Occupy Round Table on Bitcoin

[bb113]

I guess just show me your data (not a youtube video or philosophical essay) and I'll try to find something wrong with it. If I can't then I will also be about RBE. Worst case scenario is I give my critique and we are both better off for it.

I understand what you're getting at and I have to admit that as far as I know, there are no scientific papers on RBE. If you look at it this way, it's true that the model is not scientific. The only excuse I can offer is that the general idea of an RBE has only really been talked about for a few years.

It hasn't reached the stage yet where we have scientific papers or an actual computer model for such a system. There have been plans for this but this type of development is slow. The best I have to offer is lectures or essays on this, or information on the latest technology (http://www.zeitnews.org/).

I have no doubt though that eventually the idea of an RBE will be put to the test, at least as a real computer model. And in real life as well, in form of a RBE village or city. It needs to be self-sufficient to not be reliant on trade, but even with some trading it can be done if there is funding for such a project. As long as we live in a world that uses money, we need it to create a RBE prototype.

So you have an hypothesis and would like to test it scientifically, but it costs a shitload (in money and mental activity) to actually do so. The majority of people with the money/power have no incentive in changing the status quo, so it is difficult to make happen. That is why it hasn't been done yet. Ok, so stop saying it is based on science then. Logic is also a good basis for making decisions. Just call it what it is. Hopefully, eventually someone with the ability to access the necessary resources will attempt to test the viability of a RBE.

My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.

Brain science is allowing us to understand how we think. Psychology is becoming well researched. Sociology and economics are less useful predictors of behavior.

I am not sure what this means... Please answer my earlier questions about why you believe human society is less complex than the human brain.

Human society is unpredictable. It's like asking why electrical theory is less complex than ToE. There is no sense on postulating theories with little more than correlative data. When we understand ourselves, we can begin to find a ToE for human behavior. That's a long way off. It's simpler to use accepted axioms. Society isn't really complex because it doesn't really even exist. Society is a reification. Religion makes society simple, even if the religion is science.

Even if we accept that people will act how their religion tells them to under normal circumstances, what about when something goes wrong?

What if your idea of sustainability, equality and freedom is wrong?

The whole idea is that the system is designed to improve itself automatically. The indicators we use today to see how an economy is doing are false, such as GDP. In RBE the indicators would be very different. We would of course have sustainability as one indicator and this includes a lot of things such as resource efficiency, energy efficiency, resource scarcity levels etc. But on top of this we would have population happiness, physical health, mental health, crime, education, innovation etc. These would be the guidelines we would use to improve the system. The things that really matter. If you don't agree that these things matter, then RBE is not for you.

Personally I 100% agree with this. I have just cannot think of a way to create an uncorruptable state, and have never heard/read a feasible idea by anyone else either. For that reason, I think any plan that relies upon centralized power will fail.

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

No one knows what is best for other people. But we can find out using science. Ask people, track their consumption and predict. It's not that different from the methods companies use today. They use science to create the products and distribution methods that best meet the demand of their customers. RBE is not all that different but one major difference is that in RBE there are no incentives to artificially create demand for products. Which will radically reduce consumption and improve both our lives and our sustainability as a species.

How will we test these methods without hurting people if something goes wrong? I.e if this were to be a funded experiment you would need an IRB to approve it. If you did it on your own it would piss people off and if you didn't have dudes with guns backing you up (IRB approval) you and your family could be harmed.

*edited grammar

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[bb113]

What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.

what???

[cbeast]

What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.

what???

Is imagination real? Maybe so in Imaginationland.
Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

[bb113]

What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.

what???

Is imagination real? Maybe so in Imaginationland.
Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

Receptors are proteins found in the membrane (boundry) of your cells, one type of cell is a neuron. receptors are there to tell the cell about its external environment such as when neurotransmitters and shit like that are around. This could lead to stuff happening within the neuron, for example, causing a neuron releasing its own transmitters to the next neuron in the network. A mirror neuron is one that is hooked up to your sensory organs to fire when you observe someone doing something... and that also fires when you do it yourself. I hope that makes sense.

[cbeast]

I acknowledge all that has been said. Pardon any rudeness on my part. I think all of you guys are nice people. I just hope you don't cease my property and businesses in the future.

I may consider building a Walmart where you live and will simply invoke eminent domain. You will be evicted, but with reasonable remuneration, of course. Talk to my lawyer. Capitalism Rulez!  

That isn't capitalism. That's state corporatism.

