Dubai( Re: Bitcoin in Honduras' new charter cities)

[evoorhees]

That's extremely exciting to the extent that it starts occurring. Keeping my eyes on this.

A case study in similar rapid development would be Dubai's free-zones, which spurred the dusty town into a global city of over a million people in a decade.

The winning combination:
1) Zero or near-zero taxation
2) Respect for and protection of private property rights

I have no doubt Bitcoin will find its way into free Honduran cities if they develop in such a way!

[cbeast]

That's extremely exciting to the extent that it starts occurring. Keeping my eyes on this.

A case study in similar rapid development would be Dubai's free-zones, which spurred the dusty town into a global city of over a million people in a decade.

The winning combination:
1) Zero or near-zero taxation
2) Respect for and protection of private property rights

I have no doubt Bitcoin will find its way into free Honduran cities if they develop in such a way!

Dubai was built by slave labor held at gunpoint and is going bankrupt. Maybe Bitcoin will save it from impending bankruptcy.

[evoorhees]

Dubai was built by slave labor held at gunpoint and is going bankrupt. Maybe Bitcoin will save it from impending bankruptcy.

Where do you get your information? I lived in Dubai for two years.

A) There is not "slave labor held at gunpoint."  There are some unscrupulous developers who deceived immigrant workers, or renegged on contract obligations. However, this was a minority of developers and is indeed criminal. Most developers simply imported workers from Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan... paying them perhaps $10/day. Why would anyone agree to that? Because back in their countries they made $3/day. Many workers who immigrated to Dubai endured a very difficult job, but were able to send money home to their families and support them much better than if they stayed home, unemployed.

B) Dubai is not bankrupt. The gov incurred significant debt, but it is far less on a % of GDP basis than most countries around the world. Further, the debt was in many ways a good investment, as it turned the city into a thriving metropolis. The financial situation for Dubai is far better than America or any country in Europe. 

[Jered Kenna (TradeHill)]

Dubai was built by slave labor held at gunpoint and is going bankrupt. Maybe Bitcoin will save it from impending bankruptcy.

Where do you get your information? I lived in Dubai for two years.

A) There is not "slave labor held at gunpoint."  There are some unscrupulous developers who deceived immigrant workers, or renegged on contract obligations. However, this was a minority of developers and is indeed criminal. Most developers simply imported workers from Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan... paying them perhaps $10/day. Why would anyone agree to that? Because back in their countries they made $3/day. Many workers who immigrated to Dubai endured a very difficult job, but were able to send money home to their families and support them much better than if they stayed home, unemployed.

B) Dubai is not bankrupt. The gov incurred significant debt, but it is far less on a % of GDP basis than most countries around the world. Further, the debt was in many ways a good investment, as it turned the city into a thriving metropolis. The financial situation for Dubai is far better than America or any country in Europe. 

I've been to Dubai about 9 times mostly during the real boom and I'd have to agree with Evoorhees from personal experience. It wasn't any different than the majority of wealthy countries that outsource most of their labor. If you go to the middle east you're going to see Indian drivers and Philipino waiters etc. I got to know a few and they were all pretty happy to make a good wage (for them) and help their families. The are some shady stories but like Evoorhees said they're not the rule and every country has theirs the US included.

Jered

[cbeast]

Dubai was built by slave labor held at gunpoint and is going bankrupt. Maybe Bitcoin will save it from impending bankruptcy.

Where do you get your information? I lived in Dubai for two years.

A) There is not "slave labor held at gunpoint."  There are some unscrupulous developers who deceived immigrant workers, or renegged on contract obligations. However, this was a minority of developers and is indeed criminal. Most developers simply imported workers from Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan... paying them perhaps $10/day. Why would anyone agree to that? Because back in their countries they made $3/day. Many workers who immigrated to Dubai endured a very difficult job, but were able to send money home to their families and support them much better than if they stayed home, unemployed.

B) Dubai is not bankrupt. The gov incurred significant debt, but it is far less on a % of GDP basis than most countries around the world. Further, the debt was in many ways a good investment, as it turned the city into a thriving metropolis. The financial situation for Dubai is far better than America or any country in Europe.  

I've been to Dubai about 9 times mostly during the real boom and I'd have to agree with Evoorhees from personal experience. It wasn't any different than the majority of wealthy countries that outsource most of their labor. If you go to the middle east you're going to see Indian drivers and Philipino waiters etc. I got to know a few and they were all pretty happy to make a good wage (for them) and help their families. The are some shady stories but like Evoorhees said they're not the rule and every country has theirs the US included.

