Be careful what you wish for, it might happen

[sbrys]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I get a lot of power to the people vibes while I’m not sure that a lot of people are ready for this.

How I’m experiencing things today (Simplified) :

- I pay more than 50% taxes —> I have no choice
- unemployment is supported by basic income

Basically I’m forced to share some wealth to keep society running

Imagine now a decentralized society :

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice
- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

[Despairo]

No one want to become an unemployment if they have a choice to work, many of unemployments are because they're lack of something that needed for the company. I'm sorry to say this, but a disabilities doesn't have a same chance like normal people because normal people can do more than a disabilities.

I don't see any wrong if the government want to support unemployments considering anyone need food to live, otherwise they will scam or steal money.

Taking advantages of decentralized because you don't want to pay tax isn't cool, but I can't blame since it's your choice.

Actually Satoshi didn't want to make a decentralized world, but he just create a payment tool that can be accepted widely and can't be blocked because of decentralization.

[darkv0rt3x]

To be honest, I myself defend a decentralized world, with little to no government intervention and etc, but in practice I can't imagine how things would run in such world. I know people say the Darwinism will prevail and will choose only the stronger, smarter, etc, I know maxis says that people's weaponization is the way to protect private property etc, and many more arguments from a couple of maxis out there, but there is so much more beyond that, that I'm not sure I can imagine how a world could run in such a libertarian or even anarchist models of society. Subjects like health, education, protection of the ones with "already" little to no resources, etc.
I mean, people has been being driven by socialists and capitalism and that developed a exploit mind set, a greedy mind set and a corruptible mind set that I don't know how could that ever be reverted.

[Poker Player]

Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

Im sure Im cutting some corners here but the principle stays afloat. Won’t Bitcoin create more disbalance while a lot of people are claiming the opposite.

It does not have to be this way. The problem with discussing all these things theoretically is that reality has many nuances that are not foreseen in theory. And there are theories that defend the opposite: that a world without state intervention would tend to equilibrium, instead of inequality, as you propose.

For me in principle I would like a more decentralized world, with less regulations and less taxes, although I think some are necessary. But the trend in the world is the opposite and if you look at Bitcoin the same, people buy Bitcoin on sites like Coinbase, there are more and more KYC etc. so the decentralization of Bitcoin is very tiny, not to mention that if I hire you to do a job for me, I pay you in Bitcoin and we do not pay taxes, we are committing an illegality.

So, leaving theory aside and thinking realistically, I believe that the decentralization brought by Bitcoin will be very limited.

[darkv0rt3x]

No one want to become an unemployment if they have a choice to work, many of unemployments are because they're lack of something that needed for the company. I'm sorry to say this, but a disabilities doesn't have a same chance like normal people because normal people can do more than a disabilities.

I don't see any wrong if the government want to support unemployment considering anyone need food to live, otherwise they will scam or steal money.

Taking advantages of decentralized because you don't want to pay tax isn't cool, but I can't blame since it's your choice.

Actually Satoshi didn't want to make a decentralized world, but he just create a payment tool that can be accepted widely and can't be blocked because of decentralization.

I see wrong in governments supporting unemployment or at least supporting it almost blindly. I believe there are more people taking advantage of this than the ones really needing the support! And another argument is that if people don't have this support, then, they might really be forced (not in a sense that someone coerces him, but rather he doesn't have another choice) to look for a job, to work harder to find a way of income, and that, in theory, will make those people better human beings. I know this will always sounds esoteric and utopian, but I still believe it. For one reason, which is that when you support someone because he can't find a job, you're feeding his mind set as a lazy because he knows he will get support, so he won't feel motivated to work harder to find a job or a way of income!

[sbrys]

I agree that in practice there will probably be some kind of support system however l’m not sure if it will be sufficient.

Also over here in Belgium tons of people chose for unemployment. Support is very close the minimum wage so it also makes sense to chose for it   But ok thats probably a regional issue.

But there are also more aspects to it. Unless you were very early Im sure most of crypto wealth is also already with the richest people on the planet.

