Do Hardware wallet Manufacturers Ship to PO Boxes or Not?

[Pmalek]

Several hardware wallet manufacturers have suffered hacks and data leaks in the past. This trend might not stop, and I think we will also read similar stories in the future.

That’s why I decided to check with the most popular hardware wallet creators if they support shipping to PO boxes and payments with cryptocurrencies. I sent emails to their support to ensure I got the correct information.

You can check out the results in the table below:

|	Brand	|	Shipping to PO Boxes?	|	Payments via Crypto?	|
|	BitBox	|	Yes, depends on country and courier.	|	Yes, BTC and LBTC via Crpyto.com Pay and BTCPay Server.	|
|	Blockstream Jade	|	Yes	|	Yes, BTC, LBTC, and USDt via BTCPay Server.	|
|	Coldcard	|	Yes	|	Yes, BTC.	|
|	Foundation Passport	|	Yes	|	Yes, BTC via BTCPay Server.	|
|	KeepKey	|	*Unknown	|	No	|
|	Keystone	|	No	|	Yes, via Coinbase Commerce and OpenNode.	|
|	Ledger	|	Yes, via regular mail. Not supported in USA.	|	Yes, via BitPay and Crypto.com Pay.	|
|	OneKey	|	Yes	|	Yes, via Coinbase Commerce and MixPay.	|
|	SafePal	|	No	|	Yes, via SafePal Pay.	|
|	Satochip	|	Yes	|	Yes, via Coinbase Commerce.	|
|	Trezor	|	Yes	|	Yes, BTC and LTC via Confirmo.net.	|

* Support agents are unsure, don't have precise information, or info is not available on official sources.


11 hardware wallet manufacturers were contacted, and all of them replied back.

When it comes to shipping to PO boxes, these are the results:
-   7 companies support sending shipments to PO boxes. It’s important to mention that not all carriers will ship packages to PO boxes in all countries.
-   2 companies don’t ship to PO boxes.
-   The support personnel of Coldcard and KeepKey weren’t sure exactly and couldn’t provide me with the correct information.  

In terms of paying via crypto, all popular brands support crypto payments. It would be weird if they didn’t, but that wasn't the case a few years ago for some of them. KeepKey support told me they accept crypto payments, but I couldn’t find an option to pay with cryptocurrencies in their shop. Once I get more info, I will update the table and thread.


More brands can be added to OP. For now, I decided to focus on the most popular ones. If you want to see a particular wallet in the table, feel free to request it below, and I will try to add it.

[1714659157]

1714659157

[Charles-Tim]

I think we should not omit the fact that some hardware wallets are not totally recommendable. Example is the Ledger Nano that does not much care about their customer's privacy, anyone that wants privacy may not still want go for such kind of wallet.

Another is SafePal. I am not surprised that SafePal is making use of SafePal Pay, just like Binance wants BUSD to be the dominant stable coin. But that is not the matter, the matter is that SafePal is the worst wallet among them, not recommendable nor advisable to be used. The wallet is completely close source, using close source mobile app, not support open source wallet like Electrum, but stuck with their app with little to almost no feature than to send and receive cryptocurrency.

BitBox02 is one of the best hardware wallet, but not just partially recommendable because it supports Address Ownership Proof Protocol (AOPP).

[Pmalek]

I think we should not omit the fact that some hardware wallets are not totally recommendable.

This is not a recommendation to purchase any of the wallets in the table or any hardware wallet in general if you don't want to. It's just a list of some of the most-mentioned names in the space. Most people who will see this thread will surely have heard of SafePal even if it's in a negative context. Their quality, features, and reasons for existence are not the objective of this discussion.  

BitBox02 is one of the best hardware wallet, but not just partially recommendable because it supports Address Ownership Proof Protocol (AOPP).

Many companies introduced the infamous AOPP. They only changed their mind because the community reacted negatively.  

[o_e_l_e_o]

Ledger use BitPay? Ugh. Imagine completing BitPay's KYC requirements to buy a hardware wallet. What a ridiculous security risk.

BitBox02 is one of the best hardware wallet, but not just partially recommendable because it supports Address Ownership Proof Protocol (AOPP).