Jered

I wonder why they don't just employ workers from neighboring Arab countries for those jobs? Mexico pays workers low wages in their resort cities, but they are their own people. I wonder why they pay so little when they have such wealth and opulence? Perhaps in Dubai, Pinoys, Pakistanis, etc. are considered untouchables?

[edit] This is a personal issue with me and people I know working in Dubai. Nuf said.

[evoorhees]

I wonder why they don't just employ workers from neighboring Arab countries for those jobs? Mexico pays workers low wages in their resort cities, but they are their own people. I wonder why they pay so little when they have such wealth and opulence? Perhaps in Dubai, Pinoys, Pakistanis, etc. are considered untouchables?

[edit] This is a personal issue with me and people I know working in Dubai. Nuf said.

Well first, you say "why don't they" as if it's one big collective.  The property developers in Dubai are private companies, though some have ranging co-ownership by UAE government groups (the government there actually runs itself more like a business, generating profits instead of taxing the hell out of everything... it's nice).

But, any developer who hires a Pakistani instead of an Arab is simply making a rational profit-maximizing decision. The Pakistani is willing to work for less than the average Arab. They're not hired "because they're Pakistanis"... rather, they're hired for rational commercial reasons; the most cost-effective means of production will be sought out and utilized.

And you ask, "why do they pay so little when they have such wealth and opulence?"  Come on man... when you go to the store, do you pay what the bread costs? Or do you voluntarily offer to pay more? You, with your computer, are a wealthy and opulent person by world standards... so why don't you offer to pay more for things?

The same self-interest that you (correctly) exhibit is also exhibited by a group of people calling themselves a corporation. It's just a matter of scale, and until you offer to pay more than the minimum price for your bread at the store, it's hypocritical to chastise a company that pays the minimum price for labor.

[cbeast]

I wonder why they don't just employ workers from neighboring Arab countries for those jobs? Mexico pays workers low wages in their resort cities, but they are their own people. I wonder why they pay so little when they have such wealth and opulence? Perhaps in Dubai, Pinoys, Pakistanis, etc. are considered untouchables?

[edit] This is a personal issue with me and people I know working in Dubai. Nuf said.

Well first, you say "why don't they" as if it's one big collective.  The property developers in Dubai are private companies, though some have ranging co-ownership by UAE government groups (the government there actually runs itself more like a business, generating profits instead of taxing the hell out of everything... it's nice).

But, any developer who hires a Pakistani instead of an Arab is simply making a rational profit-maximizing decision. The Pakistani is willing to work for less than the average Arab. They're not hired "because they're Pakistanis"... rather, they're hired for rational commercial reasons; the most cost-effective means of production will be sought out and utilized.

And you ask, "why do they pay so little when they have such wealth and opulence?"  Come on man... when you go to the store, do you pay what the bread costs? Or do you voluntarily offer to pay more? You, with your computer, are a wealthy and opulent person by world standards... so why don't you offer to pay more for things?

The same self-interest that you (correctly) exhibit is also exhibited by a group of people calling themselves a corporation. It's just a matter of scale, and until you offer to pay more than the minimum price for your bread at the store, it's hypocritical to chastise a company that pays the minimum price for labor.

I wasn't going there, but you did. They are paying the going rate of people they know they can exploit. In the USA, people work for a minimum wage. It isn't much, but it's a lot more than $10 a day. People are free to live as they choose, not forced to live in dormitories. When I buy a loaf of bread, or clothing, or electronics, I try to avoid items that exploit and oppress workers. In fact, I buy very few material things at all. I do help people in impoverished countries directly, as much as I can while I endure my own burdens. Come on, man... why do you think they allow paying foreigners lower wages? What is your standard for a "minimum price of labor?" America "imported" laborers too, until the Civil War. I live with these Johnny Rebs that want to see the South rise again. Hate is alive and well.

[Harvey]

cbeast, why do you want to bar people with little skills from selling their labor at market rates? If they can guarantee themselves a job at 2 dollars an hour, why the hell not? You seem like the oppressor. It seems you rather see them starve on the streets looking for a job rather than having one at an equitable rate.

Problems only come when government restrictions inflate the cost-of-living so people with little skill can't afford to sustain themselves; that's the true crime.

[cbeast]

cbeast, why do you want to bar people with little skills from selling their labor at market rates? If they can guarantee themselves a job at 2 dollars an hour, why the hell not? You seem like the oppressor. It seems you rather see them starve on the streets looking for a job rather than having one at an equitable rate.

