How micro payments can help to alleviate global poverty

[Kakmakr]

I travel for work a lot and I have worked on contract in 3rd world countries where poverty are very high. In most of these countries and specifically in the more rural areas, people are very poor and they lack the infrastructure and resources to have access to Banking services and/or the Internet.    (Some people even struggle to get electricity and clean water)

Now, most of these people rely on the land to provide them with an income... and they live in a constant "survival" mode.. where they live from hand to mouth.

Now, in Africa I have seen people using cellphones to make digital payments using a centralized payment method, called MPESA ...so even with very limited resources, people are still able to make transactions. (They charge cellphones with small solar panels and/or petrol generators for the community)

We (1st world countries) should find ways to make payments on Bitcoin easier and more user friendly, so that payment on ALL phones can be possible. (not just fancy smart phones)  

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

Let's brainstorm ideas to develop software that will tap into the opportunities that will enable micro payments on a global scale, so that we can pull in a forgotten section of the global economy.  

Do not give them fish... rather provide the hook ...line... sinker... and they will fish for themselves.

[NeuroticFish]

[~snip~] I have seen people using cellphones to make digital payments using a centralized payment method, called MPESA ...so even with very limited resources, people are still able to make transactions. (They charge cellphones with small solar panels and/or petrol generators for the community)

We (1st world countries) should find ways to make payments on Bitcoin easier and more user friendly, so that payment on ALL phones can be possible. (not just fancy smart phones)  

I use centralized payment methods (Revolut), I use mobile banking, and I use Bitcoin.
Sending money through centralized system is very easy, since the centralized system can always find simple ways to get in touch with its other users, and if a bad transaction happens, they can even undo it, since.. it's centralized. Compared to that, mobile banking is already overly complicated (even card payment is).

Bitcoin is - or should be - on the same level as mobile banking. You know the recipient addresses and you send an amount.
LN should be like credit card.

Now, as I said, centralized payment systems are much easier, no matter what we simplify. Giving them a centralized system based on Bitcoin is not really a step forward (not your keys, not your coins). And if we add on top the fact that Bitcoin comes with various fees (and I talk about conversion from/to fiat) and its price is fluctuating a lot... I am not sure it will help them. They don't afford to lose any penny.

[Despairo]

I think the problem isn't about the micro payments, but the third party platform that would bring together between the employer and employee. Most people especially third world countries doesn't have good mindset and lack of technology, so they're just think "working" is only related with local job. Even they ever work as a freelancer, there's no guarantee he will work for a long time since the employer usually only give one project. After that he will become an unemployment again.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

(They charge cellphones with small solar panels and/or petrol generators for the community)

That's interesting--are you saying there are places in the community where people can go to charge their phones with solar or gas-powered generators or that individuals own and use them?  Either way, it sounds like the places you're talking about don't have the most reliable power grid, if there's a grid at all.

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

You described the people you want to help as basically subsistence farmers, living off the land.  If that's true, I doubt they'd be able to do any of those tasks if they haven't had much of an education.  That said, I don't have a clue about what level of education they have; I'm just making an assumption.  I also seriously doubt anyone in a first world country is going to provide steady, reliable work like translation or spell-checking to strangers in a third world country.  That's just reality--especially since there are tools for both of those things readily available on the internet.

And if those farmers in Africa receive a micropayment of bitcoin, is there a good way for them to convert it to their local currency or to spend it?  Most exchanges that deal in fiat have minimum transaction amounts, which might be prohibitive in a scenario like you've proposed.

By the way, don't most people use smartphones nowadays, as opposed to the old-school flip phones?  I've read about MPesa in the context of the gambling problem among youth in Kenya, and from what I gather they're using their phones to place bets.  You can't do that easily with anything other than a smartphone.

[un_rank]

We (1st world countries) should find ways to make payments on Bitcoin easier and more user friendly, so that payment on ALL phones can be possible. (not just fancy smart phones)  

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

In my freelancing journey, I have found it to be increasingly difficult to perform tasks without appropriate devices, this would make it a challenge to accommodate users without smartphones, and this might just be a lesser issue.
The current platforms available like upwork, fiverr and the rest could be optimized to accommodate users from 3rd world countries better. And more skilled users should get paid adequately like their counterparts from other regions doing the same work.