It doesn't just support it; the company which manufactures BitBox - Shift Crypto - created AOPP. I definitely don't want my hardware wallet manufacturer creating protocols which make it easier for the government to stick their noses in to my hardware wallet.

[SFR10]

-   The support personnel of Coldcard and KeepKey weren’t sure exactly and couldn’t provide me with the correct information.   

I couldn't find anything for KeepKey, but here's a "tweet from Coldcard" that mentions they support shipping to P.O. Boxes on their Coinkite store.
For what it's worth, I'm glad Trezor finally partnered with a new shipping company to make this possible ^{[it wasn't possible a few months back]}.

[DaveF]

I can tell you that as of when *I* ordered both ColdCard keystone both DO deliver to PO boxes. OR at lest DID.

BUT, keep the following in mind.

1) I am US based so this might not apply to the rest of the world.
1a) That is probably a fair assumption in general that there may be different requirements for different places. Specifically if something is going though customs / requires a signature for delivery.

2) With keystone you either have to pay with BTC or have the PO box address on file with PayPal. A PO box is my default PP address and when I bought mine that is where it went.

3) ColdCard accepted whatever address I put in. Since we are the default office for un-deliverable things in my office building I often make up office numbers. i.e. STE 507 which is very impressive since the building only has 2 floors.... But, the point is that they do not do address verification like other places that will not let me make up office numbers.
3a) Which did turn into a disaster when the old building owner sub-divided some spaces and added 10 offices on the 2nd floor and it took a while for the post office / address verification databases to catch up.

4) Keystone is available through Amazon and they will deliver to Amazon lockers here in the US.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5359720.msg57962757#msg57962757

-Dave

[Lucius]

Ledger use BitPay? Ugh. Imagine completing BitPay's KYC requirements to buy a hardware wallet. What a ridiculous security risk.

I don't remember it being necessary before and I haven't really used that processor for a long time - but if every customer has to do KYC just to make a payment in Bitcoin then that's just another added risk in potentially compromising the privacy of anyone buying HW.

In a way, this makes every purchase that would be made through a PO box somewhat pointless, because even though Ledger does not know our data, the payment processor can always be hacked, and then the only question is which data will leak. The only safe way of shopping left is to find a physical store, put on a cap and a protective mask and pay with cash, preferably outside the place of residence.

[o_e_l_e_o]

I don't remember it being necessary before and I haven't really used that processor for a long time

This is certainly the first I've heard of Ledger using BitPay, but it could have been that way for years and I would have never known.

The only safe way of shopping left is to find a physical store, put on a cap and a protective mask and pay with cash, preferably outside the place of residence.

Agreed. If the only way of buying a Ledger online is either through a KYCed fiat method or a KYC enforcing bitcoin processor such as BitPay, then you should simply never buy a Ledger online. With all the time Ledger can spend integrating debit cards and instant exchangers and other privacy invading trash in to Ledger Live, you would think they could just set up their own instance of BTCPay or similar.

[DaveF]

....If the only way of buying a Ledger online is either through a KYCed fiat method or a KYC enforcing bitcoin processor such as BitPay, then you should simply never buy a Ledger online. With all the time Ledger can spend integrating debit cards and instant exchangers and other privacy invading trash in to Ledger Live, you would think they could just set up their own instance of BTCPay or similar.

Makes you wonder if there is a business model here of re-shipping crypto wallets.
[Using I / me but could be anyone]

You pay me crypto for the wallet + a fee, I order however I want and get it shipped to me I then ship it to you while never opening the original shipping package.
Yes you would have to trust me, but since I would really not care or check you could have me ship it to someone else who would then ship / give it to you.

Probably a very small market, but would help some people feel more secure that there is no real way to trace hardware wallet 'xxx' to them.

-Dave

[Pmalek]

Ledger use BitPay? Ugh. Imagine completing BitPay's KYC requirements to buy a hardware wallet. What a ridiculous security risk.

I think all of them accept crypto through one or the other service provider. I didn't check the online shops for all brands if the support agents told me exactly which crypto assets are accepted. But I think I should do that for those that are missing to ensure the info is 100% correct. Do you think BitPay is different from Coinbase Commerce Crypto.com Pay, for example? I assume that the same type of verification would be required by most of them.

