Tornado Cash sanctions as the beginning of the end of privacy coins?

[ahmia39]

Tornado Cash is often used by some only as a legitimate way to protect privacy.
However, the US government says it encourages illicit activity, including fraud and cybercrime.

[Jawhead999]

Please let me know, how can one find and imprison anonymous developers? Let's try to play this action with Utopia p2p project, where no one knows whose child is it.

How it's can be anonymous if they included their company name on the bottom page? it's 1984 Group LP.

If you check on WHOIS there's some information about the sites revealed. I don't think this project is totally 100% anonymous considering they're closed source, no one can verify the legitimate of the code.

I think not many users are using Utopia and there's no such detective put all his effort to investigate this site to find the owner.

role: 1984 GROUP LP
nic-hdl: GL884-IS
address: 18/2 Royston Mains Street
address: GB-EH51LB Edinbourg
e-mail: 1984group@countermail.com
created: June 24 2019
source: ISNIC
role: NameCheap, Inc.
nic-hdl: NI231-IS
address: 4600 East Washington Street, Suite 305
address: Phoenix, AZ 85034
address: US
phone: +1 6613102107
e-mail: isnicdomains@namecheap.com
created: March 22 2019
source: ISNIC

[iamverybusyperson]

Without suspecting it, the authorities and regulators have created an artificial noise around private coins, thereby increasing their value People know that in any case they will have access to exchanges where these coins will continue to be traded. And that's great.

[Sethrey]

How it's can be anonymous if they included their company name on the bottom page? it's 1984 Group LP.

If you check on WHOIS there's some information about the sites revealed. I don't think this project is totally 100% anonymous considering they're closed source, no one can verify the legitimate of the code.

I think not many users are using Utopia and there's no such detective put all his effort to investigate this site to find the owner.

role: 1984 GROUP LP
nic-hdl: GL884-IS
address: 18/2 Royston Mains Street
address: GB-EH51LB Edinbourg
e-mail: 1984group@countermail.com
created: June 24 2019
source: ISNIC
role: NameCheap, Inc.
nic-hdl: NI231-IS
address: 4600 East Washington Street, Suite 305
address: Phoenix, AZ 85034
address: US
phone: +1 6613102107
e-mail: isnicdomains@namecheap.com
created: March 22 2019
source: ISNIC

What does the address give to you? Do you think it's impossible to fill in the random address or pay for the registration and never appear there? Have you ever checked that crypto can be used anonymously and everything can be bought and paid for? If there's still no data about the devs, it means no one ever found them. And I don't know the actual number of users, but number of nodes is more than 30 000.. Make your conclusions.

[iamverybusyperson]

How it's can be anonymous if they included their company name on the bottom page? it's 1984 Group LP.

If you check on WHOIS there's some information about the sites revealed. I don't think this project is totally 100% anonymous considering they're closed source, no one can verify the legitimate of the code.

I think not many users are using Utopia and there's no such detective put all his effort to investigate this site to find the owner.

role: 1984 GROUP LP
nic-hdl: GL884-IS
address: 18/2 Royston Mains Street
address: GB-EH51LB Edinbourg
e-mail: 1984group@countermail.com
created: June 24 2019
source: ISNIC
role: NameCheap, Inc.
nic-hdl: NI231-IS
address: 4600 East Washington Street, Suite 305
address: Phoenix, AZ 85034
address: US
phone: +1 6613102107
e-mail: isnicdomains@namecheap.com
created: March 22 2019
source: ISNIC

What does the address give to you? Do you think it's impossible to fill in the random address or pay for the registration and never appear there? Have you ever checked that crypto can be used anonymously and everything can be bought and paid for? If there's still no data about the devs, it means no one ever found them. And I don't know the actual number of users, but number of nodes is more than 30 000.. Make your conclusions.

It is enough to check this address on maps in order to understand that there is a residential area in this place in Edinburgh. It would be too stupid to use real data. Especially for developers of such a large-scale project. =)) lol

[Sethrey]

I think that privacy coins and mixing services are different. Those who use mixing services are usually used for illegal transactions and other crimes but privacy coins should only be useful for protecting the privacy of their users which not all bad guys should use.

