Wasabi blacklisting update - open letter / 24 questions discussion thread

[NotATether]

Bitcoin Core have slow progress, everything that doesn't have money have slow progress, companies make faster progress. Protecting yourself against the attacks of the nation state is acceptable.

Because when you are working on an important project you must triple-check everything to avoid introducing a single error or crash, that's why you must drive at 10mph, whereas these companies are driving a Lamborghini at 100mph and making reckless decisions like making a sharp turn at a corner and then they flip over and burst into flames, like Celcius, or any of these exchanges that are in financial trouble right now, or even those blockchains that were foolish enough to change their proof algorithm and now face an uncertain future (Hi Ethereum).


Whatever chain-anal is sending data to Wasabi wallet already has a record of the sold data and has probably coughed it up to the NSA by now and is being used to correlate wasabi users with whatever other data they have on Bitcoiners.

The end-game is to take action against individual bitcoiners and harass them legally, not to merely trace outputs back to you.

So it is important that the userbase of Bitcoin must grow in order for their databases to be flooded with so much data that they can't keep a permanent record of them, but only leave them in their stores for a few days. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore#Data_sources)

[1714828646]

1714828646

[o_e_l_e_o]

That's why it's not bad it's being brought up in this context. We need fungibility to be able to use Bitcoin as free(dom) money.

To paraphrase Antonopoulos, if you can't use your money to buy drugs, which is the second largest market in the world after food/drink and has been for thousands of years, then your money is not really money at all. There is no money in the world which you can't use to buy drugs with, and if your money can't be used in the second largest global market, then it isn't actually money.

That doesn't stop governments and their agencies using this to help promote their taint nonsense. Just don't pay any attention to the fact that the annual fiat spending on illegal drugs eclipses the entire market cap of bitcoin.

I am aware of Zerocash, Zerocoin, Zcash and Monero - anything else to have a look at?

Zerocoin and later Zerocash are the protocols which led to the creation of Zcash, not altcoins in their own right. Zcash is not private by default, requires trust in the initial set up, is ran by a centralized entity which awarded themselves 10% of all Zcash ever created, and is transitioning to proof of stake. I have seen nothing which convinces me it is better, or indeed even close to, Monero.

[dkbit98]

I am aware of Zerocash, Zerocoin, Zcash and Monero - anything else to have a look at?

I guess mimble-wimble could be considered because it's already working in Litecoin that has similar code like Bitcoin, bit it is arguably inferior to Monero.
Problem is that adding mimble-wimble or any other privacy related code change would probably create new Bitcoin fork and drama in community, but maybe that is not such a bad thing.
It could also be possible to create some second layer network that would have full privacy working on top of Bitcoin, but I didn't see anything like that getting any tracking.
You can see most privacy based altcoins on Coingecko page, but most of them are centralized junk with no real development:
https://www.coingecko.com/en/categories/privacy-coins

[n0nce]

[...]
So it is important that the userbase of Bitcoin must grow in order for their databases to be flooded with so much data that they can't keep a permanent record of them, but only leave them in their stores for a few days. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore#Data_sources)

Have you run the numbers? It would be hilarious, in a way beating them at their own game by feeding them so much data that they can't process it anymore.

[...]

I am aware of Zerocash, Zerocoin, Zcash and Monero - anything else to have a look at?

Zerocoin and later Zerocash are the protocols which led to the creation of Zcash, not altcoins in their own right. Zcash is not private by default, requires trust in the initial set up, is ran by a centralized entity which awarded themselves 10% of all Zcash ever created, and is transitioning to proof of stake.

I know! Just listing protocols / concepts I've read through in my quest to find something suited for Bitcoin. I guess this could be an interesting topic for a new thread, if it doesn't exist yet.

I have seen nothing which convinces me it is better, or indeed even close to, Monero.

That's interesting. If memory saves correct, Monero is basically CoinJoining all the time, plus hiding amounts. I guess if CoinJoin can be skipped altogether, it would be even better - that's what I like about the aforementioned protocols. But it would be great to discuss in a dedicated thread.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Monero is basically CoinJoining all the time, plus hiding amounts.

Yes, but instead of CoinJoining, which creates economic problems (as it requires coordinators and other users to be online at that time), it utilizes ring signatures, and to avoid revealing the amounts, ring confidentiality. It also makes use of stealth addresses, which have a point because of the other two.

But it would be great to discuss in a dedicated thread.