[sbrys]

No one want to become an unemployment if they have a choice to work, many of unemployments are because they're lack of something that needed for the company. I'm sorry to say this, but a disabilities doesn't have a same chance like normal people because normal people can do more than a disabilities.

I don't see any wrong if the government want to support unemployment considering anyone need food to live, otherwise they will scam or steal money.

Taking advantages of decentralized because you don't want to pay tax isn't cool, but I can't blame since it's your choice.

Actually Satoshi didn't want to make a decentralized world, but he just create a payment tool that can be accepted widely and can't be blocked because of decentralization.

I see wrong in governments supporting unemployment or at least supporting it almost blindly. I believe there are more people taking advantage of this than the ones really needing the support! And another argument is that if people don't have this support, then, they might really be forced (not in a sense that someone coerces him, but rather he doesn't have another choice) to look for a job, to work harder to find a way of income, and that, in theory, will make those people better human beings. I know this will always sounds esoteric and utopian, but I still believe it. For one reason, which is that when you support someone because he can't find a job, you're feeding his mind set as a lazy because he knows he will get support, so he won't feel motivated to work harder to find a job or a way of income!

Indeed I agree it will force some people to contribute more because it will pay off more. I just wonder if people actively realize that. They only see a world without interference of the government.

[sbrys]

No one want to become an unemployment if they have a choice to work, many of unemployments are because they're lack of something that needed for the company. I'm sorry to say this, but a disabilities doesn't have a same chance like normal people because normal people can do more than a disabilities.

I don't see any wrong if the government want to support unemployments considering anyone need food to live, otherwise they will scam or steal money.

Taking advantages of decentralized because you don't want to pay tax isn't cool, but I can't blame since it's your choice.

Actually Satoshi didn't want to make a decentralized world, but he just create a payment tool that can be accepted widely and can't be blocked because of decentralization.

It would not be taking advantage of the system, it would be the system 😊 Plus it would be a Paretum optimum : total utility is maximized when everybody maximizes his own utility.

Ok Im joking with using extremes but it makes sense

[franky1]

first of all it seems you have fallen into the media trap of hating people that are not wealthy, lucky, skilled, fully abled.
seems you think people with disabilities, back luck, are nasty and undeserving.

also if you think your 50% tax goes to unemployed people then you have fallen for the media FUD yet again

here in the UK they generate 200billion in just income tax, (£500b-£700b all tax revenues combined)
do you know how much actually goes towards unemployment..

here is the math of basic unemployment allowance
~£75 a week = £3900 a year * 1.3m people =£5,070,000,000
ontop of that is housing allowance which is pretty much the same

so call it an average £10.14billion

yep £10billion out of £200billion of just income tax..
thats not even 6%.. no where near 50%

so if you are paying 50% tax(all different taxes from income to spending over a year including every tax like sales tax etc when you buy something)
that is not 50% going to the unemployed. that is just 2%

yep 2% of your wealth not 50%

what you have fallen into the trap of is called the cookie game
imagine there are 200 cookies and 100 people made them with their hard work

a tax man eats takes 100 cookies and gives 10 cookies to the military, many dozens to the private sector. a couple dozen to the public sector and then walks upto you and says.. you see them 2 poor people eating them 2 cookies.. they stole your cookie.
they try desperately to not tell you how many dozens went to the private sector.

[darkv0rt3x]

if you think your 50% tax goes to unemployed people then you have fallen for the media FUD

He didn't say that. He said that he pays 50% of his income for taxes, not for unemployment! Then some of those 50% will in fact go for unemployment support. Maybe your numbers are correct, I don't doubt, but that's not what he said, about the 50% taxes.

Where I live, there were some stats a couple years ago (now, I'm sure it's worse), that we only start making money for ourselves after the 7th month of the year. Until there, everything we earn is for taxes, so, I believe that it might be even more than 50% of taxes that we end up paying, globally speaking! And I live in the EU.

