Anyone tried FTX swap with Ledger Live?

[dkbit98]

Few days ago ledger announced big partnership with FTX exchange that enables easy coin swap using Ledger Live app with FTX.
Self-custody is preserved in this process and they say fees are low, but I am not sure if they are the same like if you would use only FTX exchange without ledger.
I first thought this could be a good idea because FTX is still offering kyc free tier for limited amounts, but than I saw that for use with Ledger Live is demands that your account passed KYC.
WHat confuses me is this statement written on ledger blog:

If you already are an FTX customer, there’s no need for an additional KYC

In theory that would mean that swaps could work even without kyc, so it would be nice if someone could test if this is working or not.
All you need is non-kyc FTX account and ledger hardware wallet with latest version of ledger live app (2.44.0 and newer).


https://www.ledger.com/blog/you-can-now-swap-your-crypto-with-ftx-through-ledger-live

PS
Unrelated with FTX, but I would like to warn everyone to STOP using Coinify exchange with their ledger wallet.
Coinify is owned by Voyager that recently went bankrupt and stopped all their withdrawals.

[Charles-Tim]

This is useful. But FTX is still a centralized exchange. I can remember many crypto exchanges were not requesting for KYC in the past, but see many of them that are now requesting for KYC. FTX at any point in time have the power to enforce KYC. In the process while some people want to swap one coin or token to another, it is possible that FTX may freeze the coin that the person want to swap and request for KYC just like instant exchanges. Centralized exchanges are always looking for ways to attract customers, the customers use the centralized exchanges trading platform, later the exchange will look for ways to make KYC more possible and mandatory. Is this not another way noncustodial addresses will be linked to real identity of exchange users in the future? We all know what exchanges can later make mandatory.

[Pmalek]

I am sure that Ledger takes a cut when you swap your coins with the new FTX and Ledger partnership. I remember doing a similar check without doing an actual swap with one of their other partners in the past. I just checked the rates. The offered rates in Ledger Live were worse than what I was offered on the exchange website. There is no reason to think that things would be different now with FTX. I can try something similar with FTX just to check the rates later. I am not doing their KYC though.

[dkbit98]

Is this not another way noncustodial addresses will be linked to real identity of exchange users in the future? We all know what exchanges can later make mandatory.

If it's now working with non-kyc account and they later change something you can always stop using it and disconnect your hardware wallet.
It's centralized exchange so I wouldn't trust they would run something like this forever.

I can try something similar with FTX just to check the rates later. I am not doing their KYC though.

I don't mind paying higher fees if it can be done without kyc, but I would think twice if I had to wait for hours for swap transaction to complete.
There are options for atomic swaps that can be added to ledger Live with lower fees, but I guess ledger wont earn so much money with that.

I see there are some troubles for people who rushed to try new FTX swap feature with their ledger devices, and it's not working like expected.
Swapping coins is taking hours in some cases so don't expect quick exchange, and I saw they are charging higher fees for this service:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/vuxkvg/why_does_swap_via_ftx_take_so_long_so_frustrated/

Other people are reporting unknown error messages when trying to swap coins and there are no explanation from ledger support:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/vumycd/ftx_error_when_trying_to_swap_on_ledger_live/

[bitmover]

Is this not another way noncustodial addresses will be linked to real identity of exchange users in the future? We all know what exchanges can later make mandatory.

If it's now working with non-kyc account and they later change something you can always stop using it and disconnect your hardware wallet.
It's centralized exchange so I wouldn't trust they would run something like this forever.

I tried to use it, and it requires login:



Then you are redirect to login with your FTX credentials.

I would never do this and I recommend that anyone who cares minimum about your privacy to avoid this.

You will be connecting basically your whole cryptocurrency stash (from ledger live) to your FTX account. Those two companies most likely will share our personal data with each other, as they are partners (and ledger doesn't really have the best reputation handling personal data)

It is way better just to go to FTX, create an account and transfer the input UTXO you want to spend. That is all you need.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

So it can't be done without having a registered FTX account and probably without passing KYC depending on the traded amounts. While you were doing the check, did you by any chance look at the difference in rates between Ledger's offer and the amount you could have gotten on FTX at that time? 1 BTC was equal to 17.595 ETH according to the rate in Ledger Live.

[bitmover]

<Snip>

So it can't be done without having a registered FTX account and probably without passing KYC depending on the traded amounts. While you were doing the check, did you by any chance look at the difference in rates between Ledger's offer and the amount you could have gotten on FTX at that time? 1 BTC was equal to 17.595 ETH according to the rate in Ledger Live.

The price is slightly different.
https://ftx.com/pt/trade/ETH/BTC
1 ETH = 0.0557125 BTC

and in Ledger Live/FTX:
1 ETH = 0.05508 BTC

Certainly it is much better to create a new order with a better price and wait it to fill up, instead of making a swap with market type order.

The convenience gain is not compared to the loss of privacy and worse price rate.

[dkbit98]

You will be connecting basically your whole cryptocurrency stash (from ledger live) to your FTX account. Those two companies most likely will share our personal data with each other, as they are partners (and ledger doesn't really have the best reputation handling personal data)

They can't share anything if you don't have any history of transactions in your Ledger Live app
You can easily create new empty account and only thing you would share is IP address, until or if you made some swap transactions.
I was not talking about KYC account at FTX so there would be no personal data to share anyway, and we already know that ledger is sharing other data with all of their third party partners.

