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Author Topic: Account ownership and way forward  (Read 237 times)
Yawa2020 (OP)
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September 19, 2022, 09:04:51 AM
Merited by Cookdata (2), Maestro75 (1), lovesmayfamilis (1)
 #1

After having a series of observations, I discovered that there are no formal rules governing the buying or selling of Forum accounts. Despite how large the forum is, there are supposed to be some rules that must be adhered to when accounts are sold or transferred.
I discovered this thread 
account change hand, and checking the trust feedback of the affected account  trust feedback.
I realize that if there are standard rules governing the transfer of account and the victim complies with the forum's standards for account selling or changing ownership, there won't be any problems with such trust feedback.
By the way, I don't see any reason why account selling or transfer of account should be allowed in the first place. It's not that difficult to create a forum account so why should account selling be allowed? But Since the forum already permits account selling, who am I to challenge it?
Quote
18. Having multiple accounts and account sales are allowed, but account sales are discouraged.
You cannot allow and discourage something at the same time. This is a contradiction. I believe that particular rule should be reviewed; either selling accounts should be completely prohibited or allow for the avoidance of future issues like this.

What is the way forward?
In my opinion, the following methods and procedures should be followed when changing account ownership.

- Formal announcement should be made prior to change of account details such as email and password with a signed message

- All deals should be completed with prove if possible

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.

- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.

- Change of account email should have limit to avoid multiple change of ownership within a short time.

I believe that the above will, in some way, help to reduce the scams associated with account changes and to also discourage account selling.
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September 19, 2022, 09:10:31 AM
 #2

You cannot allow and discourage something at the same time. This is a contradiction.
When you join a platform, you must accept its rules, terms of service.

Account exchange (buying / selling) is allowed but discouraged. Do you know why it is discouraged?

- Unfair. Account exchange should happen with higher ranked accounts like Hero member or Legendary member. Even before the kick off of merit system, it needs months to reach to these ranks. After the kickoff of merit system, it is more challenging to collect enough merit to rank up to these ranks.
- Possibly scam. Posting on behalf of higher ranked accounts make your posts and especially thread announcements look more trusted. That can be abused by scammers who want to get a Hero or Legendary account for thread announcement for easily scam efforts.
Most of exchanged accounts are from past hacks years ago and most of them used for scam or bounty spam on the forum. Discouraged!

It is not prohibited entirely because it is impossible to verify ownership of past accounts as lot of things have been changed many times on the forum, from head admin role to code and security.



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September 19, 2022, 09:18:49 AM
 #3

By the way, I don't see any reason why account selling or transfer of account should be allowed in the first place. It's not that difficult to create a forum account so why should account selling be allowed? But Since the forum already permits account selling, who am I to challenge it?

As it was said multiple times in the past, if the forum would disallow this or would impose some more difficult rules, people will just sell their accounts somewhere else.

- Formal announcement should be made prior to change of account details such as email and password with a signed message

- All deals should be completed with prove if possible

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.

Yeah, this is not gonna happen. Since buying/selling accounts is usually for shady reasons, nobody would say that publicly, since red tag will follow sooner or later.

- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.

This may not be such a bad idea. Would certainly make hacks less worthy/fruitful.
But this means that everybody will need to have a bitcoin address stacked, since it's the only clear verification the forum has. And this is not a requirement now.

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September 19, 2022, 09:28:55 AM
 #4

Yeah, this is not gonna happen. Since buying/selling accounts is usually for shady reasons, nobody would say that publicly, since red tag will follow sooner or later.
Exactly my point! Account selling should be discouraged in all means hence, I came up with that thought knowing it won't be possible to publicly publish such announcements.
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September 19, 2022, 09:30:11 AM
 #5

It's no secret that buying accounts will be of interest either to scammers or bounty hunters who are going to participate in signature companies. 
I agree with you that the rules should be more specific. Either you can buy it or you can't. But in the rules, we see there is a small note that this is not welcome, so the one who bought should be prepared for any outcome in the future. I know purchased accounts are tagged on a case-by-case basis, although buying and impersonating someone else is a sign of fraud. And such accounts need to have a negative tag by default. 
This has been brought up many times, but until now the rules remain as they were at the beginning, so OP, you have made fair comments, but they will not change anything.