Harvey, you will never win this argument but I salute you for trying. Every time you refute a point, they refuse to acknowledge it and move on to something else crazy. Like the example I chose here, confusing corporatism with capitalism in an attempt to demonize capitalism. Bravo cbeast you crazy RBEer.

You can't have RBE without hivemind or force.

Your opinion. I missed the section on state corporatism in Macroeconomics. Eminent domain has been law long before Walmart.

[Harvey]

Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

This is when I begin to get really scared of you people.

[Technomage]

Personally I 100% agree with this. I have just cannot think of a way to create an uncorruptable state, and have never heard/read a feasible idea by anyone else either. For that reason, I think any plan that relies upon centralized power will fail.

RBE is not based on centralized power. It's a protocol we would use for arriving at decisions. The actual development and coding would all be done in an open way with everything open source. This way it's very hard for people to screw other people because everything is out in the open. It is a form of central planning but it's not a top-down system where certain people decide things for others, it's a system where the hierarchy is flat instead of top-down.

This means that people contribute based on what their qualifications are and what project they want to contribute to. No one is superior to one another but different skills would lead to different responsibilities. I do not claim that there could not be corruption in a system like this. No system is, and never will be, perfect. But I do claim that it could be much better than what we have now.

Getting the right qualifications for certain type of work would be more straightforward than it is now. All education is free of course and there would be a lot of flexibility. One could simply self-study and then pass the required tests and receive a certificate and then you would have the qualifications to participate in a project you like.

How will we test these methods without hurting people if something goes wrong? I.e if this were to be a funded experiment you would need an IRB to approve it. If you did it on your own it would piss people off and if you didn't have dudes with guns backing you up (IRB approval) you and your family could be harmed.

This is a good point, there are many obstacles to overcome. In case of a real life town experiment it would have to be done in a country where it's safe and legal to do so.

[cbeast]

Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

This is when I begin to get really scared of you people.

Science is hard, not scary.

[cbeast]

What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.

what???

Is imagination real? Maybe so in Imaginationland.
Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

Receptors are proteins found in the membrane (boundry) of your cells, one type of cell is a neuron. receptors are there to tell the cell about its external environment such as when neurotransmitters and shit like that are around. This could lead to stuff happening within the neuron, for example, causing a neuron releasing its own transmitters to the next neuron in the network. A mirror neuron is one that is hooked up to your sensory organs to fire when you observe someone doing something... and that also fires when you do it yourself. I hope that makes sense.

Thanks for the tl;dr

[bb113]

I keep thinking cbeast is a troll. They keep talking about things they clearly know nothing about. Sorry cbeast.

[cbeast]

Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

This is when I begin to get really scared of you people.

Science is hard, not scary.

Yeah, that's what you say when you shove SCIENCE up everybody's ass without their consent.

RBE in a nutshell:

When you turn 40, your doctor will probably do the same. Just hope he studied science first.

[bb113]

Personally I 100% agree with this. I have just cannot think of a way to create an uncorruptable state, and have never heard/read a feasible idea by anyone else either. For that reason, I think any plan that relies upon centralized power will fail.

RBE is not based on centralized power. It's a protocol we would use for arriving at decisions. The actual development and coding would all be done in an open way with everything open source. This way it's very hard for people to screw other people because everything is out in the open. It is a form of central planning but it's not a top-down system where certain people decide things for others, it's a system where the hierarchy is flat instead of top-down.

This means that people contribute based on what their qualifications are and what project they want to contribute to. No one is superior to one another but different skills would lead to different responsibilities. I do not claim that there could not be corruption in a system like this. No system is, and never will be, perfect. But I do claim that it could be much better than what we have now.

Getting the right qualifications for certain type of work would be more straightforward than it is now. All education is free of course and there would be a lot of flexibility. One could simply self-study and then pass the required tests and receive a certificate and then you would have the qualifications to participate in a project you like.

How will we test these methods without hurting people if something goes wrong? I.e if this were to be a funded experiment you would need an IRB to approve it. If you did it on your own it would piss people off and if you didn't have dudes with guns backing you up (IRB approval) you and your family could be harmed.

This is a good point, there are many obstacles to overcome. In case of a real life town experiment it would have to be done in a country where it's safe and legal to do so.

Ok, so is this in a post-scarcity society or not?

[cbeast]

Mirror Neuron Receptors are what invoke physiological emotional responses to what others appear to be experiencing.

This is when I begin to get really scared of you people.

