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Author Topic: Libertarians(Re: Bitcoin in Honduras' new charter cities)  (Read 3489 times)
Technomage
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December 09, 2011, 06:24:38 PM
 #1

Show me a sustainable non Libertarian city.  One that has sustained for thousands of years because it's so great. Governments have been destroying cities, countries, and the people, property, and wealth in them for thousands of years.  Maybe it's time to try something different - might work, might not, but I don't think the idea is any less sustainable that what we have currently.  And it may be a great opportunity for Bitcoin.
You must be delusional if you think governments are the cause of war and destruction. In fact, the greatest fallacy of right wing libertarian thinking is the tendency to blame governments for everything. War has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with governments and everything to do with scarcity and profit. Historically scarcity has been the main cause of war, even otherwise peaceful tribes had to go to war occasionally when their territory conflicted with another tribe. In other words, resources and their scarcity is the main cause of war.

In the modern world we have less scarcity but more greed. This has led to wars being started, funded and continued for profit. Someone always profits from war, the weapons industry, construction industry, banks etc. This creates a strong incentive for certain corporations to support war. It's obvious that wars officially happen between governments but it's the forces behind governments that support the war. So yes, governments are to blame, but not alone. The corporations supporting the war effort are just as much to blame. To summarize, it's not fruitful to blame the governments or the corporations alone, the whole system is flawed.

I admit there are other causes for war as well, such as religion and race. But I claim that most wars are actually about resource scarcity or profit, issues such as religion and race are mostly used as a tool to get the masses behind the war effort. There are of course exceptions to this, crusades where it's actually about religion, nothing else. The whole issue is very complex but one thing is for sure, putting the blame on the governments alone is just idiotic. And this applies to many other issues as well.

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December 09, 2011, 07:04:52 PM
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Show me a sustainable non Libertarian city.  One that has sustained for thousands of years because it's so great. Governments have been destroying cities, countries, and the people, property, and wealth in them for thousands of years.  Maybe it's time to try something different - might work, might not, but I don't think the idea is any less sustainable that what we have currently.  And it may be a great opportunity for Bitcoin.
You must be delusional if you think governments are the cause of war and destruction. In fact, the greatest fallacy of right wing libertarian thinking is the tendency to blame governments for everything. War has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with governments and everything to do with scarcity and profit. Historically scarcity has been the main cause of war, even otherwise peaceful tribes had to go to war occasionally when their territory conflicted with another tribe. In other words, resources and their scarcity is the main cause of war.

In the modern world we have less scarcity but more greed. This has led to wars being started, funded and continued for profit. Someone always profits from war, the weapons industry, construction industry, banks etc. This creates a strong incentive for certain corporations to support war. It's obvious that wars officially happen between governments but it's the forces behind governments that support the war. So yes, governments are to blame, but not alone. The corporations supporting the war effort are just as much to blame. To summarize, it's not fruitful to blame the governments or the corporations alone, the whole system is flawed.

I admit there are other causes for war as well, such as religion and race. But I claim that most wars are actually about resource scarcity or profit, issues such as religion and race are mostly used as a tool to get the masses behind the war effort. There are of course exceptions to this, crusades where it's actually about religion, nothing else. The whole issue is very complex but one thing is for sure, putting the blame on the governments alone is just idiotic. And this applies to many other issues as well.

I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

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December 09, 2011, 07:11:01 PM
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I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

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December 09, 2011, 07:39:04 PM
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I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

There's a leading theory that vaccines are a major cause of libertarianism in the U.S., although I think this may be a bit of a stretch based on the fact that Ron and Rand Paul both are affected by Asperger's syndrome.

Thanks goodness for a state like Kentucky, backward enough that even a mildly retarded con man can still become a U.S. Senator there. Rand also distinguished by having himself certified as a laser eye surgeon by a state professional organization that he founded solely for this purpose. His inability to see any problem with this strategem is a striking example of the quirky thinking often seen in Asperger's.

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December 09, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
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I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

There's a leading theory that vaccines are a major cause of libertarianism in the U.S., although I think this may be a bit of a stretch based on the fact that Ron and Rand Paul both are affected by Asperger's syndrome.