I won't divide them like this. Criminals are everywhere in any case, and mixers are used by those people also, that want to simply hide their transactions. Like for example with Bitcoin. Or another way is using no kyc decentralized exchanges like Crypton exchange. It's just their choice.

[vv181]

I think that privacy coins and mixing services are different. Those who use mixing services are usually used for illegal transactions and other crimes but privacy coins should only be useful for protecting the privacy of their users which not all bad guys should use.

People use mixing services to tolerate the lack of privacy of the cryptocurrency design. They did it for various reason, but to claim that mixing services are usually used for illegal transaction are unproven. As matter of fact, cryptocurrency mixing services are only used by criminals by a small percentage. We can see based on Chainalysis research, that the usage by criminals is a few compared to the whole usage of a mixer. Take a look at https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-mixers/.

While in the other hand, a privacy coin being enforced/used to protect privacy is what the technology offers. But in reality, there will always be a consequence of it being used for wrongdoing.

[asriloni]

Tornado Cash is often used by some only as a legitimate way to protect privacy.
However, the US government says it encourages illicit activity, including fraud and cybercrime.

that's already proven. Bunch of hackers are using tornado for money laundering purpose. US already taken the right step to give it sanction and then arresting any parties who have relationship or become a part from the tornado cash.
People are always arguing about privacy but im not sure if they are not even seeing if the platform being used by so many criminals. Those who didn't like that to be taken down must be supporting the criminal as well.

[Abiky]

Recent U.S. sanctions against cryptocurrency mixer Tornado Cash have sparked a debate within the crypto community on whether the ban compromises users’ ability to operate anonymously.

Earlier this week, the Treasury Department imposed sanctions against Tornado Cash for helping hackers launder over $7 billion worth of virtual currency. The agency said the mixer service allowed cyber criminal groups, including North Korean-backed hackers, to use its platform to launder the proceeds of cyber crimes.

Does that mean that all the privacy coins will be banned and regulated? Even those having own no KYC decentralized exchanges, like Crypton?

First of all, Tornado.Cash is NOT a privacy coin but rather a mixer protocol built within the ETH blockchain. Second, the sanctions were only effective against the mixer's frontend interface (because it was hosted on a centralized server) and the GitHub repository itself. But they didn't have any effect on the smart contracts powering the mixer itself because of their decentralized and censorship-resistant design. We've seen how the US has been taking a strict stance against crypto/Blockchain tech, especially when it claims that most people use it for "illegal" activities (money laundering, tax evasion, etc). I wouldn't be surprised if the government takes further actions against mixers and even privacy coins themselves in order to help "legitimize" the industry as much as possible. Some countries might copy the US whenever they seem fit to do so. Others will simply turn their backs completely against crypto (like China and Russia) in order to stay in power.

What matters is that the whole space remains decentralized and censorship-resistant so that it can counteract governments' efforts against it. Centralization risks will only make it easier for governments to shut down the whole thing. While I do believe privacy coins and mixers will face further scrutiny in the long run, they won't disappear because of the way they're designed. Most (if not all) projects are open-sourced these days, so there's nothing stopping anyone from making forks in order to help protect our privacy. Considering that crypto has reached this far, I'd say it's too late for governments to do anything about it. Just my opinion

[sana54210]

I think that privacy coins and mixing services are different. Those who use mixing services are usually used for illegal transactions and other crimes but privacy coins should only be useful for protecting the privacy of their users which not all bad guys should use.

I think the problem is that you could never know the intention of someone who is using privacy coin or mixing services and that creates a problem. There could be many people who are not doing anything illegal and still using these services, and they can be allowed to continue, and there could be a lot of people who use it for illegal services and they could be banned from using these services.

But the end deal is, you do not know which one is using it for legal and which one is using it for illegal services which creates a big trouble for everyone involved. That is why people are trying to sanction and ban it completely, hurting people who did nothing wrong.

[Chlotide]

Privacy coins like Monero will be banned but privacy tokens like 0xMonero cannot be banned because they exist as assets on Ethereum and don't need to be traded on centralized exchanges.

But similar to tx from Tornado Cash, gov could force exchanges to orphan new ETH blocks that contain 0xMonero transactions. Since the grand majority of ETH mining nodes are on CEX it is not that far fetched. 
They banned a smart contract ! Newly mined blocks could be just around the corner

On the other hand Monero will live forever ! It's market value will suffer but the gov understood it cannot be stopped !