[sbrys]

if you think your 50% tax goes to unemployed people then you have fallen for the media FUD

here in the UK they generate 200billion in just income tax, (£500b-£700b all tax revenues combined)
do you know how much actually goes towards unemployment..

here is the math of basic unemployment allowance
£75 a week = £3900 a year * 1.3m people =£5,070,000,000
ontop of that is housing allowance which is pretty much the same

so call it an average £10.14billion

yep £10billion out of £200billion of just income tax..
thats not even 6%.. no where near 50%

so if you are paying 50% tax(all different taxes from income to spending over a year including every tax like sales tax etc when you buy something)
that is not 50% going to the unemployed. that is just 2%

yep 2% of your wealth not 50%

what you have fallen into the trap of is called the cookie game
imagine there are 200 cookies and 100 people made them with their hard work

a tax man eats takes 100 cookies and gives 10 cookies to the military, many dozens to the private sector. a couple dozen to the public sector and then walks upto you and says.. you see them 2 poor people eating them 2 cookies.. they stole your cookie.

Where did I say it all goes to unemployment support 😁 Our unemployment allowance is also a lot higher than the amount you mention : its about 1500€. Same story for pensions. When you know about only 40% of our population is active there will be a much bigger impact than 2%

But in the end it doesnt matter. I have to pay 50% to society. Doesnt really matter for what it is used, but I have no saying in it. Maybe marginally by elections 😊

[sbrys]

first of all it seems you have fallen into the media trap of hating people that are not wealthy, lucky, skilled, fully abled.
seems you think people with disabilities, back luck, are nasty and undeserving

Man you have issues 😊

Im just trying to have a conceptual discussion…

[noorman0]

-snip-
Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

The new system should provide many options so that people are free to get out of "suffering".

I believe more that the world economic order will experience a new revolution that is faster in terms of flexibility and freedom.
And freedom here doesn't mean you have to choose between them, both centralized and non-centred will cover their failures with each other. So you won't really suffer if you combine the two systems in order to really get the "freedom".

[sbrys]

-snip-
Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

The new system should provide many options so that people are free to get out of "suffering".

I believe more that the world economic order will experience a new revolution that is faster in terms of flexibility and freedom.
And freedom here doesn't mean you have to choose between them, both centralized and non-centred will cover their failures with each other. So you won't really suffer if you combine the two systems in order to really get the "freedom".

I agree the new system will provide many options but I’m not sure if everybody will have enough to offer to this system

For example what will prevent lowering minimum wage for ‘unskilled’ labour. There will be tons of supply lowering the reward.

In essence freedom will not benefit everybody otherwise it wouldnt be full freedom

[Pmalek]

There are always ways and means to avoid paying taxes, especially if we are talking about cash transactions and P2P deals. We all decide if we want to pay those taxes or not. If you leave digital fingerprints for monetary transactions, you could get caught and questioned. If you don't, the chances are significantly smaller.

I think we should stop dreaming about a Bitcoin society that replaces all traditional institutions and instruments of power we have today. Let's just hope Bitcoin's development goes nicely and in the interest of its holders. It's an economy that works independently. A sidechain to traditional finance if you want. I am not dreaming of a world where the governments won't tax people at all because they are using Bitcoin only. All countries need those revenues and rely on it. Chaos would ensue otherwise. A world-wide mining ban is a more likely scenario (although highly unlikely itself) than the governments giving up on taxing their citizens.       

[sbrys]

There are always ways and means to avoid paying taxes, especially if we are talking about cash transactions and P2P deals. We all decide if we want to pay those taxes or not. If you leave digital fingerprints for monetary transactions, you could get caught and questioned. If you don't, the chances are significantly smaller.

I think we should stop dreaming about a Bitcoin society that replaces all traditional institutions and instruments of power we have today. Let's just hope Bitcoin's development goes nicely and in the interest of its holders. It's an economy that works independently. A sidechain to traditional finance if you want. I am not dreaming of a world where the governments won't tax people at all because they are using Bitcoin only. All countries need those revenues and rely on it. Chaos would ensue otherwise. A world-wide mining ban is a more likely scenario (although highly unlikely itself) than the governments giving up on taxing their citizens.       