Problems only come when government restrictions inflate the cost-of-living so people with little skill can't afford to sustain themselves; that's the true crime.

Atlas, your arguments are as transparent as your pseudonyms. Back of the class.

This is what I love about Bitcoin. It brings out the true nature of people who love money. What they do not yet realize is that money people depend on fiat. Even gold can be controlled by power and guns because it is physical. Bitcoin will one day evolve beyond the electronic network that exists today. Bitcoin is an idea, and ideas cannot be killed. Where did I hear that line? Ideas themselves are useless without the people that create and build. We the people will choose to use our money smartly... eventually.

[genjix]

Tell me you're joking. Dubai is a hellish shit-hole. They foreign workers are abused and treated like slaves.

My father used to deal with property in Dubai and no way are they happy. They are forced into the crappiest situation. Many are starved, beaten or extorted. They have no due course with the law either.

Maybe the few forward facing workers packing bags at the mall are fine, but not the backend slaves. That's why Dubai has had numerous riots from the workers (who are jailed and then deported without anything).

The country is horrid for human rights. I hate the place and never want to go back. It's a gigantic artificial motorway complex with nowhere to walk and no natural beauty. Biggest hotel, biggest skyscraper, biggest shopping centre, biggest indoor ski slope, biggest artificial archipelago, biggest fake islands, and most retarded city built by uncivilised backwards sheep herders with more money than sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Dubai#Foreign_Workers_.26_Labor_Rights

[cunicula]

cbeast, why do you want to bar people with little skills from selling their labor at market rates? If they can guarantee themselves a job at 2 dollars an hour, why the hell not? You seem like the oppressor. It seems you rather see them starve on the streets looking for a job rather than having one at an equitable rate.

Problems only come when government restrictions inflate the cost-of-living so people with little skill can't afford to sustain themselves; that's the true crime.

If there were no restrictions on cross-border movements of labor, then they would be paid more and you would be paid less (assuming you are not highly-skilled).
On moral grounds, I'm sure that you'd be happy with your pay cut and increased unemployment probability.

[evoorhees]

Tell me you're joking. Dubai is a hellish shit-hole. They foreign workers are abused and treated like slaves.

I'm not joking. Certainly some people who visit Dubai hate it, and you're welcome to your opinion... it's a polarizing type of place. Personally, I loved it, although no place is without problems. Your generalization of foreign workers is problematic... certainly some have been abused by some developers. It's a minority, but of course thats what makes the headlines. Some abuse, I'll grant you, but "treated like slaves".... sorry, no. They were not captured at gunpoint from their lives in Pakistan and boated over on slave ships with chains and shackles and zero pay for all eternity. They were enticed to work by a salary that was greater than what they'd earn back home.

My father used to deal with property in Dubai and no way are they happy. They are forced into the crappiest situation. Many are starved, beaten or extorted. They have no due course with the law either.

I didn't say the laborers were "happy," although I lived on a bloc where eleven 60+ floor towers were being built 24/7. I walked among thousands of workers every day. In general, they were smiling, joking with their buddies, drinking Mountain Dew and talking on their cell phones. It looked like hellish work to me, but to call it "slavery" is pretty disingenuous. You are trying to hold them against a standard that you as a Westerner enjoy. These are people who come from villages without running water, and here they are in Dubai earning enough money to support their families back home, they have water, electricity, food, and an environment at least as safe as where they came from.

Maybe the few forward facing workers packing bags at the mall are fine, but not the backend slaves. That's why Dubai has had numerous riots from the workers (who are jailed and then deported without anything).

As I said, I lived on a block of towers with thousands of laborers and I was around them for two years. I could see them working on site, during their breaks, and coming and going. Not once did I see a riot or a single act of violence against any worker (isolated riots have occurred typically due to a developer running out of money and not paying the wages).

The country is horrid for human rights. I hate the place and never want to go back. It's a gigantic artificial motorway complex with nowhere to walk and no natural beauty. Biggest hotel, biggest skyscraper, biggest shopping centre, biggest indoor ski slope, biggest artificial archipelago, biggest fake islands, and most retarded city built by uncivilised backwards sheep herders with more money than sense.