[Abiky]

But similar to tx from Tornado Cash, gov could force exchanges to orphan new ETH blocks that contain 0xMonero transactions. Since the grand majority of ETH mining nodes are on CEX it is not that far fetched. 
They banned a smart contract ! Newly mined blocks could be just around the corner

On the other hand Monero will live forever ! It's market value will suffer but the gov understood it cannot be stopped !

The US government didn't "ban" the Tornado.Cash smart contract because that would be practically impossible to achieve (the ETH blockchain is decentralized, after all). What they did was sanction the mixer, causing centralized service providers to shut down its GitHub repository and frontend interface. Without the source code and a web GUI where you could easily access Tornado.Cash, adoption would be virtually non-existent. Only geeks and crypto veterans would still be able to use the mixer by interacting with smart contracts directly. What the US government did is a precedent of what's coming in the future.

I'm afraid the US and other countries will exert more pressure against mixers and privacy coins, as they move an inch closer to launching their own Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs). After all, governments wouldn't want people using decentralized tech that would minimize their authority/sovereignty. It's possible privacy coins will stop being traded at centralized exchanges, while mixers will be outlawed for good. You'd still be able to use such services because of their decentralized and censorship-resistant design. But it wouldn't be worth the risk as you could face jail time or be required to pay a fine. It's a dark future ahead for crypto/Blockchain tech, so we should be prepared for the worst. Just my thoughts

[zasad@]

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/28/the-problem-tornado-cash-raises-about-base-layer-censorship-on-ethereum/
The Problem Tornado Cash Raises About Base Layer Censorship on Ethereum
Requiring validators and others to censor blocks would be an unwarranted expansion of sanctions law.

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/29/how-to-deal-with-tornado-cash-without-using-sanctions/
How to Stop Illegal Activity on Tornado Cash (Without Using Sanctions)
Rather than sanctioning code, U.S. authorities should have targeted the human intermediaries.

[jrrsparkles]

Recent U.S. sanctions against cryptocurrency mixer Tornado Cash have sparked a debate within the crypto community on whether the ban compromises users’ ability to operate anonymously.

Earlier this week, the Treasury Department imposed sanctions against Tornado Cash for helping hackers launder over $7 billion worth of virtual currency. The agency said the mixer service allowed cyber criminal groups, including North Korean-backed hackers, to use its platform to launder the proceeds of cyber crimes.

Does that mean that all the privacy coins will be banned and regulated? Even those having own no KYC decentralized exchanges, like Crypton?

Privacy coins will exist as long as the people using it, but there are chances for them to get delisted from regulated exchanges but never on decentralized exchanges. Coin mixers have to run very carefully and that is what we need to understand from the sanction.

[iamverybusyperson]

Recent U.S. sanctions against cryptocurrency mixer Tornado Cash have sparked a debate within the crypto community on whether the ban compromises users’ ability to operate anonymously.

Earlier this week, the Treasury Department imposed sanctions against Tornado Cash for helping hackers launder over $7 billion worth of virtual currency. The agency said the mixer service allowed cyber criminal groups, including North Korean-backed hackers, to use its platform to launder the proceeds of cyber crimes.

Does that mean that all the privacy coins will be banned and regulated? Even those having own no KYC decentralized exchanges, like Crypton?

Privacy coins will exist as long as the people using it, but there are chances for them to get delisted from regulated exchanges but never on decentralized exchanges. Coin mixers have to run very carefully and that is what we need to understand from the sanction.

Well, yes. That is why, when all the popular exchanges began to delist Montero, this coin was immediately added to many decentralized exchanges. For example, Crypton exchange from the Utopia p2p project.

[asriloni]

Well, yes. That is why, when all the popular exchanges began to delist Montero, this coin was immediately added to many decentralized exchanges. For example, Crypton exchange from the Utopia p2p project.

Liquidity problem must become the main concern once it happens. I know that people can use p2p but it's not as fast as when you are using centralized exchange site to exchange your privacy coin to the another form like stable token.
Remember that if it's not all decentralized exchange site was also supporting the monero coin. Monero must be wrapped first to be able being used in the decentralized exchange site.
I don't like use this coin for p2p transaction.

