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Author Topic: Libertarians(Re: Bitcoin in Honduras' new charter cities)  (Read 3491 times)
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December 09, 2011, 09:20:11 PM
 #21

Don't confuse all of us as libertarians. Some of are anarchists and prefer absolute power on an individual level. We don't believe in postive-rights because they can only be made by degrading the rights of others.

We don't compromise on our ideal of individual sovereignty. We hold all individuals as important and they should not be compromised for the whims of others whether the slavery be in the name of compassion or otherwise. In the end, the ends are just preferences.

You want something and you justify violence, robbery and slavery to make it happen. You think you "care for people" so you hurt others to help the people you prefer: That's socialism.
First of all, that's semantics. Libertarian views include everything you hold dear. I could just as well call that type "anarcho capitalist" but it's still a libertarian position, just an extreme one. Libertarian and anarchist are sometimes the same thing, but only the radical libertarians should be called anarchists. Libertarianism is such a wide concept. Did you know that originally the term was meant for libertarian socialism? It's a relatively recent development that libertarianism is associated with capitalist libertarianism by default.

The things you talk about, violence, robbery and slavery have nothing to do with what I'm advocating. There are many types of libertarian socialism and many of them have a strong non-aggression principle. I don't believe in a system that forces people to do something. Many people generalize that all socialist thinking is something, when it isn't. The width of socialist thinking is just as wide as the different views on capitalism.

In fact, one of the major issues I have with our current system is that people have little choice. We are still stuck on an idea that it's required for everyone to do work to make a living and pay their bills, when in fact we can use technology to create a type of society where only a small percentage must work. Eventually we'll get there anyway, but we could do it now, if we wanted to. This is the kind of "positive freedom" related issue I want improvement on and most capitalist thinking doesn't even understand that there's a problem, which is sad.

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December 09, 2011, 09:24:05 PM
 #22

Don't confuse all of us as libertarians. Some of are anarchists and prefer absolute power on an individual level. We don't believe in postive-rights because they can only be made by degrading the rights of others.

We don't compromise on our ideal of individual sovereignty. We hold all individuals as important and they should not be compromised for the whims of others whether the slavery be in the name of compassion or otherwise. In the end, the ends are just preferences.

You want something and you justify violence, robbery and slavery to make it happen. You think you "care for people" so you hurt others to help the people you prefer: That's socialism.
First of all, that's semantics. Libertarian views include everything you hold dear. I could just as well call that type "anarcho capitalist" but it's still a libertarian position, just an extreme one. Libertarian and anarchist are sometimes the same thing, but only the radical libertarians should be called anarchists. Libertarianism is such a wide concept. Did you know that originally the term was meant for libertarian socialism? It's a relatively recent development that libertarianism is associated with capitalist libertarianism by default.

The things you talk about, violence, robbery and slavery have nothing to do with what I'm advocating. There are many types of libertarian socialism and many of them have a strong non-aggression principle. I don't believe in a system that forces people to do something. Many people generalize that all socialist thinking is something, when it isn't. The width of socialist thinking is just as wide as the different views on capitalism.

In fact, one of the major issues I have with our current system is that people have little choice. We are still stuck on an idea that it's required for everyone to do work to make a living and pay their bills, when in fact we can use technology to create a type of society where only a small percentage must work. Eventually we'll get there anyway, but we could do it now, if we wanted to.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!

I want to build towers that reach far beyond the heavens! Machines that produce with no limit and endless efficiency! You will claim I make people irrelevant! You will claim that what I do with my property outprices others! Constantly you will stand in my way!

I will never be allowed to build under your rule!

Slaver, that is all you are! You just want man as a domestic pet that feeds out of your bowl!

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:28:54 PM
 #23

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

...

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!

I want to build towers that reach far beyond the heavens! Machines that produce with no limit and endless efficiency! You will claim I make people irrelevant! You will claim that what I do with my property outprices others! Constantly you will stand in my way!

I will never be allowed to build under your rule!

Slaver, that is all you are! You just want man as a domestic pet that feeds out of your bowl!
I hope this is trolling, because otherwise I feel bad for you. I forgot to mention one difference between the right and the left, wants and needs. The capitalist system does not differentiate between wants and needs, it fulfills the wants of those who have the purchasing power to buy. The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force. Only if people want such a system.

