Crypto Mixers

[PercT4b]

Mixers are now under attack by American authorities, with Tornado Cash and Blender being their first big victims.

Moving on my opinion about this (because they wouldn't be relevant at all), do you know any other reliable mixing platforms?

I've made my own research but I want a feedback from this community which surely knows this world better than me (would be great to know something from people that actually use those platforms)

[1715042474]

1715042474

[1715042474]

1715042474

[1715042474]

1715042474

[mocacinno]

LeGaulois is keeping a list of mixers here => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827109.0;topicseen

This being said, it's a DYOR list, you have to double check each and every mixer... Personally i wouldn't use one with negative reviews, nor one that uses cloudflare...

I personally use the mixer in my signature from time to time... I know, they do pay me, but i wouldn't promote them if i didn't trust them. Other than that, i use wasabi wallet aswell to do some coinjoins, but the company behind wasabi started to blacklist unspent outputs which the community disproves of. It's up to you wether or not you trust them.
I personally still give them the benefit of the doubt (since blacklisting unspent outputs is not equal to stealing from somebody), but i do understand people that stopped using them.

[odolvlobo]

I use JoinMarket. It is an implementation of CoinJoin. I run the "yield generator" so that other people can mix my coins with theirs. I am in complete control of my coins. There is no reliance on a third party and I don't have to trust anyone. Running the yield generator is completely free, but you have to run a node..

[btc_angela]

Mixers are now under attack by American authorities, with Tornado Cash and Blender being their first big victims.

Moving on my opinion about this (because they wouldn't be relevant at all), do you know any other reliable mixing platforms?

I've made my own research but I want a feedback from this community which surely knows this world better than me (would be great to know something from people that actually use those platforms)

They have been always under attack, not sure if you are already in this community when this happened:

The lagest Bitcoin mixer is about to stop working - Bitmixer.io. It even precedes ChipMixer.

As for Coinjoin, you can read it here,  CoinJoin: Bitcoin privacy for the real world.

[mk4]

What mocacinno said.

Outside of Wasabi which I've also used myself(though they also have some degree of censorship), there's a reason why ChipMixer has fully moved their service to the Tor network. That way, they'll be significantly harder to take down.

NOTE: Other chipmixer sites other than the .com are scams.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't recommend on using a (centralized) mixing platform other than ChipMixer, and neither that if you don't think it's trustworthy. Authorities, as usual, have shown their pro-surveillance attitude, but smart people will figure it out decentrally, also as usual.

My favorite decentralized solutions are: JoinMarket (which incentivizes increase in liquidity), and usage of the Lightning Network as a mixer.

[jackg]

I was looking a few days ago to see if there were any good new competition to chipmixer and couldn't really find anything. Wasabi coinjoin seems to come up a lot but wallets can get a lot of data from their users and I don't know how much I'd trust that - in case you get a virus, could it see your history or join yours without you knowing because another system got compromised?

but you have to run a node..

I'm wondering how much of a drawback this might be and I'm still not sure. It means it's harder to use on a lightweight client (perhaps apposed to services like bisq which would let you convert to xmr/grin and then back later without needing a long sync) - but I'm not sure if bisq suffers privacy issues for being spv (which is the reason reddit seems to give for joinmarket needing a node).

Joinmarket looks like quite an interesting new project and it'll be interesting to see how that develops - especially if centralised mixers become easier to censor.

[mocacinno]

--snip--
Wasabi coinjoin seems to come up a lot but wallets can get a lot of data from their users and I don't know how much I'd trust that - in case you get a virus, could it see your history or join yours without you knowing because another system got compromised?
--snip--

By default, Wasabi only connects over Tor. So, i don't know if there would be an extra attack vector if you have a virus anyways... If you have a virus that steals data, it wouldn't need Wasabi to send your data to the virus writer, and it probably wouldn't matter what wallet you used anyways, if it was unlocked the virus writer would probably be able to find an attack vector no matter what wallet you were running (unless it's a hardware wallet or an airgapped one).

I see more problems with the censorship part than with data stealing/virus problems. I mean, if your system gets compromised you're in trouble no matter which desktop wallet you use...

[franky1]

regulators are treating all tools promoted as privacy enhancing as suspicious..
this includes mixers, jumbers, AEC(anonymity enhancing currencies (monero/liquid types of coins)
and also siderchains and subnets(layers) and tools deemed as scaling solutions that are advertised as having privacy features

they are not hand picking only a certain service by name. they deem them all as suspicious..

so when users use these services then expect exchanges and MSB that are regulated and regulation compliant to red flag funds that used those services

this means by using them. you are not hiding.. your actually getting highlighted

the trick is to use things that have certain features as a side product of something else. but dont advertise themselves as a mixer/privacy enhancing tool.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Joinmarket looks like quite an interesting new project and it'll be interesting to see how that develops - especially if centralised mixers become easier to censor.

