I found a paper wallet on a beach ... seriously

[virasog]

So in the argument discussed in this topic, OP picking up a paper wallet worth 0.6btc, is this a theft scenario? because if we look at OP's story, he wants to return it to the real owner but he doesn't know how.

And I think it will be difficult to return it to the real owner because many opportunists will pretend that the paper wallet is theirs. Then for crypto enthusiasts, we know that Bitcoin is not fake money, because it can be converted into real money, not just touched physically.

Nah, I'm talking theoretically since I'm talking about the morality of something rather than this specific occasion. It was pretty much summed up that there was no theft, and some users speculated that this could've been a scam attempt, which it might have well been. However, I wanted to reference that this is actually a really difficult situation to be in, and personally I don't know what I would've done. Like I said above, I probably wouldn't have even checked if the wallet had any Bitcoin in it, which could've been a waste of my time trying to find a owner of a wallet that has nothing in it.

It would be difficult to find the real owner, which encourages people to take the Bitcoin for themselves, which again isn't ideal.

First of all, if you did not try to check how much bitcoin it contained in that paper wallet, then what would you have done ?
You have just left the paper wallet on the beach so that any other person can find it and enjoy this free money or would you have destroyed the paper wallet making the bitcoin supply less by 0.6BTC

It would be difficult to find the real owner, which encourages people to take the Bitcoin for themselves, which again isn't ideal.

I think in such a scenario it is impossible to find the real owner of the bitcoin and it is also not our money, so whoever gets that money he can use it for charity purposes.

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[Synchronice]

So in the argument discussed in this topic, OP picking up a paper wallet worth 0.6btc, is this a theft scenario? because if we look at OP's story, he wants to return it to the real owner but he doesn't know how.

And I think it will be difficult to return it to the real owner because many opportunists will pretend that the paper wallet is theirs. Then for crypto enthusiasts, we know that Bitcoin is not fake money, because it can be converted into real money, not just touched physically.

What's the point of not taking the paper wallet in this scenario? If you don't take, someone else will take. At least, OP had a kind intention at first and that's so rare that it worth to bold it.
There are ways to prove the ownership. Maybe the owner had imported keys into his wallet and would be able to sign a message to prove the ownership or maybe he would be able to prove that it was his address in another way:
Imagine, you lost a wallet but you have sent coins there from your Binance account. Owner could prove that by letting the wallet holder to safely sign into his Binance account via qr code scan.
Okay, there are ways if we truly want.

[Pmalek]

Like I said above, I probably wouldn't have even checked if the wallet had any Bitcoin in it, which could've been a waste of my time trying to find a owner of a wallet that has nothing in it.

I see no problem in checking if the wallet has any coins. I would have checked. If it was empty, I wouldn't bother trying to find who it belongs to. And hopefully, the real owner wouldn't deposit any bitcoins on it without realizing it is gone. If it was funded, then I would try to find the owner in a few different ways.   

You have just left the paper wallet on the beach so that any other person can find it and enjoy this free money or would you have destroyed the paper wallet making the bitcoin supply less by 0.6BTC

Neither one nor the other. Taking a possibly valuable item (without the intention of using it or profiting from it) isn't the same as stealing it. You are saving it from people who might have other intentions. You are also saving it from water and weather conditions that could destroy it if you just left it there. It's only stealing if you transfer the BTC to yourself or keep quiet about it without doing anything to find who they belong to.

[Welsh]

I see no problem in checking if the wallet has any coins. I would have checked. If it was empty, I wouldn't bother trying to find who it belongs to. And hopefully, the real owner wouldn't deposit any bitcoins on it without realizing it is gone. If it was funded, then I would try to find the owner in a few different ways.    

Yeah, I know a lot of users would be comfortable with that, and I'm not saying it's wrong for them to do that. I just personally wouldn't be comfortable doing that. It's almost sticking my noses into someone else's business, without having any sort of right to do so. It's hard because if you find it on a beach or a secluded area, you basically have no one to contact or give it too, and like I said even the act of giving it to someone could potentially compromise it. That's why I like the moral dilemma, it's very similar to the train track dilemma, basically whatever you do or don't do has some sort of consequence.

If it was at an event, you'd normally just give it to the event organisers, but you're kind of relying on them to be trustworthy themselves, which you can't always do. Handing it to the Police is probably your best bet, but I know a lot of users would be uncomfortable with that also.

[Pmalek]

It's almost sticking my noses into someone else's business, without having any sort of right to do so.

I don't disagree, but it's important to remember that Bitcoin uses a public ledger and everyone can stick their noses anywhere they like on the blockchain. It's built into the protocol and is an integral part of Bitcoin. My comfort zone ends where the signing keys begin. That's the thing that is supposed to remain private and which me and you shouldn't have access to. But as long as it's public info, I don't feel like I would be deanonymizing anyone or anything.

