Anyone up for Beta Testing a Prototype on Lightning Network?

[shellandbull]

From the above, I conclude that either you or a third party runs a Lightning node you connect to, server-side, and which generates the invoice whose pre-image clients use as seeds. Therefore, it's entirely possible for the entity that controls the Lightning node to pass an invoice with non-random pre-image. Isn't that correct?


Nope its not correct, you don't understand. I explained it above, go and read that.

Not even how the data flows.

Read my previous answers.

Read the lightning specification ->  https://github.com/lightning/bolts/blob/master/00-introduction.md

Read the source code of a lightning node implementation -> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd is pretty good also https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair

Read about preimages there. If you still feel like coming back here and garble hurr durr my seed isn't truly random & verifiable please do back your claims with data, code snippets, verifications, etc.

Repeat yourself all you want, rephrase yourself all you want, I don't care. You asked a question and got an answer.

Also, for the readers out there:

This person is alluding to the fact that  ANY developer can openly tamper with the various implementations of the protocol to get something that they want.

If that was a thing there would be bigger stuff to fish rather than developing an app where the max bet is ...$9 and every single one of us would have WAY more things to worry about.

You genuinely sound very schizo pal, I'm sorry to say this.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If your game is fair by the assumption that you won't alter your server-side software without being possible for anyone to verify the difference, it isn't provably fair. It's faithfully fair.

Moron.

[shellandbull]

If your game is fair by the assumption that you won't alter your server-side software without being possible for anyone to verify the difference, it isn't provably fair. It's faithfully fair.

Moron.

The seed isn't generated by my server, that was explained already. Again, read the other comments. Whine all you want.

I have people staking, winning or losing and moving on with their day happily.

When they're curious about the seed, they run the verification script and read the /fair page. They understand it and let it be

[shellandbull]

Hi everyone!

I have an update to make  

We have now introduced multiple odds on satsumo roll!

https://roll.satsumo.xyz/

You can now stake on 1/2, 1/6 or even 1/10 odds for bigger payouts!

If you're using this product for the first time please feel free to film a little video using the app for the first time! If you run into any issues and the problem is captured on film we will refund your sats on the spot

[Pmalek]

@shellandbull
I am honestly surprised about the way you decided to handle this. It doesn't give the impression of a trustworthy individual. Maybe you are an excellent developer, maybe better than anyone who responded in this thread, but you have failed on your customer relationship management big time. If I have a choice of shopping in an establishment that is more expensive, but I am valued and greeted with a smile and a good day, compared to one that is cheaper but the owner laughs at the way I look or talk, I would shop at the more expensive store.

Let's say BlackHatCoiner didn't understand how all this works. How can you blame him if there is conflicting information? First, it's you who generates the invoice, then you have nothing to do with the preimage and the lightning implementation generates the invoice.

Instead of calling someone a troll, you could actually explain it properly. Or maybe the service is meant for experienced coders and developers only and the regular users (douchebags) should just go elsewhere and keep their mouths shut?   

Rath_ has always struck me as being very knowledgeable about LN matters. I am going to PM him to check this out if he wants to. Maybe he can help to clear up all the fuzzy stuff.

[shellandbull]

@Pmalek has a valid comment

I am honestly surprised about the way you decided to handle this. It doesn't give the impression of a trustworthy individual. Maybe you are an excellent developer, maybe better than anyone who responded in this thread, but you have failed on your customer relationship management big time. If I have a choice of shopping in an establishment that is more expensive, but I am valued and greeted with a smile and a good day, compared to one that is cheaper but the owner laughs at the way I look or talk, I would shop at the more expensive store.

Here's a full breakdown and my view on the situation:

1) He was being rude and I was being rude back.

2) His username is also "blackhatcoiner"

By definition a black hat is someone thats trying to maliciously gain information about a system -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hat_(computer_security)#:~:text=Black%20hat%20hackers%20break%20into,unusable%20for%20authorized%20network%20users.

It is *very common* practice for any attacker/intruder to anally scrutinise and ask questions about the system he's about to attack.

Where the naked eye sees a customer being "mistreated". I see someone wearing a baklava outside a bank asking bank tellers about opening times.

And for the record, the bit of information he didn't understand has nothing to do with my app, but how the lightning network generates preimages

Let's say BlackHatCoiner didn't understand how all this works. How can you blame him if there is conflicting information? First, it's you who generates the invoice, then you have nothing to do with the preimage and the lightning implementation generates the invoice.

Instead of calling someone a troll, you could actually explain it properly. Or maybe the service is meant for experienced coders and developers only and the regular users (douchebags) should just go elsewhere and keep their mouths shut?   

I did. and his response is that I am somehow tampering with the preimage. But the preimage is generated by the paying customer's lightning node, nothing to do with me!

I asked him to show me how, then I got no response

Rath_ has always struck me as being very knowledgeable about LN matters. I am going to PM him to check this out if he wants to. Maybe he can help to clear up all the fuzzy stuff.