JoinMarket isn't new - it was first launched over 7 years ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919116.0. This is less than 18 months after Greg Maxwell proposed coinjoin in the first place: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg2983902#msg2983902.

JoinMarket is the oldest coinjoin method there is, as well as the one with the most volume according to https://www.bitcoinkpis.com/privacy. The reason that many people haven't heard of it is because it requires you to run your full node and is a bit more technical to set up, and is not run by a centralized entity which collects fees from users to then spend on advertising and the like.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm wondering how much of a drawback this might be and I'm still not sure.

Me neither. Seems more like a feature.

but I'm not sure if bisq suffers privacy issues for being spv

It doesn't suffer on what it's trying to accomplish (oppositely to some project we already know now more), that is privacy preservation. Bisq allows you connect to your own node: https://bisq.wiki/Connecting_to_your_own_Bitcoin_node. Communication between maker and taker is also end-to-end encrypted: https://bisq.wiki/Dispute_resolution

[zasad@]

https://dappradar.com/blog/tornado-cash-fallout-could-spread-to-bitcoin
"The first scenario is an enforcement agency banning CoinJoins altogether. However unlikely, and while it would mean excluding multiple-party Bitcoin transactions, such an action can still be done.

Perhaps a more likely scenario is CoinJoins’ coordinators being sanctioned. While platforms like JoinMarket wouldn’t be straightforward to sanction due to their setup, in the cases of Samourai and Wasabi, there are central coordinators. This type of sanction is still relatively unlikely given the structure of CoinJoins and because of a statement by Europol saying that Anti Money Laundering rules don’t apply to these tools. "
These ricks are already written a lot in the news. And no one knows how far regulators of the crypto market can go.

[mk4]

https://dappradar.com/blog/tornado-cash-fallout-could-spread-to-bitcoin
"The first scenario is an enforcement agency banning CoinJoins altogether. However unlikely, and while it would mean excluding multiple-party Bitcoin transactions, such an action can still be done.

Perhaps a more likely scenario is CoinJoins’ coordinators being sanctioned. While platforms like JoinMarket wouldn’t be straightforward to sanction due to their setup, in the cases of Samourai and Wasabi, there are central coordinators. This type of sanction is still relatively unlikely given the structure of CoinJoins and because of a statement by Europol saying that Anti Money Laundering rules don’t apply to these tools. "
These ricks are already written a lot in the news. And no one knows how far regulators of the crypto market can go.

Probably one of the biggest factors in these cases are the fact that the teams(or at least some members) of both Wasabi and Tornado are doxxed, hence easily pursued by the authorities. It would definitely be a different case if the entire teams of both platforms are full anon.

[jackg]

JoinMarket isn't new - it was first launched over 7 years ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919116.0. This is less than 18 months after Greg Maxwell proposed coinjoin in the first place: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279249.msg2983902#msg2983902.

I saw it being in a niche news article from March about it getting a functioning/stable UI this year - when I searched for it now, I think the article was from an obscure source as I don't think I've heard of it before - (not sure if that was what it actually was or if they were after making standalone executibles or something - since it was a news article I was reading and it seems like it used to be released in python).

The reason that many people haven't heard of it is because it requires you to run your full node and is a bit more technical to set up, and is not run by a centralized entity which collects fees from users to then spend on advertising and the like.

It hasn't ended up in the news quite as much as chipmixer and bitmixer did afaik too. I didn't hear it being mentioned much with the big binance hack (when chipmixer was) - perhaps it's harder to trace/know too...

[o_e_l_e_o]

Me neither. Seems more like a feature.

For any true, trustless privacy, running your own node is a must. It might be seen as a drawback, but it is also a necessity.

"This type of sanction is still relatively unlikely given the structure of CoinJoins and because of a statement by Europol saying that Anti Money Laundering rules don’t apply to these tools."

Meh. They'll change their statements and their rules whenever they like to suit their ulterior motives of neutering bitcoin and controlling their populations. We shouldn't rest on our laurels and assume that we will never need anything beyond coinjoins for maintaining privacy and censorship resistance. Coinjoins remain very open to attack, not least of all from the centralized coordinators themselves, as we've seen with Wasabi.