Properly equipping the high skilled users with adequate tools, would empower them to create better systems for the less exposed citizens.

- Jay -

[NeuroticFish]

Properly equipping the high skilled users with adequate tools, would empower them to create better systems for the less exposed citizens.

While Android development allows one make his tools compatible with (very) old devices, those old devices may not even support the newest Google Play services, hence no need to spend the time.
There are many phone makers who sell pretty cheap devices having not too old Android - there the devs could work by making apps much less resource hungry (!) to acomodate to the cheap devices.
And if we discuss about "dumb-phones", then the apps are flashed with the OS, afaik, hence the devs cannot do anything.

So from what I see, it's not that much the devs can do, even with "proper tools". Still, paying more attention to the resources would be nice.

[davis196]

We (1st world countries) should find ways to make payments on Bitcoin easier and more user friendly, so that payment on ALL phones can be possible. (not just fancy smart phones)

Making payments with Bitcoin is possible on every phone, that has a browser. I have an old Nokia from 2014. It's not a smartphone, but it has a browser and it's theoretically possible to login inside crypto exchange accounts or online wallets, copy and paste a BTC address and click on the "Send BTC" button. Second hand smartphones will become cheaper in the future.
Phones that don't have a browser are pretty much obsolete and out of the market at this point. I don't know about other ways to make ALL phones Bitcoin friendly. Some crypto companies are implementing a "pay via SMS" feature. Perhaps this might help for mass crypto adoption.

[Kakmakr]

(They charge cellphones with small solar panels and/or petrol generators for the community)

That's interesting--are you saying there are places in the community where people can go to charge their phones with solar or gas-powered generators or that individuals own and use them?  Either way, it sounds like the places you're talking about don't have the most reliable power grid, if there's a grid at all.

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

You described the people you want to help as basically subsistence farmers, living off the land.  If that's true, I doubt they'd be able to do any of those tasks if they haven't had much of an education.  That said, I don't have a clue about what level of education they have; I'm just making an assumption.  I also seriously doubt anyone in a first world country is going to provide steady, reliable work like translation or spell-checking to strangers in a third world country.  That's just reality--especially since there are tools for both of those things readily available on the internet.

And if those farmers in Africa receive a micropayment of bitcoin, is there a good way for them to convert it to their local currency or to spend it?  Most exchanges that deal in fiat have minimum transaction amounts, which might be prohibitive in a scenario like you've proposed.

By the way, don't most people use smartphones nowadays, as opposed to the old-school flip phones?  I've read about MPesa in the context of the gambling problem among youth in Kenya, and from what I gather they're using their phones to place bets.  You can't do that easily with anything other than a smartphone.

You know.... a lot of these people has gone through a lot of hardship in their lives.. and they do not have all these petty issues that some people in 1st countries have. If you are lucky enough to have power in your building, then you must provide a service to the community around you. (obviously at a fee)

They share transport to the nearest town to buy food and to charge their phones, if the Spaza shop (Tuck shop) offers that service and to buy airtime. Some even provide a charging station or kiosk to charge your phone, but it is very expensive ...compared to 1st world countries.

The culture is a lot different to what some people are used to... so sharing your bed or car or household appliances... are not strange to them. (They also have something called "Black tax".... where the one with the job... will support any family member or members as a kind of payback for what was given to them) ....very interesting concept.

In any way.... they make a plan, no matter what their situation is... borrow...beg or steal... they get it done.    Oh, to answer your last question.... yes a lot of 1st world countries are dumping very good phones in 3rd world countries... so the phone quality are getting better and better over time. 

[$anounimus$]

I think this would be an interesting startup idea. Micropayments can really reduce poverty by allowing people to make small purchases with the easy interface of their mobile phones. Also, micropayments will help increase business as it makes transactions easier and enables global trade. Unfair payment structures result in high prices for downloading digital content which we may one day grab ourselves. Micropayments have the potential to change the world more than we can imagine.

[stompix]

Now, most of these people rely on the land to provide them with an income... and they live in a constant "survival" mode.. where they live from hand to mouth.
~
We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

Two problems
- Do you think somebody that lives off the land in the poorest regions of Africa will suddenly be able to do all these jobs and somehow even thus he has been capable of this he hasn't yet moved to the capital where he could have for sure got a far better pad job than living on the land?
- What makes you think that by simply getting a payment method the market for transition services for example will be able to absorb a few million people?