I couldn't find anything for KeepKey, but here's a "tweet from Coldcard" that mentions they support shipping to P.O. Boxes on their Coinkite store.

Excellent. Thanks for finding that. I will update the info in the table.

For what it's worth, I'm glad Trezor finally partnered with a new shipping company to make this possible ^{[it wasn't possible a few months back]}.

I have my doubts about the knowledge of these support representatives. They might not have the full picture, who knows. I am sure you can't ship to PO boxes in all countries, and I can swear I heard that electronic devices can't be delivered to PO boxes.

This is certainly the first I've heard of Ledger using BitPay, but it could have been that way for years and I would have never known.

If you start the ordering process in their online shop and select to pay with crypto, you will eventually be redirected to BitPay. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

Makes you wonder if there is a business model here of re-shipping crypto wallets.

There already exist several companies which you can use to receive mail or packages and then forward to another address without opening, such as iPostal1, Traveling Mailbox, or Anytime Mailbox. It would be preferable to use a general company which forwards any package as opposed to one which only forwards hardware wallets, for the exact reason that if the forwarding company leaks user data, then if they only deal with hardware wallets then you are back at square one.

Do you think BitPay is different from Coinbase Commerce Crypto.com Pay, for example? I assume that the same type of verification would be required by most of them.

BitPay are the worst possible payment provider in existence. While I'm not crazy about any custodial payment process, I just tried to place some test orders via Crypto.com and Coinbase Commerce out of interest. Crypto.com just ask for an email address, which can obviously be a burner, and Coinbase Commerce don't ask for anything at all. BitPay, on the other hand, require a fully KYCed account in order to place an order. which is just ridiculous, especially for a hardware wallet manufacturer.

[dkbit98]

It's strange that Keystone wallet is not supporting PO Boxes when they recently opened dedicated Amazon shop in Europe.
For other hardware wallets I think that UPS mailboxes are better option than PO boxes in US, or simply use any alternative  delivery address.
If I could choose I would always try to buy them locally in official shops.

Ledger use BitPay? Ugh. Imagine completing BitPay's KYC requirements to buy a hardware wallet. What a ridiculous security risk.

They are widely known for their ''famous'' security practices, especially when you combine BitPay kyc with millions of leaked private information  

[n0nce]

~

Great list, very valuable information! Unfortunately, it doesn't include information about export / import.
I'm not 100% sure about it, but I believe it depends more on the individual country's laws than on what the wallet manufacturer.

So therefore it would be useful to also add official (overseas, with respect to manufacturer location) resellers to the list.
For example, US-based Foundation Devices sells in EU through https://shop.btcdirect.eu/, so it would be helpful to know whether they sell through PO boxes (though they apparently don't yet sell batch 2) for EU-based customers.

[Pmalek]

For other hardware wallets I think that UPS mailboxes are better option than PO boxes in US, or simply use any alternative  delivery address.

Ledger's support told me that they only work with DHL in the United States, and according to them, DHL doesn't deliver packages to PO Boxes. Their suggestion is using regular mail if you are a US customer.

So therefore it would be useful to also add official (overseas, with respect to manufacturer location) resellers to the list.
For example, US-based Foundation Devices sells in EU through https://shop.btcdirect.eu/, so it would be helpful to know whether they sell through PO boxes (though they apparently don't yet sell batch 2) for EU-based customers.

Adding one or two more columns with reseller information is certainly doable. Contacting each individual reseller to ask them about PO boxes is quite the task though. I know that Ledger and Trezor have dozens of them worldwide. Since you mentioned Foundation Passport, I know they have 3 official resellers in the EU. The one you mentioned is for the UK, but there is also Cryptomaan and Bitcoin Brabant for Belgium and The Netherlands. There is also a company in Slovenia called Eventus sistemi, but they are not mentioned in the EU list. They are in a "Distributors" category at the end of the page. 

[o_e_l_e_o]

For other hardware wallets I think that UPS mailboxes are better option than PO boxes in US, or simply use any alternative  delivery address.

Yet another option is to use general delivery or poste restante, where your package is simply delivered to a post office and you later go pick it up. You will still have to reveal your name, but not your address, and you can always use a post office in a completely different city/county/state to obfuscate things further.

I'm not 100% sure about it, but I believe it depends more on the individual country's laws than on what the wallet manufacturer.