[BlackHatCoiner]

It's only stealing if you transfer the BTC to yourself or keep quiet about it without doing anything to find who they belong to.

How's being quite without moving the money stealing? If somebody owns that money, and does have a backup as well, taking it and hiding it somewhere in your place gives him the opportunity to figure out he lost the paper wallet, and that he must move the funds as soon as possible. If he doesn't own a backup, the money are donated to everyone-- in the same manner as if you burned a banknote.

Handing it to the Police is probably your best bet

The Police is the best bet? Come on guys, be more confident with yourselves. I'm sure I'd make a better try than the Police would on finding the owner. I wouldn't even trust handing over a private key in the police department.

[Pmalek]

How's being quite without moving the money stealing? If somebody owns that money, and does have a backup as well, taking it and hiding it somewhere in your place gives him the opportunity to figure out he lost the paper wallet, and that he must move the funds as soon as possible.

The act itself is not stealing. The intention of what you are going to do later might be. If you want to do the right thing or try to do the right thing, why would you keep quiet about it? The owner maybe only has that one copy. If you remained quiet, how would they ever know that someone found it?

Think of something else instead of a bitcoin paper wallet.
I find a watch on the beach. I take it home with me, put it in my drawer, and decide not to do anything about it. I might not wear the watch, I haven't sold it or exchanged it for something else, but I took possession of it and it's currently in my control.

[PrivacyG]

The Police is the best bet? Come on guys, be more confident with yourselves. I'm sure I'd make a better try than the Police would on finding the owner. I wouldn't even trust handing over a private key in the police department.

Agreed.  There are so many ways this could go wrong.  And then you think about it more and by giving it to a stranger, be it even a police man, you are just letting some body else take the funds and pretend it was not them.

Imagine giving a piece of paper to a police man and telling them you found it somewhere.  They will either laugh and throw it away or, if police is corrupt like in my country, they may even steal the funds on it.

I mean, Bitcoin is one of the few things you can steal any time and pretend you have not.  Give me a Private Key with some balance and after I take the funds out, how do you plan to prove it was me?

The conclusion of this story is probably that unless the owner of the lost Paper Wallet proves it was theirs and gets their funds back, there is no moral way of solving this problem.

In fact.  Even by taking the Paper Wallet with good intentions and not sweeping funds off it you are still possibly doing something wrong.  What if the initial owner finally remembers where the Paper Wallet may have been and goes back to the shore looking for it.  Then they find nothing on the beach because some body else took it beforehand.

So you leave it there.  But then some body else will likely take it.  This can go so many ways.  Maybe it is a kid and they are going to rip it apart.  Maybe it is some body who finds out it contains value and sweeps off the funds.  Maybe they just collect waste and give zero F's about what that paper may actually be, collecting it for recycling.

So what do you do.  Do you sweep it and hold on to it until the owner eventually some how finds this thread and proves it was them?  Then what happens if the owner never comes back.  Are you allowed to use the funds through the finders keepers rationality?

Also.  If you sweep funds.  What if one year from now the owner finds their Bitcoin Address, checks it out on a Bitcoin Explorer and sees their funds are gone so they give up immediately thinking there is no way they can get that back anyway.

Like I said.  Unless the real owner gets their hands back on the piece of paper, any 'solution' is surrounded by immorality.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[n0nce]

It's hard because if you find it on a beach or a secluded area, you basically have no one to contact or give it too, and like I said even the act of giving it to someone could potentially compromise it. That's why I like the moral dilemma, it's very similar to the train track dilemma, basically whatever you do or don't do has some sort of consequence.

Maybe it is even harder than that! There is much more uncertainty of the outcome, since private key can and cannot be backed up at the same time.


We must somehow mix the trolley problem and Schroedinger's cat to get a fitting image for this problem. 'Schroedinger's Bitcoin Trolley Problem'?

[Welsh]

The Police is the best bet? Come on guys, be more confident with yourselves. I'm sure I'd make a better try than the Police would on finding the owner. I wouldn't even trust handing over a private key in the police department.

I knew that answer would probably be controversial. The thing is, even moving the private key can be a problem because when there's no way of proving or finding who owns it. The person might come back to that spot, and try to find it. So, the very act of moving it or taking it could be morally wrong. However, then you have the issue of not moving it, and potentially allowing the next person to come along, and steal it. Giving it to the police, you assume they'll have some sort of moral decency, and influence, but probably not. I mean, they probably wouldn't know what to do with it, and you've already moved the private key at that point.