You probably know what happened to all the freelancer work and how revenues for the easy jobs have gone down the drain, if you have basic skills you're competing with hundreds and thousands for every single 2-5$ job that takes you all day long. No guy that has planted corn for 20 years and had not seen a computer before will be able to suddenly excel in python.

Do not give them fish... rather provide the hook ...line... sinker... and they will fish for themselves.

Nope, the first thing is to teach them how to fish, then they go work and earn money to buy a line and hook for themselves as nobody is going to donate 1 million laptops good enough for video editing like that, then they can start on their own. And we're back to square one.

[numaibtc]

[/quote]
Now, as I said, centralized payment systems are much easier, no matter what we simplify. Giving them a centralized system based on Bitcoin is not really a step forward (not your keys, not your coins). And if we add on top the fact that Bitcoin comes with various fees (and I talk about conversion from/to fiat) and its price is fluctuating a lot... I am not sure it will help them. They don't afford to lose any penny.
[/quote]

It is a hard question to solve without centralization. I am a fan of decentralizing, but decentralized systems are also really hard to understand and get access to, for many many people in the 1st world, let alone for other countries.

The solution can be bridging both worlds.

Do you know any projects working with this mindset?

[Lucius]

That's interesting--are you saying there are places in the community where people can go to charge their phones with solar or gas-powered generators or that individuals own and use them?  Either way, it sounds like the places you're talking about don't have the most reliable power grid, if there's a grid at all.

People in Africa have to be creative if they want to survive, and what is quite normal for people in the US or the EU is a big challenge for them. It's been a few years since I first saw mobile charging stations in Africa, and recently the topic was discussed in a Bitcoin discussion.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5408570.msg60679643#msg60679643

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.
...
Do not give them fish... rather provide the hook ...line... sinker... and they will fish for themselves.

It's easy to say, but I think it's much harder to do given the level of political corruption and the attitude of most of the world towards Africa. It is obviously in someone's interest that Africa remains an undeveloped continent for as long as possible, and that it can serve as a dumping ground for various waste (including that from nuclear reactors).

Giving people the ability to be more efficient in payment methods will not solve the problem because people should first be provided with normal living conditions, the right to free primary and secondary school, and fair and democratic elections. A poor man is still poor no matter what payment methods are made available to him, and a more than obvious example is El Salvador, where not much has changed, regardless of the fact that everyone can use Bitcoin in everyday life completely legally.

[Zlantann]

It's easy to say, but I think it's much harder to do given the level of political corruption and the attitude of most of the world towards Africa. It is obviously in someone's interest that Africa remains an undeveloped continent for as long as possible, and that it can serve as a dumping ground for various waste (including that from nuclear reactors).

Each time I come across ideas and innovation that support the growth and development of Africa, I am always interested. Africa needs all the help and support because its development process is becoming slower because of external influence and internal corruption. I always tell Africans that they are the people that would develop their continent because no foreigner would genuinely or selflessly contribute to the development of Africa.     

Giving people the ability to be more efficient in payment methods will not solve the problem because people should first be provided with normal living conditions, the right to free primary and secondary school, and fair and democratic elections. A poor man is still poor no matter what payment methods are made available to him, and a more than obvious example is El Salvador, where not much has changed, regardless of the fact that everyone can use Bitcoin in everyday life completely legally.

It is not everybody in Africa that is poor, some Africans can comfortably provide their basic needs and still have some extra funds to invest. Also,  we don't need everybody in Africa to come out of poverty before an innovative idea would be introduced. Development can start with few persons in a village and it would spread with time. It would be very easy for Africans to teach and introduce Bitcoin to their fellow villagers or countrymen. So when we have the opportunity to empower like 10 persons in the village that has the population of 10,000, we should not see it as a waste of time and resources. That 10 persons has the power and better opportunity to enlighten, educate and even empower the remaining 1990 persons.   