This, and the mail carrier they use. Note the disclaimer given on the BitBox link that Pmalek has included in his first post:

All parcels need to be processed by a local customs office in your country for international shipments. Whether they allow a PO Box/access point as the recipient address depends on each country. Please be prepared for UPS to contact you and ask for an alternative address if they cannot deliver to a PO Box in your country.

[Lucius]

~snip~
With all the time Ledger can spend integrating debit cards and instant exchangers and other privacy invading trash in to Ledger Live, you would think they could just set up their own instance of BTCPay or similar.

Maybe they would do that if they understood how important the privacy and security of their clients is. The way they tried to minimize the damage they caused to their clients when the database was hacked perhaps best shows that such things are not very important to them. Although, considering that some EU politicians and bureaucrats have visions of even stricter regulation when it comes to cryptocurrencies, I would not be surprised if Ledger and similar companies start demanding strict KYC for every customer.

A few days ago, I read that an online casino is asking for verification in such a way that the user has to take a selfie with a newspaper in his hands, in front of a sign with the name of his street and house number...

[o_e_l_e_o]

Although, considering that some EU politicians and bureaucrats have visions of even stricter regulation when it comes to cryptocurrencies, I would not be surprised if Ledger and similar companies start demanding strict KYC for every customer.

Wouldn't surprise me. We know from things like AOPP and FATF documents that in the US the government want to move to a system where every address is KYC linked, and that they want all centralized exchanges, platforms, or services which allow withdrawals to personal wallets to ensure every withdrawal address is KYC linked. It's not a huge step from there to imagine them wanting a system where every wallet, software or hardware, requires KYC linking first. Of course such a proposal is crazy and could never work in practice, but these are the same people who are trying to ban encryption, so I wouldn't put something equally stupid like this past them for a second.

[n0nce]

I'm not 100% sure about it, but I believe it depends more on the individual country's laws than on what the wallet manufacturer.

This, and the mail carrier they use. Note the disclaimer given on the BitBox link that Pmalek has included in his first post:

All parcels need to be processed by a local customs office in your country for international shipments. Whether they allow a PO Box/access point as the recipient address depends on each country. Please be prepared for UPS to contact you and ask for an alternative address if they cannot deliver to a PO Box in your country.

I'd advice to always order 'locally' (this usually includes whole EU if you're in the EU) exactly because of this. However, I'm not sure why Passport batch2 is not yet available from European resellers. Luckily, I can receive online orders in the US at the moment, but if all EU-based customers need to import, that would really suck.

Of course such a proposal is crazy and could never work in practice, but these are the same people who are trying to ban encryption, so I wouldn't put something equally stupid like this past them for a second.

Never forget!

[o_e_l_e_o]

However, I'm not sure why Passport batch2 is not yet available from European resellers.

Are they not still at the pre-order phase? I wouldn't expect re-sellers to offer them for sale until they had confirmation from Foundation Devices that their shipment was complete and ready to go.

What kind of delivery fees or customs/import fees would you be looking at to import to the EU from the US? And I presume a PO Box would be out of the question in such a case.

Never forget!

A bar code rather than a QR code? What is this, the 90s!? Did you find that picture on Geocities?

[DaveF]

Makes you wonder if there is a business model here of re-shipping crypto wallets.

There already exist several companies which you can use to receive mail or packages and then forward to another address without opening, such as iPostal1, Traveling Mailbox, or Anytime Mailbox. It would be preferable to use a general company which forwards any package as opposed to one which only forwards hardware wallets, for the exact reason that if the forwarding company leaks user data, then if they only deal with hardware wallets then you are back at square one.

I look it at closer to the fact that a single trusted user doing it as a side hustle that only deals with hardware wallets is more likely to get away with the 'I don't keep records' thing if something happens then a full service company. I know a lot of the mail forwarding places do keep records and have handed them over to the authorities if requested. The o_e_l_e_o re-ship service could get away with a lot more, and if you are ordering the device yourself you have 0 concern about someone shipping you a pound of meth that you then forwarded on...

Taking it a step past that you could always keep a few of the more popular ones sitting around and then just ship from stock, but when the next model comes out you might be stuck with the old one.

You would never get rich doing this, but beer money is good :-)

-Dave