Science is hard, not scary.

Yeah, that's what you say when you shove SCIENCE up everybody's ass without their consent.

RBE in a nutshell:

When you turn 40, your doctor will probably do the same. Just hope he studied science first.

I've refused designer vaccines for over 2 years now. I think I can do my own prostrate exams as well.

I don't need you. I don't need my doctor. I don't need your resource-based economy. I can take goddamn care of myself.

[Technomage]

To be able to imagine what kind of political system would be used in a RBE, one should consider p2p politics. Decision making would be something everyone can contribute to. Based on what you want to contribute to and what your qualifications are. All education would be completely free, so everyone can study and get the qualifications if they want to contribute to a certain project or job that requires it.

[bb113]

Will it be anonymous? Will you verify people's age somehow? What role would someone like cbeast be able to play your society?

[cbeast]

Will it be anonymous? Will you verify people's age somehow? What role would someone like cbeast be able to play your society?

What do you mean "be able to." There will be no government or police to stop anyone from doing anything. There will be no government to make anyone do anything. This is ridiculous. If you want to criticize RBE, go read the literature. Then maybe you can do something useful so our descendants don't choke on our poisonous waste. If you really don't give a damn, then I won't waste my time with you.

[Technomage]

Will it be anonymous? Will you verify people's age somehow? What role would someone like cbeast be able to play your society?

I don't know everything. Think about it yourself, how would you like it to be? RBE is not some fixed concept, it has certain core ideas that all RBE advocates agree on, such as using the scientific method, the importance of certain values and certain indicators as the core of an economic system etc. But none of the details are set in stone. RBE is supposed to use whatever technologies can at the time best help us reach our goals.

The point of the scientific method is that nothing is set in stone. It can always change when we get new data. It's all about experimenting, finding out what works. This is why it's important to be able to put RBE to the test, eventually.

[bb113]

Will it be anonymous? Will you verify people's age somehow? What role would someone like cbeast be able to play your society?

I don't know everything. Think about it yourself, how would you like it to be? RBE is not some fixed concept, it has certain core ideas that all RBE advocates agree on, such as using the scientific method, the importance of certain values and certain indicators as the core of an economic system etc. But none of the details are set in stone. RBE is supposed to use whatever technologies can at the time best help us reach our goals.

The point of the scientific method is that nothing is set in stone. It can always change when we get new data. It's all about experimenting, finding out what works. This is why it's important to be able to put RBE to the test, eventually.

I stated earlier that my issue with it is the need for centralized authority and that I do not know how to avoid the corruption of that authority. I have thought about these things long and hard and come to the conclusion that it would be more difficult to make such a system work than anything attempted by man thus far. So, while I am interested in discussing the concept, I would not want to take part in the experiment because I think the failure scenario could be really horrific.

[Technomage]

What happens when I don't agree with the decisions made? That's the part that concerns me. I'm all for an RBE as long as I can opt-out.

The decision making in a RBE is not the same thing as we're used to. We would use scientific method to arrive at decisions so no one is actually making a decision. The people are there to make sure the process is followed correctly. I've explained a lot of the process already in my previous posts. What needs people have as individuals are automatically taken into account in "decision making". It's one attribute among others.

If you don't like the decisions then that's too bad, it's doing the best it can. If you think the process itself is flawed, this can be fixed. Anyone can start a discussion or investigation into the functionalities of the system, just like Wikipedia editors can start a discussion on the validity of a Wikipedia article. It's no different.

But I have the feeling I won't be permitted to opt-out. Hey, at least you people will feed me though? And uhh... I'll be able to participate in the predetermined procreation periods with my recommended gene pairing partner, right?

Nothing is forced upon you. Sustainable breeding practices are an educational issue. This is evident even in the world today. Less educated countries tend to have a much higher population growth. In a RBE I would think that the population growth would be sustainable by itself, good education is all that's needed.

[deltanine]

Will it be anonymous? Will you verify people's age somehow? What role would someone like cbeast be able to play your society?

What do you mean "be able to." There will be no government or police to stop anyone from doing anything. There will be no government to make anyone do anything. This is ridiculous. If you want to criticize RBE, go read the literature. Then maybe you can do something useful so our descendants don't choke on our poisonous waste. If you really don't give a damn, then I won't waste my time with you.

I'll have to read up on this RBE stuff.  Do you have a good link that gives me an easy rundown?  If there is no gov't, what will this society be governed by?  Science?  I'm not getting it.