[amishmanish]

Exactly that's what I love about Bitcoin. If you see people are getting into Bitcoin because they can actually earn through it in an international arena. In African countries. Even a few dollars earning can get you a decent lifestyle and that's the main reason that in many less developed countries, the proliferation of Bitcoin is very high... Yes I believe we should promote more micro finance transactions

[Wexnident]

We should also find ways for people with those phones to execute tasks that will enable 1st world countries to pay those people with "cheap" micro payments. (Lightning Network) ...example : translation services / typing / spell checking / sorting of data etc...etc.

That would come to question whether people in Africa are even capable of being able to do those services. It's not exactly an environment where learning is readily available (afaik), especially since the majority don't have access to the internet, quick look-up indicated that only 22% of the country had access.(and even then, I'd still think it'd require a lot of work to transition them from being able to offer these services). Before giving them actual tools to prove their skills, it'd 100% be better to make them or let them develop it first beforehand.

[Lucius]

It is not everybody in Africa that is poor, some Africans can comfortably provide their basic needs and still have some extra funds to invest.

Of course, not everyone is poor if we take into account that there are always those who nevertheless have better living conditions and perhaps a better political and economic environment than most others. However, I looked at some recent research and 1/3 of the people in Africa live below the poverty line, and that number increased even more during the pandemic, with the fact that there are even 23 of the poorest countries in the world in Africa where there is extreme poverty.

https://issafrica.org/iss-today/africa-is-losing-the-battle-against-extreme-poverty

Also,  we don't need everybody in Africa to come out of poverty before an innovative idea would be introduced. Development can start with few persons in a village and it would spread with time. It would be very easy for Africans to teach and introduce Bitcoin to their fellow villagers or countrymen. So when we have the opportunity to empower like 10 persons in the village that has the population of 10,000, we should not see it as a waste of time and resources. That 10 persons has the power and better opportunity to enlighten, educate and even empower the remaining 1990 persons.   

I appreciate your enthusiasm, so although I believe that Bitcoin can overcome some problems that the average person faces in everyday life, it can hardly solve the problem of poverty that has its roots somewhere else entirely. I would really like that Bitcoin can be something that will enable these people to live a life worthy of a human being, and not that in the 21st century people die of hunger and diseases for which there are medicines, but there is no will to help these people.

[Hydrogen]

We (1st world countries) should find ways to make payments on Bitcoin easier and more user friendly, so that payment on ALL phones can be possible. (not just fancy smart phones)  

Flip phones may lack the computational capacity to decrypt seeds and execute basic operational security for a mobile wallet. Which could make even a barebones wallet difficult to implement.

I think it would be better to deploy a new minimalist crypto token specifically designed for flip phones. The processing load normally distributed to end user smartphones, could be shifted to the server. Allowing similar functionality on a flip phones reduced hardware specs.

Multiple users time sharing a single smartphone could be another approach.

Smartphone donations to africa might be a project worth pursuing?

[el kaka22]

Mobile apps man, mobile apps and nothing more. This is a valid tech that we already have, and people are still acting as if that it's something major that we can't see. Banks are trying to make sure that you can't do this, because the moment you do, it's going to get to a level where it's impossible to come back from. Have apps that allow shops to get paid, and have apps that allow people to pay with it, QR codes and all, that's enough.

I cannot believe that I am writing this for a millionth time. When we reach this level, the whole world would be using the same method, just like paypal but in a grand scale where you can use it not just on online, but in-person purchases as well.

[Haunebu]

I support your good intentions, but you need to look at the reality which is the fact that it isn't really feasible right now for such poor people to rely on cryptocurrencies like BTC etc due to the volatility factor, steep learning curve etc.

A better solution would be to help them gain access to more popular centralized, digital payment methods with simple learning curves and negligible fees.

[naira]

A digital wallet that supports or is compatible with lower phone versions. For example, in the past when I wanted to install a crypto wallet application but the condition of the phone was not adequate, in other words, it was not compatible with the device I was using. So here I hope that application developers can create digital wallets that can be accessed by the public there in general with the type of cellphone they hold.

Because today's technology is sophisticated and today's smartphone users don't have too many obstacles if it's only for transactions. The case may be with minimum fees and withdrawals if using an exchange platform. As for the micro income that supports digital transactions among the local community, it is quite difficult to accept. Because what they need is direct money without a third party that can cut the costs of sending and withdrawing.