I'd probably trust myself more than the police due to the fact I know that I can trust myself to never take anything from the wallet, but I'm still not confident in moving it in the first place. I only said hand it to the police because of users who might read this, and I'm not sure I can trust many people to resist the urge. It's very easy for someone to go Ah, I've had this for a year now, and no one has claimed therefore it's mine, but I don't really agree with that either. So, I'll agree it probably isn't a accurate statement, since I personally wouldn't be comfortable with moving it at all, but then am I prepared to allow someone else to steal it when I could've prevented that? Tough decisions.

This is a massively complex problem, which doesn't have an easy answer that it might appear to have.

[n0nce]

The Police is the best bet? Come on guys, be more confident with yourselves. I'm sure I'd make a better try than the Police would on finding the owner. I wouldn't even trust handing over a private key in the police department.

I knew that answer would probably be controversial. The thing is, even moving the private key can be a problem because when there's no way of proving or finding who owns it. The person might come back to that spot, and try to find it. So, the very act of moving it or taking it could be morally wrong.

That's the one reason why I even considered myself that police would be an option. Because if people look for stuff where they lost it, and it is gone, they often proceed by asking the police or the local lost & found office. But the drawbacks (trustworthiness of police officers or any human, for that manner, not to take the coins) do outweigh the advantages in my opinion.

However, then you have the issue of not moving it, and potentially allowing the next person to come along, and steal it. Giving it to the police, you assume they'll have some sort of moral decency, and influence, but probably not. I mean, they probably wouldn't know what to do with it, and you've already moved the private key at that point.

There might be one alternative: take it and leave behind a note with your contact information so the original owner can reach out you and pick it up. If this note has the same shape, size and material of the paper wallet, you don't really change the 'situation' at all. It would have the same chance of being destroyed, blown into the sea, stolen, trashed as the original paper wallet.

[Welsh]

Yeah, that's the line of thought I was operating on. That if someone was looking for it, they'd automatically go to the police station, and ask whether someone has reported any missing pieces of paper or what not. That's the only reason I automatically jumped to that conclusion. However, I guess individuals in the police force might not be trusted with that kind of information.

There might be one alternative: take it and leave behind a note with your contact information so the original owner can reach out you and pick it up. If this note has the same shape, size and material of the paper wallet, you don't really change the 'situation' at all. It would have the same chance of being destroyed, blown into the sea, stolen, trashed as the original paper wallet.

Probably a decent solution to the predicament. Although, the person may not want to be linked to the wallet, due to privacy issues. Although, I'm playing devil's advocate there. I imagine most people would be grateful that someone went into the effort. Plus, a note could be left which doesn't give too much information away to random people who happen to be passing by. Good solution if you ask me. 

[n0nce]

However, I guess individuals in the police force might not be trusted with that kind of information.

Yes, there are both the options that they don't understand the value a paper wallet can have and not take it seriously (throw it away; 'Nobody will come asking for some piece of paper') as well as the opposite: taking out the funds and being able to plausibly deny it: the finder could have unsealed it, the original owner could have moved the funds, someone else with a backup...

Plus, a note could be left which doesn't give too much information away to random people who happen to be passing by.

Exactly; you can quickly create a new email address just for that purpose, for instance.

[Welsh]

Exactly; you can quickly create a new email address just for that purpose, for instance.

Well, n0nce it looks like you solved my dilemma. Who would've thought it would've been a simple answer like that. I was quite enjoying my thought experiment. It's probably the best idea to leave a note, especially if you know that you aren't going to take anything from that wallet regardless how long. I don't think everyone that stumbles upon it will have that thought process though. I know some users would consider it a donation, and wouldn't think twice about it. Then, you probably have users like me who will overthink the process.

It does somewhat prove though that lost Bitcoin in this type of situation is actually harder to return to its original owner than if it was fiat. There's very little ways to prove you own that Bitcoin once you've lost access to it, obviously by design.

[Pmalek]

It does somewhat prove though that lost Bitcoin in this type of situation is actually harder to return to its original owner than if it was fiat. There's very little ways to prove you own that Bitcoin once you've lost access to it, obviously by design.

If we assume the right owner contacts you, there are ways to prove it's their paper wallet. The wallet was funded somehow. Most people create their own wallets and fund them themselves. Check the blockchain and see what address the coins came from.

Ask the potential owner where the coins were deposited from. Then ask them to sign a message from the address that funded the wallet. Or ask them to send you a few satoshis proving they have access to that address. If it came from a friend or an exchange, prove it. Have your friend do the same. If you used an exchange, and you can no longer use that old address, there is a transaction history. Screenshots can be faked. Live video calls where you are logged in and refreshing your payments page on the legit website showing an outgoing transaction to the paper wallet address not so much.

[Synchronice]

Giving it to the police, you assume they'll have some sort of moral decency, and influence, but probably not. I mean, they probably wouldn't know what to do with it, and you've already moved the private key at that point.