I also think it’s quite unlikely but I don’t think governments would have a choice if the theoretical case of a decentralized society would happen. They would need to accept the new reality and need to look for new models.

[franky1]

if you think your 50% tax goes to unemployed people then you have fallen for the media FUD

here in the UK they generate 200billion in just income tax, (£500b-£700b all tax revenues combined)
do you know how much actually goes towards unemployment..

here is the math of basic unemployment allowance
£75 a week = £3900 a year * 1.3m people =£5,070,000,000
ontop of that is housing allowance which is pretty much the same

so call it an average £10.14billion

yep £10billion out of £200billion of just income tax..
thats not even 6%.. no where near 50%

so if you are paying 50% tax(all different taxes from income to spending over a year including every tax like sales tax etc when you buy something)
that is not 50% going to the unemployed. that is just 2%

yep 2% of your wealth not 50%

what you have fallen into the trap of is called the cookie game
imagine there are 200 cookies and 100 people made them with their hard work

a tax man eats takes 100 cookies and gives 10 cookies to the military, many dozens to the private sector. a couple dozen to the public sector and then walks upto you and says.. you see them 2 poor people eating them 2 cookies.. they stole your cookie.

Where did I say it all goes to unemployment support

But in the end it doesnt matter. I have to pay 50% to society. Doesnt really matter for what it is used, but I have no saying in it. Maybe marginally by elections 😊

by the context of your topic. you are only talking about unemployment and using them as your target.
out of all the possible targets if you were to work out possible % of your tax amounts.. you seemed to have picked unemployment as the target, which is odd in of itself.

you also think that if you made special arrangements with your employer you can avoid paying into unemployment.

you never mentioned the military, or pensions or public services like police and fire. or road/bridge repair, or
national forest/conservation area, or reservoir/water/river maintenance.  you made it specifically a target of honing in on unemployment, mentioning it several times as your gripe of your 50%

yes i agree you never said exact words of unemployment is 50% of your income. but you insinuate it by associating unemployment as your main concern of tax burden

i see many people do this all the time thinking that its the unemployed that are sucking money out of the system
(i personally do not take nor ever have taken unemployment) but when there are bigger budgets being wasted through tax grants and R&D of private businesses, i just find it silly that someone wants to bring up the unemployed as their tax burden

here is a quick lesson for you.
there will always be a tax, even if everyone was employed. even if there was a job for all disabled people. even if citizens voted in a bunch of politicians and those politicians voted in to privatise fire and police and got rid of all public sector roles. a government will still find something to tax you
in fact they would probably tax you more heavier.

i personally would prefer the tax money to go to the poor and needy. like a social security/insurance for times where we have bad luck and become unemployed due to no fault of our own. rather then see our taxes being wasted on new cars and posh lunches for politicians and their private corporate buddies.. but thats just me..
my main frustration of a topic like this is that mindset that the poor should be left to fend for themselves while the rich get richer.
we recently had the treasurer himself allow his own wife to tax evade by a couple billion pounds. and then had the audacity to then tell everyone that there were not a couple billion in the treasury spare to uplift the poverty line by just £20.. yep his own wifes tax if she paid it would have covered the uplift of milions of people. just one woman tax avoidance  amount.

[sbrys]

if you think your 50% tax goes to unemployed people then you have fallen for the media FUD

here in the UK they generate 200billion in just income tax, (£500b-£700b all tax revenues combined)
do you know how much actually goes towards unemployment..

here is the math of basic unemployment allowance
£75 a week = £3900 a year * 1.3m people =£5,070,000,000
ontop of that is housing allowance which is pretty much the same

so call it an average £10.14billion

yep £10billion out of £200billion of just income tax..
thats not even 6%.. no where near 50%

so if you are paying 50% tax(all different taxes from income to spending over a year including every tax like sales tax etc when you buy something)
that is not 50% going to the unemployed. that is just 2%

yep 2% of your wealth not 50%

what you have fallen into the trap of is called the cookie game
imagine there are 200 cookies and 100 people made them with their hard work

a tax man eats takes 100 cookies and gives 10 cookies to the military, many dozens to the private sector. a couple dozen to the public sector and then walks upto you and says.. you see them 2 poor people eating them 2 cookies.. they stole your cookie.