Thanks goodness for a state like Kentucky, backward enough that even a mildly retarded con man can still become a U.S. Senator there. Rand also distinguished by having himself certified as a laser eye surgeon by a state professional organization that he founded solely for this purpose. His inability to see any problem with this strategem is a striking example of the quirky thinking often seen in Asperger's.


Actually there is conclusive physical evidence of brain differences between self-described Liberals and Conservatives. There have been dozens of studies of such brain scans.

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December 09, 2011, 07:44:40 PM
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I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

So Rand and Newt would be right wing Republicans.  But when I think of right wing I think of imperialist big military blow up the world neo-conservitave types, and when I think of libertarian it's non-intervention leave and let be - much more suitable to a charter city, and to bitcoins. 

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December 09, 2011, 07:46:21 PM
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I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

There's a leading theory that vaccines are a major cause of libertarianism in the U.S., although I think this may be a bit of a stretch based on the fact that Ron and Rand Paul both are affected by Asperger's syndrome.

Thanks goodness for a state like Kentucky, backward enough that even a mildly retarded con man can still become a U.S. Senator there. Rand also distinguished by having himself certified as a laser eye surgeon by a state professional organization that he founded solely for this purpose. His inability to see any problem with this strategem is a striking example of the quirky thinking often seen in Asperger's.


Actually there is conclusive physical evidence of brain differences between self-described Liberals and Conservatives. There have been dozens of studies of such brain scans.

Sure, by liberals who desire to prove their own superiority.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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December 09, 2011, 07:58:46 PM
 #8

Corporations can only function under the legal protection that is the state. Anyways, move this thread to politics.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 07:59:38 PM
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Actually there is conclusive physical evidence of brain differences between self-described Liberals and Conservatives. There have been dozens of studies of such brain scans.

Sure, by liberals who desire to prove their own superiority.

Its not about superiority, its about priorities. I said nothing about a causal relationship. Willful ignorance is inexcusable. The science speaks for itself.

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December 09, 2011, 08:00:25 PM
 #10

I think that's a record for me, I am now a delusional right wing libertarian idiot, all from one post - I think I'll put that as my sig.  Can someone be a right wing libertarian?  Isn't that like a socialist capitalist? What do I know anyway, I'm a delusional idiot who uses bitcoins and thinks war has a lot to do with governments.

In the USA, the largest group of Libertarians are led by Ron Paul who is a Republican Presidential Candidate. They may not be as right wing as Newt Gingrich, but his son Rand Paul is a complete wing nut on the far right.

There's a leading theory that vaccines are a major cause of libertarianism in the U.S., although I think this may be a bit of a stretch based on the fact that Ron and Rand Paul both are affected by Asperger's syndrome.

Thanks goodness for a state like Kentucky, backward enough that even a mildly retarded con man can still become a U.S. Senator there. Rand also distinguished by having himself certified as a laser eye surgeon by a state professional organization that he founded solely for this purpose. His inability to see any problem with this strategem is a striking example of the quirky thinking often seen in Asperger's.


Actually there is conclusive physical evidence of brain differences between self-described Liberals and Conservatives. There have been dozens of studies of such brain scans.

Those idiotic studies are the height of arrogance... I'm surprised you are bringing those up.

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December 09, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
 #11

There are little to no conservatives on this forum. Non-sequitur.

I am willing to agree most people with typical conservative views are very primal, territorial and xenophobic people.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 08:04:25 PM
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There are little to no conservatives on this forum. Non-sequitur.

I am willing to agree most people with typical conservative views are very primal, territorial and xenophobic people.
Those idiotic studies are the height of arrogance... I'm surprised you are bringing those up.

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December 09, 2011, 08:06:40 PM
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There are little to no conservatives on this forum. Non-sequitur.

I am willing to agree most people with typical conservative views are very primal, territorial and xenophobic people.
Those idiotic studies are the height of arrogance... I'm surprised you are bringing those up.

 Grin

I don't see anything there, sir! Smiley
In case you're wondering, I'm not a rightie at all.  I just hate it when people think that they're superior to others based on brain differences or shit like that.  Most conservatives happen to be born into bible-thumping, conservative families that indoctrinate them, but that doesn't give you the right to call yourself superior.