It depends on the country, for example, I wouldn't entrust this to police forces of a country that has high corruption index. I don't even think it's wiser to entrust this job to any policeman or policewoman because even they can cheat in this case without punishment, it's not a bank account after all.

It's very easy for someone to go Ah, I've had this for a year now, and no one has claimed therefore it's mine, but I don't really agree with that either. So, I'll agree it probably isn't a accurate statement, since I personally wouldn't be comfortable with moving it at all, but then am I prepared to allow someone else to steal it when I could've prevented that? Tough decisions.

This is a massively complex problem, which doesn't have an easy answer that it might appear to have.

It's not that massively complex problem. Did you post on Reddit? Did you post on bitcointalk? Let's say yes. Did anyone came up with real proof that it belongs to them? There are a lot of ways to prove if you really want to and it's not only signing a message. If no one came and you waited for weeks, months, then what's wrong if you consider that from now on, it belongs to you? You haven't stolen from someone. Someone lost it, you tried your best to find the owner but owner did least to find you, then it belongs to you. You push yourself too much, you think like you are the killer if you tried to assist wounded person but failed to escape him.

[Pmalek]

It depends on the country, for example, I wouldn't entrust this to police forces of a country that has high corruption index.

I don't think it matters. Honest individuals work in police forces all over the world and the same is true for the worse type of scum on the planet. Would you consider UK's police as a trustworthy one, for example? In that case, you might be interested in knowing that one of their officers was convicted of raping and abusing women for over 17 years. Over 20 cases of rape. Several women complained but weren't taken seriously. The police always protect their own even in such situations.

https://www.euronews.com/2023/02/07/former-british-police-officer-sentenced-for-serial-rapes

[n0nce]

If no one came and you waited for weeks, months, then what's wrong if you consider that from now on, it belongs to you? You haven't stolen from someone. Someone lost it, you tried your best to find the owner but owner did least to find you, then it belongs to you. You push yourself too much, you think like you are the killer if you tried to assist wounded person but failed to escape him.

The issue with this line of thought has been pointed out in this thread, before. In essence, the reason it is immoral is because there are a ton of scenarios where the actual owner has another copy of the keys and expects the money to still be there when they try to use those keys in the future.
For instance, this paper wallet may be one of a few backups and they may not check the integrity of those backups regularly.

[Welsh]

It's not that massively complex problem. Did you post on Reddit? Did you post on bitcointalk? Let's say yes. Did anyone came up with real proof that it belongs to them? There are a lot of ways to prove if you really want to and it's not only signing a message. If no one came and you waited for weeks, months, then what's wrong if you consider that from now on, it belongs to you? You haven't stolen from someone. Someone lost it, you tried your best to find the owner but owner did least to find you, then it belongs to you. You push yourself too much, you think like you are the killer if you tried to assist wounded person but failed to escape him.

I think it's a massively complex problem. I'd hate to be in this scenario, and in fact it's one of the reasons I didn't like helping users with their lost passwords anymore, because it's hard to prove they aren't just giving you vague details in hope you can help them get into it. If you post on social media or this forum about someone losing the wallet, you're going to get people claiming to have lost it, and some of them might be able to decipher certain information if you've included it in the explanation. The best way of doing it would be to be as vague as possible, hey guys, found a wallet this weekend let me know if you've recently lost a wallet, and from there you can kind of filter out the users that are trying a shot in the dark.

However, it's still a massively complex issue, and ultimately the decision you make could be a wrong one without adequate proof. There's not a whole lot of adequate proof if they haven't got backups, and at that point they should just move the Bitcoin to another secure address.

Honestly, I think I'd hate to be in a situation where I find a wallet. I've handed physical fiat wallets, credit cards, and things like this into the police a few times or sometimes just the establishment I'm at. For example, a restaurant because the person might come back to claim it. However, that's easy to verify. Bitcoin isn't exactly easy.

P.S for those of you planning to lose your wallets in the future, please don't. Take good care of them, because I don't want to be in this situation, ever .

[LoyceV]

P.S for those of you planning to lose your wallets in the future, please don't.

Since we're now going towards the scenario of creating anonymous email addresses to leave notes to contact the anonymous wallet owner: just write your email address on your paper wallet. That makes it much easier for everyone involved
I don't think it's going to help though, you just shouldn't lose your paper wallet where someone else can find it. And considering I've never read about it (other than trying to scam people) about it, I don't think it happens often.

The only paper wallet I could easily lose, is the one I keep in my (leather) wallet. If I lose my physical wallet from my pocket, I lose my paper wallet. My wallet has enough bank cards in there to identify me, and the encryption on the paper wallet makes sure nobody can ever take my funds.