That would be great. I ran my implementation past some LND developers and they said a preimage is a valid random seed for any sort of lightning application development. I was also met with happy reactions in other forums: https://ibb.co/KbL9DRL

I am open to tweak my implementation if it can be proven unambiguously that a seed off a preimage can be tampered with, based on my current description of matters

[BlackHatCoiner]

Listen up, and listen good.

I have NOTHING to do with what you imagine me to be in your head. Was I clear? Here's once more: I have no bad intentions, no aim to "gain information about a system", no particular purpose to exploit your game. Pretty much the opposite, I'm looking forward for new innovative and fun bitcoin projects, just as most of us, hobbyists, here. Whenever I don't understand the way a game or an app works, I seek for an answer, especially when you yourself have presented the stuff here.

I was eager to find out how provably fairness is reassured in your game, and that's why I got involved into talking to you. Once I saw you hadn't made it clear in your website, and that you quickly switched to an obnoxious childish piece of Internet crap, it started smelling fishy to me, justifiably. Your explanatory page is ambiguous; you nowhere state how it's provably fair. Supplying some code doesn't make it provably fair. Making use of an external software, that is a Lightning client, to generate a seed doesn't preclude the possibility that some party can alter it for their advantage.

As for the username, should I conclude you're literally a shell and a bull? Seriously, how old are you? LoyceV must have made an accurate approach.

[shellandbull]

For the reader out there, look at this person:

was eager to find out how provably fairness is reassured in your game, and that's why I got involved into talking to you. Once I saw you hadn't made it clear in your website, and that you quickly switched to an obnoxious childish piece of Internet crap

As for the username, should I conclude you're literally a shell and a bull? Seriously, how old are you?

And please draw your own conclusions  

Making use of an external software, that is a Lightning client, to generate a seed doesn't preclude the possibility that some party can alter it for their advantage.

Can you explain why? with details and code snippets please.

Same issue as before its going to happen.

1) You make a wild remark
2) I ask you to prove it
3) You tangentially decline to prove it and quote you're too busy and don't care the enough but keep coming back to comment
4) The circle repeats

You haven't even been able to post how preimages are generated in the lightning network. Not even that.

And as said before. When you pay an invoice, the call goes through YOUR WALLET SOFTWARE, which connects to a node THAT I DO NOT OWN. So how could I possibly tamper with the preimage generation?

If any an end user could tamper with it...this app would be the least of our issues because people could do all sorts of stuff. It's like saying the tech is perfectly penetrable since its open source

@BlackHatCoiner Why don't you just stake another 1,000 sats on a 50/50 basis and follow the instructions + film a video and post it here. So we can see what happens when you use it

[BlackHatCoiner]

2) I ask you to prove it

You're the one who's in the unfavorable position to prove things, not me. You're the one who claims your game is provably fair. Argue that claim. I can't prove you're generating non-random numbers, and neither do I believe you do; that doesn't mean it's technically impossible for you or another party (whoever owns the node) to rip the users off. That's why I argue against, and say that you're faithfully fair.

You haven't even been able to post how preimages are generated in the lightning network.

You've yet to comprehend my point. I don't say that Lightning software is written in a way that makes pre-image generation non-random. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to alter the source code individually and make it generate non-random pre-images.

When you pay an invoice, the call goes through YOUR WALLET SOFTWARE, which connects to a node THAT I DO NOT OWN.

But, can you prove that you don't own it? And if you do (which you don't), can you also prove that the person who owns it isn't ill-intentioned? No. Faith is required.

[shellandbull]

You're the one who's in the unfavorable position to prove things, not me. You're the one who claims your game is provably fair. Argue that claim. I can't prove you're generating non-random numbers, and neither do I believe you do; that doesn't mean it's technically impossible for you or another party (whoever owns the node) to rip the users off. That's why I argue against, and say that you're faithfully fair.

I'm in a favorable position because I've backed every claim made instead of garbling nonsense like you have

You've yet to comprehend my point. I don't say that Lightning software is written in a way that makes pre-image generation non-random. I'm saying that it's entirely possible to alter the source code individually and make it generate non-random pre-images.

This sentence summarises your level of knowledge on the topic

It also summarises your thinking capacity

But, can you prove that you don't own it? And if you do (which you don't), can you also prove that the person who owns it isn't ill-intentioned? No. Faith is required.

Read above.

I can reply to your dumb comments everytime, it bumps my thread, thanks.

It's not bad advertising when a buffoon gets put in his place over and over again.

[LoyceV]

I was being rude

There's your problem!

2) His username is also "blackhatcoiner"

Attacking the person when you're out of arguments is something I've seen from many scammers, but never from people who created something legit.

Seriously, how old are you? LoyceV must have made an accurate approach.

Can't argue with that
I quickly ignored the angry kid and unwatched this topic, but since I was mentioned again, I now know nothing changed.

@jordapoulton: it would probably be better for your business if you distance yourself from shellandbull.

[shellandbull]

There's your problem!