I found few videos testing how this FTX-ledger swap works, and it had better rates than Changelly.
You all know I am not supporting ledger in any way, but this could be one function that can actually be useful if available without kyc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgJeKCYhzPw

[Pmalek]

Judging by this source from their help section, FTX has 3 different account levels when it comes to KYC. Unverified accounts where you only submit your email for the registration process, can't trade, deposit, or withdraw coins. The first level KYC requires personal data such as your name, date of birth, full address, and phone number. That limits you to $2.000 of crypto-only withdrawals per day.

So that's the minimum you have to do. The YouTuber in the video has probably reached Tier 1 or 2 in his FTX account, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to make the swap. The positive thing with FTX is that you at least don't have to submit pictures of your ID/passport for Tier 1. I am sure that many other platforms require pictures of your ID, a selfie, etc.   

[Charles-Tim]

It's centralized exchange so I wouldn't trust they would run something like this forever.

Exactly what I am pointing to as well.

The first level KYC requires personal data such as your name, date of birth, full address, and phone number. That limits you to $2.000 of crypto-only withdrawals per day.

They are centralized exchanges, may not (I do not know but most probably) support Tor or even VPN, exchanges as usual. This can not in anyway be private.

What I always think about centralized exchanges is that they should be avoided in respect to connecting cold wallet with the exchanges just like what I pointed to above, they are custodial exchange.

[Pmalek]

What I always think about centralized exchanges is that they should be avoided in respect to connecting cold wallet with the exchanges just like what I pointed to above, they are custodial exchange.

FTX is a custodial and centralized exchange, like many others, but this partnership is somewhat different. You don't lose custody of your coins if you swap them through Ledger Live and FTX. That's what the official documentation says. There is no need to deposit coins into FTX, make the swap, withdraw from FTX, and send the coins back to your Ledger. The swap is apparently non-custodial in nature.

Time will tell how true that claim is. If users get their assets frozen for whatever reason, we can no longer talk about self-custody.

[bitmover]

There is no need to deposit coins into FTX, make the swap, withdraw from FTX, and send the coins back to your Ledger. The swap is apparently non-custodial in nature.

Time will tell how true that claim is. If users get their assets frozen for whatever reason, we can no longer talk about self-custody.

I don't agree that you don't lose the custody, neither that you don't send the coins to ftx.

The swap itself happens when you first send your coins to FTX (Authorizing the transaction in your device). At this moment you don't have the custody,  even for just a few minutes.
Then FTX will send you back the coins you just exchanged.

I don't think this is risky.  But you need to provide all your KYC details to trade more than 2000 usd, and all your ledger live data/history will probably be shared with ftx.

There is very little convenience gain, very high privacy risk and also you are getting a worse exchange rate compared to using ftx itself.

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

I am only interpreting what the official partnership announcement stated and the term they used, which was self-custody. I don't believe it myself because similar terms or lies (if you want) were also said by those instant swap platforms that are around. They claim to do the swap process in a non-custodial way. But then we have cases of people being asked to undergo KYC, provide origin of funds, or the coins simply disappearing. Users have no way to get to those coins without getting in touch with the support of that centralized entity. If the process was non-custodial, a request for KYC could be answered with "yeah right, bugger off" and you just import your keys elsewhere and take back your coins. However, you can't do that.   

[crwth]

I think it's okay to log in as long as you have optimum security in place, like 2FA. Anything you do on the exchange requires it, so you are safe even if you log in. That's just for me, though.

I'm an FTX and KYC-verified user, and here is what it looks like.



It shows that it's KYC-approved, and you can then swap to whatever coins you want that are on FTX. You can swap anything that you HODL in your Ledger.

You have to create an account (on your ledger) if you don't have the said coin/token.

[bitmover]

I think it's okay to log in as long as you have optimum security in place, like 2FA. Anything you do on the exchange requires it, so you are safe even if you log in. That's just for me, though.

I'm an FTX and KYC-verified user, and here is what it looks like.

The only issue here is not security, but privacy.
You have now basically a KYC approved wallet.

If they share data (ftx and ledger, and they probably do), both have now your full balance and documents.

Additionally   you are probably paying a bit higher than in FTX exchnage  because you are  a making a market order (swap). You are not setting a price , but buying from the order book

[crwth]

The only issue here is not security, but privacy.
You have now basically a KYC approved wallet.

I never thought about it that way but yeah, if you ever need the easiest way to swap your coins when you have the KYC there. They probably have it already and I remember the breach with Ledger before with all the customers accounts. Well, still not okay with privacy. I understand that.

Additionally   you are probably paying a bit higher than in FTX exchnage  because you are  a making a market order (swap). You are not setting a price , but buying from the order book

I did compare it and of course I would like it better when I can set the amount of price that I want to. The process is just a lot faster rather than moving your coins to the exchange then withdrawing it. Takes a lot more time.

[PrivacyG]

The only advantage I see is that you can trade coins much quicker while still keeping your coins on your Ledger.  Other than this small comfort you get, I think there is nothing to earn out of it.  This is a great addition to Ledger if you are a daily trader, but for someone like me who wants a little (more) privacy it is useless.  Would never connect Live to an Exchange account.

They can't share anything if you don't have any history of transactions in your Ledger Live app
You can easily create new empty account and only thing you would share is IP address, until or if you made some swap transactions.
I was not talking about KYC account at FTX so there would be no personal data to share anyway, and we already know that ledger is sharing other data with all of their third party partners.

I think having a specific account linked to a specific IP and a specific wallet makes things much worse than just having Ledger share IP and wallet information with third parties.  If you use for example an Instant Exchange through Tor the right way, there is not much data they can gather on you.  But if you have an account on FTX, be it KYC verified or not and they link it to you, they will know so much more about your investment moves and behavior.  They will have an entire history to link to you.

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Regards,
PrivacyG