or maybe there'll be some kind of way to detect human-computer interfaces (think a metal detector for nano things in the brain)

[BitcoinAccepted]

There is still no 100% evidence that Niemann actually cheated. It may not be necessary to get caught in the red, but the accusation based on computer analysis alone is not watertight enough. People also have to wonder how it could be possible that he cheated? A video shows that an arbitrator scans metal detector Niemann with one hand, and that nothing was found. That means 100% that he had no electronics with him at the time this happened. How could he have cheated? Online cheating may have happened since you don't work with metal detectors there.

[OgNasty]

There is still no 100% evidence that Niemann actually cheated. It may not be necessary to get caught in the red, but the accusation based on computer analysis alone is not watertight enough. People also have to wonder how it could be possible that he cheated? A video shows that an arbitrator scans metal detector Niemann with one hand, and that nothing was found. That means 100% that he had no electronics with him at the time this happened. How could he have cheated? Online cheating may have happened since you don't work with metal detectors there.

Who knows how exactly he cheated, but I think everyone is somewhat aware it happened.  Anyone who's seen the movie Godfather knows that he probably excused himself to the bathroom where there was obviously a string of anal beads that he inserted into himself...  At least that's what my limited knowledge of the situation and instant judgement leads me to.  I would think if the rumors or allegations weren't true, we'd be hearing from the man himself that they aren't true.  Maybe it's just the media sensationalizing everything and I took it hook line and sinker, but I'm sure I would've seen some sort of honest denial of the event if it happened (the denial).  If it isn't true, someone had one hell of an imagination to come up with this.

[qwertyup23]

There is still no 100% evidence that Niemann actually cheated. It may not be necessary to get caught in the red, but the accusation based on computer analysis alone is not watertight enough. People also have to wonder how it could be possible that he cheated? A video shows that an arbitrator scans metal detector Niemann with one hand, and that nothing was found. That means 100% that he had no electronics with him at the time this happened. How could he have cheated? Online cheating may have happened since you don't work with metal detectors there.

Who knows how exactly he cheated, but I think everyone is somewhat aware it happened.  Anyone who's seen the movie Godfather knows that he probably excused himself to the bathroom where there was obviously a string of anal beads that he inserted into himself...  At least that's what my limited knowledge of the situation and instant judgement leads me to.  I would think if the rumors or allegations weren't true, we'd be hearing from the man himself that they aren't true.  Maybe it's just the media sensationalizing everything and I took it hook line and sinker, but I'm sure I would've seen some sort of honest denial of the event if it happened (the denial).  If it isn't true, someone had one hell of an imagination to come up with this.

To be honest, the issue somehow "died down" a little especially that there are lots of tournaments happening. I am very curious to see as to the case of Niemann when he filed a defamation suit demanding for $100 million dollars for damages in his reputation. Though I am heavily inclined into thinking that the suit would not prosper, I am still looking forward to see the evidence on the camp of Magnus against all the allegations that he did.

With all the evidence that chess.com released (list of cheaters), I think that Niemann would definitely suffer and get the shorter end of the stick. I guess he really had to pay for the consequences of his actions.

[Boristhecat]

There is still no 100% evidence that Niemann actually cheated. It may not be necessary to get caught in the red, but the accusation based on computer analysis alone is not watertight enough. People also have to wonder how it could be possible that he cheated? A video shows that an arbitrator scans metal detector Niemann with one hand, and that nothing was found. That means 100% that he had no electronics with him at the time this happened. How could he have cheated? Online cheating may have happened since you don't work with metal detectors there.

These metal detectors cannot detect the presence of an earpiece in the ear (or anywhere else hahaha). You are right that there is no direct evidence that Niemann cheated over the board, but how do you personally feel about a person who has already been caught cheating online? And it happened not once or twice, but more times. From the point of view of ordinary logic and reputation, he is a cheater and it is obvious that few people have the desire to play with him in the conditions that full protection against cheating cannot be provided.

[Lucasgabd]

There is still no 100% evidence that Niemann actually cheated. It may not be necessary to get caught in the red, but the accusation based on computer analysis alone is not watertight enough. People also have to wonder how it could be possible that he cheated? A video shows that an arbitrator scans metal detector Niemann with one hand, and that nothing was found. That means 100% that he had no electronics with him at the time this happened. How could he have cheated? Online cheating may have happened since you don't work with metal detectors there.

These metal detectors cannot detect the presence of an earpiece in the ear (or anywhere else hahaha). You are right that there is no direct evidence that Niemann cheated over the board, but how do you personally feel about a person who has already been caught cheating online? And it happened not once or twice, but more times. From the point of view of ordinary logic and reputation, he is a cheater and it is obvious that few people have the desire to play with him in the conditions that full protection against cheating cannot be provided.

reputation plays a role but it'll be a tough world if we start judging people only for the things they did way back in the past
people can learn and change too
just my two sats here