You're literally trimming my words to fix to your narrative this is ridiculous


As per analytics this forum has the lowest amount of referrals compared to even telegram groups.

@jordapoulton: it would probably be better for your business if you distance yourself from shellandbull.

lol

After browsing this entire subsection on the forum I can only attest that anything that isn't a shitty price calculator BTC2fiat is suddenly a scam, even when you people are unable to prove that

[LoyceV]

There's your problem!

You're literally trimming my words to fix to your narrative this is ridiculous

Clearly, you're missing my point. If you want to run a business, you should never be rude. Talking about running a business: how's your gambling license doing?

[AdolfinWolf]

The preimage exists ONLY when you settle an invoice.

I did. and his response is that I am somehow tampering with the preimage. But the preimage is generated by the paying customer's lightning node, nothing to do with me!

And as said before. When you pay an invoice, the call goes through YOUR WALLET SOFTWARE, which connects to a node THAT I DO NOT OWN. So how could I possibly tamper with the preimage generation?

FWIW this is all false.
Yes it's true the preimage for us only "exists" is known once the invoice is settled, because YOU have to reveal it in order to claim the payment that was made to the payment_hash (a hash of the PREIMAGE)

The preimage, so in fact, the input, is generated by lightning and nothing to do with us. Hence fair.

It's generated by your lightning software, but various implementations will allow you to set a custom preimage, and even if they didn't there'd be a way to do so.

I am open to tweak my implementation if it can be proven unambiguously that a seed off a preimage can be tampered with, based on my current description of matters

Since a preimage is really just the equivalent of a random sha hash, you could start with a good secret and then make a hash of a hash n times, and replay that. Once the new bet is placed you can reveal the old hash to everyone in order to prove you're not alternating between hash chains.
Now that I think about it, this might be less than ideal since the kth+1 hash will be the payment_hash of the kth hash, though I don't see how this could be exploited really, just a funny gimmick.

I think you genuinely seem to misunderstand how payments are done through the lightning network, so I don't really get all the negative vibes in this thread here.

[shellandbull]

@LoyceV

Clearly, you're missing my point. If you want to run a business, you should never be rude. Talking about running a business: how's your gambling license doing?

I'm sorry who are you to tell me what to do, think or say? What's wrong with your little brain?  

I wonder how that goes down irl for you. I'm sure you don't because I bet no one wants to be around you :-)

I run on a no asshole rule basis -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule#:~:text=The%20theme%20of%20this%20book,the%20same%20degree%20of%20awfulness%22.

You're an asshole you don't get service, easy. Move on with your day.

Talking about running a business: how's your gambling license doing?

  Really mature, so I guess you're white knighting your way into seeing this fail because you can't even understand how it works?

No wonder BTC and crypto are treated as a public enemy, specially when goofs like you seem to be "community gold"

Where's all your tax returns for every BTC you've ever owned? I'd love to see those.

Why don't you publish them here? Otherwise we can't verify.

Oh actually why don't I make it a full time job to find out who you are, and if you've correctly reported all your coins?

I mean there's a big paper trail of comments in this forum so I'm sure we can build a persona out of that. I bet you use the same username for everything across the net as well :-) I might give it a little go

The legislation in which this enterprise is based might have a permit. The legislation where this enterprise is based might not have a requirement to identify itself.

You're now going to say it's impossible to trust it.

Then why is Satoshi Nakamoto not a fraud? Wasn't he called a fraud when btc just started? I bet he ran into a million people like you, but unlike me, he chose to ignore it, which I will from now on.

@AdolfinWolf

Yes it's true the preimage for us only "exists" is known once the invoice is settled, because YOU have to reveal it in order to claim the payment that was made to the payment_hash (a hash of the PREIMAGE)

That's my point

Since a preimage is really just the equivalent of a random sha hash, you could start with a good secret and then make a hash of a hash n times, and replay that. Once the new bet is placed you can reveal the old hash to everyone in order to prove you're not alternating between hash chains.
Now that I think about it, this might be less than ideal since the kth+1 hash will be the payment_hash of the kth hash, though I don't see how this could be exploited really, just a funny gimmick.

I think you genuinely seem to misunderstand how payments are done through the lightning network, so I don't really get all the negative vibes in this thread here.

You're going down the route of a hypothetical case where I am in fact trying to supply a preimage to game out a randomness function thats deterministic based on an input. Or that I've altered the lightning protocol in a way where preimage generation is fixed.

Not what's happening not what I'm doing. Have you read the verify section of the site?

The only things that I do see offering more transparency are:

1) Get an audit from a third party - link to it from the page. Some eth contracts do this. I don't think it helps them appear as more transparent
2) Offer a "longer" receipt. Where you see each interaction with the lightning node, so you can see exactly what params were supplied for each time you interacted with it
3) Have a multi-seed setup where seed A) is supplied by the user and seed B) is supplied by me and rotated constantly, completely public

None of these ^^^ are things that other apps in the same space do.