To which human rights are you referring? Yes speech is curtailed, but not hugely. Yes, foreigners are treated more poorly than Emiratis. Yes, someone could get in serious trouble for illegal drugs. All of that I will not defend. However, unlike other "modern cities," Dubai doesn't routinely rob its population of wealth at gun point. What you earn, you keep. What is more of a human rights violation... Dubai which infringes on press freedom, or the US, which extracts wealth to pay for violence, murder, and pillaging of foreign countries? 

You call everything there "fake," but I call it man-made. Are you not sitting on an "artificial chair" typing on an "artificial computer"? Dubai has created a fascinating and thriving city out of what was a bleak desert 15 years ago. If skycrapers aren't your thing, fine, but there's plenty of beauty in Dubai, and for all the country's problems, it is doing many things right of which the rest of the world might want to take note.

[evoorhees]

I wasn't going there, but you did. They are paying the going rate of people they know they can exploit.

Define "exploit" and we can discuss it.

In the USA, people work for a minimum wage. It isn't much, but it's a lot more than $10 a day.

Actually, the minimum wage in the US is $0 per hour. It occurs when an employer decides not to hire someone because the government won't permit a mutually-profitable wage. I'm not sure if you feel good forcing people to pay higher than market-rate for things, but a "minimum wage" does not make labor more productive... it makes it unemployed. Why do you believe it's moral to forcefully prevent mutual employment?

People are free to live as they choose, not forced to live in dormitories. When I buy a loaf of bread, or clothing, or electronics, I try to avoid items that exploit and oppress workers. In fact, I buy very few material things at all. I do help people in impoverished countries directly, as much as I can while I endure my own burdens.

The workers aren't "forced to live in dormitories." They chose to move there from their grass huts without running water or electricity... you might just make the same decision.  I'm glad you try to help people in impoverished countries, that's commendable and I do as well. But, all the help you try to do is reversed if you're advocating a minimum wage for those very same people.

What is your standard for a "minimum price of labor?"

Every person's "standard" is different. Let people make their own decisions, freely and without coercion. I can tell you that if you mandated the minimum wage of America onto the workers in Dubai, they'd all still be back in Pakistan. I wonder if they would be pleased with you?

America "imported" laborers too, until the Civil War. I live with these Johnny Rebs that want to see the South rise again. Hate is alive and well.

Those were slaves, not voluntarily contracted laborers. Don't confuse the two, especially considering the irony that you're the one advocating the use of force on peaceful people. And if people in "the South" want to secede, who are you to force them not to? Isn't that like... slavery?

[cbeast]

You are not getting the point. It is very simple. The reason Dubai imports foreign workers to work for substandard wages and living conditions is because they believe the OFWs to be inferior races.

[evoorhees]

You are not getting the point. It is very simple. The reason Dubai imports foreign workers to work for substandard wages and living conditions is because they believe the OFWs to be inferior races.

Right.... as if the developers care about the race of the workers more than the price 

Actually, the Filipinos (OFWs?) in Dubai make considerably more than the Pakistanis and Indians. This is primarily because they are much better at English communication. Profit-seeking entities care about prices, not skin color.

[cbeast]

You are not getting the point. It is very simple. The reason Dubai imports foreign workers to work for substandard wages and living conditions is because they believe the OFWs to be inferior races.

Right.... as if the developers care about the race of the workers more than the price 

Actually, the Filipinos (OFWs?) in Dubai make considerably more than the Pakistanis and Indians. This is primarily because they are much better at English communication. Profit-seeking entities care about prices, not skin color.

You are a smart guy, but your slip is showing. Meh, the filipinos have been conquered by nearly every major empire. They are indeed educating themselves and are doing what they can to survive. They are not a most favored nation, so they settle for what work they can get.

The workers aren't "forced to live in dormitories." They chose to move there from their grass huts without running water or electricity... you might just make the same decision.

*chuckle* I wonder if those huts were in the brochure for the job posting.

[evoorhees]

You are a smart guy, but your slip is showing.

My slip is very well concealed, actually!

[Technomage]

I haven't actually visited Dubai but after reading this article, I will never again even consider visiting that wretched place.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

[cbeast]

I wonder how you guys have managed to not drown in your own self-righteousness.

Thanks for the content-free ad-hominem well deserving of nomination of the first annual Atlas Alpha Award™. Congratulations!

[deltanine]

Insane amounts of people are unemployed in Honduras, and in addition to starving every day, they are also immersed in an environment of deadly violence. They would love to have any kind of job, if it allowed them to survive, and meant they could keep their family in a safe place where they wouldnt be threatened with murder on a daily basis.

I hear they can find work in Dubai.