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September 19, 2022, 09:33:02 AM
 #6

Yeah, this is not gonna happen. Since buying/selling accounts is usually for shady reasons, nobody would say that publicly, since red tag will follow sooner or later.
Exactly my point! Account selling should be discouraged in all means hence, I came up with that thought knowing it won't be possible to publicly publish such announcements.

You seem to have missed what I wrote above that, so I'll quote it again:

As it was said multiple times in the past, if the forum would disallow this or would impose some more difficult rules, people will just sell their accounts somewhere else.

So declaring it "against the rules" would do nothing good/useful.
On the other hand, the risk of getting red tag on those accounts (i.e. the accounts that changed hands) is quite a discouragement, isn't it?

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September 19, 2022, 09:45:38 AM
 #7

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.
Members here change their email addresses for so many reasons, especially security related, sorry this can't work, everyone, of any rank should change their email whenever they want and feel the need to.
- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.

- Change of account email should have limit to avoid multiple change of ownership within a short time.
Bruh...i feel the problem of account sales is rather inconspicuous to a great extent in order to start complicating things with the forum system, 'don't try to fix what's not broken'.

This topic is for meta anyway.

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September 19, 2022, 09:51:41 AM
 #8

I like the suggestions, but except these two:

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.
That kind of a rule is sheep in wolves clothing. What is password is forgotten. This is invasion of users' rights of account ownership.

- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.
Why? Even on exchanges that people have money, they can be able to login easily after a long period of time.

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September 19, 2022, 09:55:00 AM
 #9

<snip>
I'm sorry to say I don't understand what your point clearly and this reply got me more confused. As in where else can they sell the account if not here? I mean the forum.
That kind of a rule is sheep in wolves clothing. What is password is forgotten. This is invasion of users' rights of account ownership.
You mean what if the password is forgotten right? Well, I didn't say the password should not be changed but the email. I hope you get it right now.
Quote
Why? Even on exchanges that people have money, they can be able to login easily after a long period of time.
Exchange sessions do expires and asks for verification when you try to log in after your session expired.
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September 19, 2022, 09:59:16 AM
 #10

I'm sorry to say I don't understand what your point clearly and this reply got me more confused. As in where else can they sell the account if not here? I mean the forum.

In the same way some try to sell here now and then reddit or Twitter accounts, for example, they can try to sell bitcointalk accounts on other bitcoin-related social media platforms (other forums, discord, telegram channels, whatever). Probably some even do that (i.e. right now) to try to go under the radar, I don't know. But the (bitcoin) world is bigger than just bitcointalk (although most "places" may not deserve attention, this is still a reality).

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September 19, 2022, 10:05:30 AM
 #11

In the same way some try to sell here now and then reddit or Twitter accounts, for example, they can try to sell bitcointalk accounts on other bitcoin-related social media platforms (other forums, discord, telegram channels, whatever). Probably some even do that (i.e. right now) to try to go under the radar, I don't know. But the (bitcoin) world is bigger than just bitcointalk (although most "places" may not deserve attention, this is still a reality).
I think I grabbed your points now. Thanks! but I don't see that workable if there are strict rules here. The buyers will be cautious due to the fear of repercussions that might come aftermath.
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September 19, 2022, 10:06:50 AM
 #12

@Yawa2020, do you know that once in the past it was quite normal to sell/buy BTT accounts? I think that sometime during 2015, a change was introduced where such practice became undesirable, but not prohibited. Then some members started tagging all the accounts that would be involved in such activities in any way, even if it was only about the intention to buy/sell, without it actually happening.

I think that the current way of dealing with this problem is not ideal, but since there is a merit system, it is much more difficult, so to speak, to produce high-quality BTT accounts that would then be offered for sale. No matter how the rules are set, there will always be people who will find a way to do what they want, but there will always be those who will detect their bad intentions.

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.

That rule would not make sense, because what if a user who is a Hero/Legendary comes to a situation where the provider through which he has e-mail no longer exists? Therefore, the option to change the e-mail must always be available, regardless of possible manipulation. In addition, some sellers of BTT accounts even offer the option for the buyer to receive an original e-mail with a password and private key of the signed address - and the only way to notice that the owner has changed is in the writing style.