[Chlotide]

The US government didn't "ban" the Tornado.Cash smart contract because that would be practically impossible to achieve (the ETH blockchain is decentralized, after all). What they did was sanction the mixer, causing centralized service providers to shut down its GitHub repository and frontend interface. Without the source code and a web GUI where you could easily access Tornado.Cash, adoption would be virtually non-existent. Only geeks and crypto veterans would still be able to use the mixer by interacting with smart contracts directly. What the US government did is a precedent of what's coming in the future.

That's what I meant. And besides taking down the web GUI the obligated all the CEX they could to block accounts connected to Tornado Cash transactions. That is indeed a precedent, and a very dangerous one. The future doesn't look to bright if it goes the same route.

I'm afraid the US and other countries will exert more pressure against mixers and privacy coins, as they move an inch closer to launching their own Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDCs). After all, governments wouldn't want people using decentralized tech that would minimize their authority/sovereignty. It's possible privacy coins will stop being traded at centralized exchanges, while mixers will be outlawed for good. You'd still be able to use such services because of their decentralized and censorship-resistant design.

I doubt the US will issue CBDCs. That will truly show they lack of democracy and most important a transparency of money printing. Not so good for business.

But it wouldn't be worth the risk as you could face jail time or be required to pay a fine. It's a dark future ahead for crypto/Blockchain tech, so we should be prepared for the worst. Just my thoughts

Very dark, pessimistic projection but I have to say I feel the same way. Land of the free my ass !

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/28/the-problem-tornado-cash-raises-about-base-layer-censorship-on-ethereum/
The Problem Tornado Cash Raises About Base Layer Censorship on Ethereum
Requiring validators and others to censor blocks would be an unwarranted expansion of sanctions law.

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/29/how-to-deal-with-tornado-cash-without-using-sanctions/
How to Stop Illegal Activity on Tornado Cash (Without Using Sanctions)
Rather than sanctioning code, U.S. authorities should have targeted the human intermediaries.

My point exactly ! Long live POS and it's endless capacity to be leveraged by authorities !

[Abiky]

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/28/the-problem-tornado-cash-raises-about-base-layer-censorship-on-ethereum/
The Problem Tornado Cash Raises About Base Layer Censorship on Ethereum
Requiring validators and others to censor blocks would be an unwarranted expansion of sanctions law.

https://www.coindesk.com/layer2/2022/09/29/how-to-deal-with-tornado-cash-without-using-sanctions/
How to Stop Illegal Activity on Tornado Cash (Without Using Sanctions)
Rather than sanctioning code, U.S. authorities should have targeted the human intermediaries.

With Ethereum switching to PoS, it becomes easier for the US government to force validators (staking nodes on the Blockchain) to censor transactions related to Tornado.Cash. Considering that the biggest holders of ETH are centralized exchanges, "killing" privacy on the Blockchain should be a no-brainer. This would be the beginning of the end of ETH as we speak. So much for a decentralized platform built for "censorship-resistant" applications. I just hope other blockchains prioritize decentralization in order to prevent stuff like this from happening in the future.

Privacy is a human right, but governments are fighting against it for complete control. They intensify their attacks on crypto/Blockchain tech because it's something they can't control (decentralized). I guess we're going to have to turn ourselves to Monero for true privacy without limitations. Just my opinion

[Sethrey]

Privacy coins will exist as long as the people using it, but there are chances for them to get delisted from regulated exchanges but never on decentralized exchanges. Coin mixers have to run very carefully and that is what we need to understand from the sanction.

I think that all coin mixers will be banned sooner or later.. And the only way out for me is using no kyc decentralized exchanges as they seem not to be affected anyhow. Moreover, you remain anonymous there what is very important these days.

[Sethrey]

privacy coins should be unique coins but strangely they are also targeted by the government, I don't understand illegal transactions with privacy coins. Using privacy coins hides identity, but many illegal transactions using mixing services are unfair if privacy coins are subject to regulation.

Privacy coins have come under intense scrutiny from regulators around the world in a bid to crackdown on black markets fueled by privacy coins. Nowadays, privacy is especially important for owners of digital assets. No KYC - no control a user’s funds