Where did I say it all goes to unemployment support

But in the end it doesnt matter. I have to pay 50% to society. Doesnt really matter for what it is used, but I have no saying in it. Maybe marginally by elections 😊

by the context of your topic. you are only talking about unemployment and using them as your target.
you also think that if you made special arrangements with your employer you can avoid paying into unemployment.

you never mentioned the military, or pensions or public services like police and fire. you made it about unemployment

i see many people do this all the time thinking that its the unemployed that are sucking money out of the system
(i personally do not take nor ever have taken unemployment) but when there are bigger budgets being wasted through tax grants and R&D of private businesses, i just find it silly that someone wants to bring up the unemployed as their tax burden

here is a quick lesson for you.
there will always be a tax, even if everyone was employed. even if there was a job for all disabled people. even if citizens voted in a bunch of politicians and those politicians voted in to privatise fire and police and got rid of all public sector roles. a government will still find something to tax you
in fact they would probably tax you more heavier.

I also said I was simplifying things. The whole essence of my post was to indicate that some of the big supporters don’t fully understand what they are cheering for and what implications would be. It was never about looking down on people.

It really seems you are just assuming what I want to say while you are completely incorrect. A wise man I used to know once said to me : assume is a fools perfume 😁

Also thanks for the quick lesson, very impressive. I see that I was apparently also shooting at disabled people. Probably in a few posts I will be a Nazi…

Very unfortunate you can not have this type of theoretical discussions over here without being called names…

[franky1]

There are always ways and means to avoid paying taxes, especially if we are talking about cash transactions and P2P deals. We all decide if we want to pay those taxes or not. If you leave digital fingerprints for monetary transactions, you could get caught and questioned. If you don't, the chances are significantly smaller.

many countries have many tax loopholes. the main one is loans.
so allow your forum pseudonym to loan(personal loan) your real life name a 0% interest with a 100 year repayment plan of £0.01 with no penalty for non-payment.

as for

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.
....
Basically stronger people will become stronger and people suffering will suffer more.

very much sounds like you want the rich to get rich and the poor to just die off

if you dont care for the poor. then yes expect some people to call you out on it.
there are alot of anti-capitalists in bitcoin. as that was the whole point. to get away from elitism

by the way capitalism is not where everyone gets rich.. thats the fantasy tail the rich tell poor people when rich ask the poor to hand over their money.
capitalism is the myth that if you work harder and scrub them toilets or flip those bugers better you too can be a king of a kingdom one day..
do you think clintons or trump ever scrubbed a toilet or flipped a burger or done manual labour ever in their life..
capitalsim is the fairy tale dream of hope without promise.

capitalism is actually in simple terms.. the bigger character comes first. literally. and the smallest character . comes last

[tadamichi]

Something that always strikes me is that people underestimate the impact of a decentralized world. Especially more vulnerable people that depend on society for ‘survival’.

I don’t think decentralization will spread over to any aspect of society, you will still need government services for most things:

• Healthcare.
• Police.
• Jurisdiction.
• Education.
• Military(no military only works, if no other countries has it, but if one country starts building militaries again, the others have to do it too, or they can be conquered easily).
• Social services.
• Basically everything the government is now doing too.

Except if they loose their monopoly over money, it could actually make societies more strong again and where decentralization really brings in huge benefits.

- my connection with an employer will be direct and I will pay no taxes —> I have a choice

It’s the same now in most countries, your employer will probably deduct taxes beforehand and you will only get the taxed amount payed out. Just like now, because otherwise the state would start closing their business. The difference with decentralized money will be: No one can confiscate your already taxed money, or make it worthless over time. This is huge, if people had this in the past, the whole course of history would probably have been different.

- No support for unemployment. Maybe this will stimulate more people to work but will also create some issues

They will tax people, there’s a saying: only two things are certain, taxes and death. Even if the state looses their power temporarily and a vacuum forms, after some time a new state will probably form again. We can’t escape this.