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September 19, 2022, 10:45:10 AM
 #13

@Yawa2020, do you know that once in the past it was quite normal to sell/buy BTT accounts? I think that sometime during 2015, a change was introduced where such practice became undesirable, but not prohibited. Then some members started tagging all the accounts that would be involved in such activities in any way, even if it was only about the intention to buy/sell, without it actually happening.

there was even a service for calculating the value of forum profiles https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1142314.0
I think it is at least until serious abuse is recognised by buying accounts.
now I can't even remember the last time a serious case happened, where a high-ranked and active account was sold. it is obvious that the current method still gives some results.

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September 19, 2022, 11:14:29 AM
 #14

You mean what if the password is forgotten right? Well, I didn't say the password should not be changed but the email. I hope you get it right now.
You still do not understand me.

If you want to change your password, you will need to reset it. An email would be sent it to your email (once you click on forgot password on bitcointalk login page) which is a link that contains a password reset page where you can change to new password. Without the email, password reset is not possible.

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September 19, 2022, 11:31:35 AM
 #15

- Accounts from hero to legendary rank should not be allowed to change email in order not to be able to sell such accounts.

Ridiculous, have you considered email provider could shut down it's service?

- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.

Not ideal option if we want more people participate in this forum. Additionally, it'd waste moderator/admin time.

- Change of account email should have limit to avoid multiple change of ownership within a short time.

It'll annoy few user and i doubt it's effective option. The seller could sell both Bitcointalk account and email address at same time, so buyer only need to change Bitcointalk and email password.

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September 19, 2022, 11:40:01 AM
 #16

Without the email, password reset is not possible.
I do understand your point perfectly but it seems you're getting the whole thing wrong. I'm not saying the email should be removed from the account entirely as you portray to understand. What I mean is that you shouldn't be allow to change the email but you can still recover your password if you have access to that particular email linked with your account.

Members here change their email addresses for so many reasons, especially security related, sorry this can't work, everyone, of any rank should change their email whenever they want and feel the need to.
If that's the case then why do people raise concern when they noticed that a user changed his/her email? If nobody cares, then account selling will continue on a steady basis.
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September 19, 2022, 11:50:47 AM
Last edit: September 19, 2022, 08:07:52 PM by Charles-Tim
 #17

I do understand your point perfectly but it seems you're getting the whole thing wrong. I'm not saying the email should be removed from the account entirely as you portray to understand. What I mean is that you shouldn't be allow to change the email but you can still recover your password if you have access to that particular email linked with your account.
What if the email has been forgotten? Password can be used to change the email. And if the password is forgetting, the email can be used to reset the password. Somehow, these are connected.

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September 20, 2022, 02:05:23 PM
 #18

If that's the case then why do people raise concern when they noticed that a user changed his/her email? If nobody cares, then account selling will continue on a steady basis.
If there is no strict restriction on this issue, people will continue to sell accounts while claiming they only changed their emails or passwords.
I've seen some threads discussing the implementation of 2FA in forum accounts, which I believe will help to reduce quick and immediate account compromise, as each user will use the 2FA security to strengthen their account security.

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lovesmayfamilis
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September 22, 2022, 07:19:52 AM
 #19


If that's the case then why do people raise concern when they noticed that a user changed his/her email? If nobody cares, then account selling will continue on a steady basis.

Accounts sales continue. Now, many telegram channels sell accounts from the forum. The condition for the sale of which is not to change the password.
Here is an example of one purchased account.

There is a rule that is not to change the password after buying an account. I'm complying so this account isn't locked.

If someone wants to sell their account, they will sell it anyway, having thought through the process of buying and selling, everything can be done discreetly.
But all the same, the purchased accounts are calculated according to other factors, which in the end still play against the buyer.

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Maestro75
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September 22, 2022, 08:03:39 AM
 #20

Quote
18. Having multiple accounts and account sales are allowed, but account sales are discouraged.
You cannot allow and discourage something at the same time. This is a contradiction. I believe that particular rule should be reviewed; either selling accounts should be completely prohibited or allow for the avoidance of future issues like this.

I also feel it is a big contradiction too. That part of the forum rule should be edited. It is either yes or no and not lukewarmness. The admins should let us know clearly what the forum stand on account sales is.

- Accounts not active for a year should be temporarily disabled and can only be activated after passing some verification that seems suitable by the administrators.

This is a nice suggestion. It will help reduce account hacks in the forum if implemented.

Yeah, this is not gonna happen. Since buying/selling accounts is usually for shady reasons

This is not true in all cases. What about those who only need it so they can get into bounty and signature campaigns in order to earn? Or you think there are no members like that?


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