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December 09, 2011, 09:32:34 PM
 #24

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!
The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force.

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.

If an organism can only sustain itself by taking, it is a parasite. It is hardly sustainable life especially for a sentient society. I advocate a world where every man sustains himself by his own will. By grasping value and exchanging it for equitable value he requires; not surviving by theft nor force.

Good fucking luck. I won't pay a dime into your system. I will only pay for what I desire because it is only my action, my will that makes the resources I possess possible to exist. Again, you're a slaver. I will not be allowed to build limitlessly under your system. My goal in life is to only produce but I would only be allowed to do it under your terms.


@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:34:13 PM
 #25

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!
The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force.

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.


Good fucking luck. I won't pay a dime into your system. I will only pay for what I desire because it is only my action, my will that makes the resources I possess possible to exist. Again, you're a slaver. I will not be allowed to build limitlessly under your system. My goal in life is to only produce but I would only be allowed to do it under your terms.

You underestimate the power of peer pressure.

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December 09, 2011, 09:35:39 PM
 #26

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!
The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force.

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.


Good fucking luck. I won't pay a dime into your system. I will only pay for what I desire because it is only my action, my will that makes the resources I possess possible to exist. Again, you're a slaver. I will not be allowed to build limitlessly under your system. My goal in life is to only produce but I would only be allowed to do it under your terms.

You underestimate the power of peer pressure.

It has never affected me for my happiness isn't totally reliant on others.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:38:31 PM
 #27

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!
The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force.

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.


Good fucking luck. I won't pay a dime into your system. I will only pay for what I desire because it is only my action, my will that makes the resources I possess possible to exist. Again, you're a slaver. I will not be allowed to build limitlessly under your system. My goal in life is to only produce but I would only be allowed to do it under your terms.

You underestimate the power of peer pressure.

It has never affected me for my happiness isn't totally reliant on others.

Peer pressure has never affected you. That is a disturbing self assessment. Do you then act upon any urge you have, no matter how immoral or illegal it may be? Would you act on such urges if you knew there was no way you could ever be caught?

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December 09, 2011, 09:42:09 PM
 #28

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

Oh but it is. If I want a factory and I want to exchange with people who only want to be paid what I they are worth, you will threaten to destroy me. I can't build under your system. I can't produce. You will only limit me! I can't be a god under your rule! You will say what I can and can't do with my means to sustain, MY PROPERTY! You are a slaver but you ignore it! To you man is a domestic pet! I don't want to be leashed! I want to be a god over myself and my means to sustain!
The kind of system I advocate would make sure the needs of every single human being are being met before the wants of any human being are relevant at all. But not by force.

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.


Good fucking luck. I won't pay a dime into your system. I will only pay for what I desire because it is only my action, my will that makes the resources I possess possible to exist. Again, you're a slaver. I will not be allowed to build limitlessly under your system. My goal in life is to only produce but I would only be allowed to do it under your terms.

You underestimate the power of peer pressure.

It has never affected me for my happiness isn't totally reliant on others.

Peer pressure has never affected you. That is a disturbing self assessment. Do you then act upon any urge you have, no matter how immoral or illegal it may be? Would you act on such urges if you knew there was no way you could ever be caught?

I don't believe in morality. In the end, it is just insipid preferences people try to push upon others. I choose; I do not obey. I stand under no man, no government, no god unless his tangible force overwhelms me. In that case, my mind will prevail while my body deteriorates.

I do whatever I prefer. I prefer life. I choose to sustain life while everyone around me tries to destroy it in the name of their preferences. I believe life will reach its precipice once every man and woman becomes an immortal god.

That is what I live for: the day of the gods.

For now, I will treat every sentient being as the god they deserve to be; not the ones others serve and worship, no, but as an equal.

If I worship and stand under anything, it is the beauty of man and his ability to choose.

That's all I want: absolute choice.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:49:00 PM
 #29

For now, I will treat every sentient being as the god they deserve to be; not the ones others serve and worship, no, but as an equal.

If I worship and stand under anything, it is the beauty of man and his ability to choose.

You mean to choose good instead of evil, right? That sounds like morality to me.