We need a thread that will be technical enough to fit the Dev & Tech board, but not altcoin enough to be moved to the Altcoin Discussion (AKA, the forum's graveyard).

[n0nce]

Monero is basically CoinJoining all the time, plus hiding amounts.

Yes, but instead of CoinJoining, which creates economic problems (as it requires coordinators and other users to be online at that time), it utilizes ring signatures, and to avoid revealing the amounts, ring confidentiality. It also makes use of stealth addresses, which have a point because of the other two.

I do still believe it's glorified CoinJoin, with the shortcomings that come along with such a band-aid type solution. But glad to discuss!

But it would be great to discuss in a dedicated thread.

We need a thread that will be technical enough to fit the Dev & Tech board, but not altcoin enough to be moved to the Altcoin Discussion (AKA, the forum's graveyard).

Sure, I can get it done. Will tag y'all / reply here when ready (might be a day or two).

[o_e_l_e_o]

Have you run the numbers? It would be hilarious, in a way beating them at their own game by feeding them so much data that they can't process it anymore.

Such an approach would require encouraging tens of thousands of people to download and use Wasabi and compromise their own privacy in doing so. Not a great approach.

I do still believe it's glorified CoinJoin, with the shortcomings that come along with such a band-aid type solution. But glad to discuss!

It's a fundamentally different approach, and overcomes many of the downsides of coinjoining. Ring signatures are constructed locally and do not require any input from the ten decoys you use, meaning no centralized coordinator, no liquidity problems, and no coordinating with other users. The outcome of a Monero transaction is not a case of "this input is definitely linked to one of these outputs, but I don't know which one" as it is with coinjoins, but rather "I don't know which input is being used, and I don't know where it is going".

[DireWolfM14]

The outcome of a Monero transaction is not a case of "this input is definitely linked to one of these outputs, but I don't know which one" as it is with coinjoins, but rather "I don't know which input is being used, and I don't know where it is going".

In addition to not disclosing the origin or destination, the amount of the transaction is also obscured.  Monero is, in my opinion, the most secure and effective way to maintain privacy.  But, like anything else of course, the weakest link is the user.  The most secure privacy coin can't save you from yourself.

[NotATether]

Have you run the numbers? It would be hilarious, in a way beating them at their own game by feeding them so much data that they can't process it anymore.

Such an approach would require encouraging tens of thousands of people to download and use Wasabi and compromise their own privacy in doing so. Not a great approach.

How is that related to downloading/using Wasabi wallet though? I merely said Bitcoin users at large are being tracked - and with 18 million or so addresses used in total so far, their servers are already being kept busy but it is by no means enough addresses to overwhelm their (AWS/Azure/GCP) compute capacity.

[o_e_l_e_o]

How is that related to downloading/using Wasabi wallet though?

In that case I've misunderstood - apologies. I thought you were talking about specifically overwhelming Wasabi's capacity for blockchain analysis. Assuming they have to pay for every address they query with their blockchain analysis buddies, then this would be theoretically possible but as I mentioned would require encouraging people to voluntarily be spied on by downloading Wasabi and submitting many UTXOs to their coinjoin.

The problem with overwhelming blockchain analysis as a whole is as the bitcoin user base grows, so too does the value of bitcoin, which then in turn increases the amount of money governments and three letter agencies are willing to spend on blockchain analysis.

[DooMAD]

Have you run the numbers? It would be hilarious, in a way beating them at their own game by feeding them so much data that they can't process it anymore.

Such an approach would require encouraging tens of thousands of people to download and use Wasabi and compromise their own privacy in doing so. Not a great approach.

And on top of that, with storage being relatively cheap to purchase for big businesses, I doubt there would be enough willing participants to overload their systems anyway.  I'm also pretty sure that if the source of that information is from 2008, things have probably moved on since then and they can hold data for longer periods now.

[n0nce]

Monero is basically CoinJoining all the time, plus hiding amounts.

Yes, but instead of CoinJoining, which creates economic problems (as it requires coordinators and other users to be online at that time), it utilizes ring signatures, and to avoid revealing the amounts, ring confidentiality. It also makes use of stealth addresses, which have a point because of the other two.

But it would be great to discuss in a dedicated thread.

We need a thread that will be technical enough to fit the Dev & Tech board, but not altcoin enough to be moved to the Altcoin Discussion (AKA, the forum's graveyard).

I finally created said thread today. A big work in progress, but I hope for it to become a nice resource over time.

[Megathread] Bitcoin Layer 1 Privacy - concepts, ideas, research, discussion