Anyways, this thread has now devolved into an ad-hominem flame war.  I'm outta here.


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December 09, 2011, 08:09:53 PM
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Well, the biology of the human mind is not static: It is constantly changing and adapting in the face of new information and environments; the amount is up to the individual will.

The information regarding brain differences is likely true. It's relevance is a matter of another question and answer.

Some would call this "shades of grey". I call it objective reality.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 08:11:14 PM
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Well, the biology of the human mind is not static: It is constantly changing and adapting in the face of new information and environments; the amount is up to the individual will.

That's my point exactly.

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December 09, 2011, 08:12:07 PM
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You have my reverence, cbeast.

Cbeast is a good man. Don't resent him.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 08:56:52 PM
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Actually there is conclusive physical evidence of brain differences between self-described Liberals and Conservatives. There have been dozens of studies of such brain scans.

Sure, by liberals who desire to prove their own superiority.

Or there might be a correlation between those who have the analytic aptitude to understand brain science and those who have a liberal bias.  That would match the general observations I have made in some of the environments I have been privileged enough to have been a part of.


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December 09, 2011, 09:03:12 PM
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19. The leftist is not typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority make him a braggart, an egotist, a bully, a self-promoter, a ruthless competitor. This kind of person has not wholly lost faith in himself. He has a deficit in his sense of power and self-worth, but he can still conceive of himself as having the capacity to be strong, and his efforts to make himself strong produce his unpleasant behavior. [1] But the leftist is too far gone for that. His feelings of inferiority are so ingrained that he cannot conceive of himself as individually strong and valuable. Hence the collectivism of the leftist. He can feel strong only as a member of a large organization or a mass movement with which he identifies himself...

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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December 09, 2011, 09:04:30 PM
 #19

Very large percentage of Bitcoin supporters are libertarian. All of us have a certain dislike of governments and centralization. But there are different degrees of this and some other differences that make someone left-wing or right-wing.

For me the most relevant distinction is the perspective on economic freedoms. Right-wing thinkers value so called negative freedoms and give no value to so called positive freedoms. Right-wing thinkers are also very strict about property rights, where a left-wing person might be more prone to think in terms of access to resources instead of ownership and they also strongly differentiate personal property and private ownership.

What does negative freedoms and positive freedoms mean? This is a quote from Wikipedia: "A key difference between libertarian socialism and capitalist libertarianism is that advocates of the latter generally believe that one's degree of freedom is affected by one's economic and social status, whereas advocates of the former focus on freedom of choice. This is sometimes characterized as a desire to maximize "free creativity" in a society in preference to "free enterprise."

My personal position is close to libertarian socialism. The Wikipedia article on it is good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

The Bitcoin community is clearly split between libertarian socialists and different types of capitalist libertarians. I think this is a great thing. I find no other place in the world where these two groups can agree on something so strongly. I've been active in left-libertarian activist movements over the years and I'm used to arguing all day long with capitalist libertarians, now I'm happy to finally find something that gathers support from both groups.

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December 09, 2011, 09:06:48 PM
 #20

Don't confuse all of us as libertarians. Some of are anarchists and prefer absolute power on an individual level. We don't believe in postive-rights because they can only be made by degrading the rights of others.

We don't compromise on our ideal of individual sovereignty. We hold all individuals as important and they should not be compromised for the whims of others whether the slavery be in the name of compassion or otherwise. In the end, the ends are just preferences.

You want something and you justify violence, robbery and slavery to make it happen. You think you "care for people" so you hurt others to help the people you prefer: That's socialism. It's merely exchanging the happiness of people for the people you prefer.

You don't care about humanity. You're not a humanist. You're just a thug that hurts others to get what he wants. You only care about a certain humanity and it's not the people who are already happy. To you, they are evil because if you or somebody else is not happy, then nobody can be happy. You hate man in his successful form. It could be said you hate man in general because your methods will only destroy him.

@HarveyAlpha (https://twitter.com/#!/HarveyAlpha) | It would be foolish to assert that there is no power above mine. Only the attitude that I take toward it will be quite another than that of the religious age: I shall be the enemy of every higher power.
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