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December 09, 2011, 09:50:51 PM
 #30

For now, I will treat every sentient being as the god they deserve to be; not the ones others serve and worship, no, but as an equal.

If I worship and stand under anything, it is the beauty of man and his ability to choose.

You mean to choose good instead of evil, right? That sounds like morality to me.
Morality has never been static. Some people view suicide and sacrifice as virtues; I do not.

I just consider these my preferences. They are not absolute.  They have no reward but my peace-of-mind. The acknowledgment of me being "a good person" gives me little to no pleasure.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:54:04 PM
 #31

For now, I will treat every sentient being as the god they deserve to be; not the ones others serve and worship, no, but as an equal.

If I worship and stand under anything, it is the beauty of man and his ability to choose.

You mean to choose good instead of evil, right? That sounds like morality to me.
Morality has never been static. Some people view suicide and sacrifice as virtues; I do not.

I just consider these my preferences. They are not absolute.  They have no reward but my peace-of-mind. The acknowledgment of me being "a good person" gives me little to no pleasure.

If you were on the Titanic and in the face of certain death, would you offer your place on a lifeboat for women and children?

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December 09, 2011, 10:05:56 PM
 #32

If I was old, yes. If I was young, no.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 10:07:17 PM
 #33

It also depends on how depressed and suicidal I was at the time.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 10:10:17 PM
 #34

It also depends on how depressed and suicidal I was at the time.

"Remember, I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together. Keep your stick on the ice." Red Green

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December 09, 2011, 10:20:16 PM
 #35

Did you know that originally the term was meant for libertarian socialism? It's a relatively recent development that libertarianism is associated with capitalist libertarianism by default.

The term 'libertarian' was a made up word in the 1960's to replace the already corrupted word 'liberal', which used to refer to people like Thomas Jefferson, who beleived that mankind should be able to largely govern themselves and had equal rights under God.  (as opposed to a soverign ruling class with a divine right to rule)  I have yet to see any evidence that those who created and adopted the term early on were anything like socialists.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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December 09, 2011, 10:36:23 PM
 #36

Did you know that originally the term was meant for libertarian socialism? It's a relatively recent development that libertarianism is associated with capitalist libertarianism by default.

The term 'libertarian' was a made up word in the 1960's to replace the already corrupted word 'liberal', which used to refer to people like Thomas Jefferson, who beleived that mankind should be able to largely govern themselves and had equal rights under God.  (as opposed to a soverign ruling class with a divine right to rule)  I have yet to see any evidence that those who created and adopted the term early on were anything like socialists.

Yeah, I'm going to fix this.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 10, 2011, 01:20:35 AM
 #37

Wants and needs can only be decided by an individual perspective. Not a collective. A collective does not think nor feel. It is not an organism.
This is not true. Human needs are actually quantifiable scientifically, to an extent. All humans have certain biological needs, certain psychological needs and certain social needs. All of these have elements that are fairly universal and elements that are individual, based on wants. I'm not advocating that we base anything on the opinions of a leader, group of leaders or even a collective. I'm advocating a more technocratic approach, if you will.

First I have to clarify that the wants of human beings are actually a criteria in this approach. So it definitely does not mean that everyone is fed the right kind of porridge and everyone sleeps in optimized dorms with bunk beds. This approach might fill the biological needs people have but not the psychological and social ones. All needs are taken into account and partially from an individual perspective.

Using this approach we can take solid scientific models such as the Maslow hierarchy into more practical use. Our goal would obviously be to allow every human being to reach the highest level. To be able to do something motivating, to better themselves, to be creative. But I want equality which means that we should first fulfill the two lowest levels in the Maslow hierarchy for everyone. These are physiological needs and safety. We claim our civilization is advanced and so great but still we have BILLIONS of people in the world who do not have even the basic needs met adequately.

A sane approach to society is to make sure the lower level needs are being met and then we can focus on giving everyone the opportunities to reach the highest level which is self-actualization. This approach is beneficial to everyone because it reduces crime in society, increases trust among members of society, increases mental health, physical health etc. Everything that REALLY MATTERS go up. Now we live in a society where we get kicks from our profits soaring, GDP going up, all the while the indicators that really matter go from bad to worse.

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