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Author Topic: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o  (Read 612 times)
cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 14, 2022, 12:40:59 PM
 #41



The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper.

So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App.

The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him.



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n0nce
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October 14, 2022, 11:13:44 PM
 #42

The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper.
First you said that cryptoplatz is well suited to back up software wallets whose seed has already been exposed to an online device anyway (fair point, as I said).
But now you claim that actually, people will want to use cryptoplatz when they have 1BTC or more in a wallet, since paper is not good enough?

I personally don't believe anyone should store roughly $20,000 USD (at the time of writing) in a software wallet (except maybe exchanges since they need it for their operation).
This means the two statements appear as contradictory.

Most people should want to store +1BTC on a wallet that has been created on either an airgapped, offline PC or mayyybe on an airgapped hardware wallets; in both cases, the seed never left the device except being shown on screen, allowing the user to write it down on paper.
Do keep in mind that they can easily do 10 copies of said paper and laminate them (waterproofing), to store in various locations. All offline, all without any security concerns.
Why would such users want to now enter their very secure seed in a phone app?


Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the concept makes no sense to me.
Creating a seed phrase on a smart card? Maybe. Using a smart card to store a seed phrase that had been securely created on a different hardware device and requires typing it into an app? That makes really no sense.

So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App.

The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him.
You missed the point, though. I never said it was insecure storing data on a smartcard chip or easy to extract from it.
Instead, my concern is typing out your seed into any software. Users should never need to type their seed in any program except for restoring a lost wallet, and do so on an offline, airgapped PC that runs its OS in RAM, and is completely wiped by rebooting.

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cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 15, 2022, 04:01:31 AM
 #43

The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper.
First you said that cryptoplatz is well suited to back up software wallets whose seed has already been exposed to an online device anyway (fair point, as I said).
But now you claim that actually, people will want to use cryptoplatz when they have 1BTC or more in a wallet, since paper is not good enough?

I personally don't believe anyone should store roughly $20,000 USD (at the time of writing) in a software wallet (except maybe exchanges since they need it for their operation).
This means the two statements appear as contradictory.

Most people should want to store +1BTC on a wallet that has been created on either an airgapped, offline PC or mayyybe on an airgapped hardware wallets; in both cases, the seed never left the device except being shown on screen, allowing the user to write it down on paper.
Do keep in mind that they can easily do 10 copies of said paper and laminate them (waterproofing), to store in various locations. All offline, all without any security concerns.
Why would such users want to now enter their very secure seed in a phone app?
https://i.postimg.cc/fWPz3SLQ/image.jpg

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the concept makes no sense to me.
Creating a seed phrase on a smart card? Maybe. Using a smart card to store a seed phrase that had been securely created on a different hardware device and requires typing it into an app? That makes really no sense.

So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App.

The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him.
You missed the point, though. I never said it was insecure storing data on a smartcard chip or easy to extract from it.
Instead, my concern is typing out your seed into any software. Users should never need to type their seed in any program except for restoring a lost wallet, and do so on an offline, airgapped PC that runs its OS in RAM, and is completely wiped by rebooting.

I understand your point.

How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed?

Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city?

We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option.

Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper.

We need help people to store their seed better.

Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe.
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October 15, 2022, 11:22:29 AM
 #44

I understand your point.

How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed?
I don't think very many, but there are definitely a lot of hardware wallet users who can securely display their seed words directly on the device's screen and copy it to paper by hand. I wouldn't want them exposing their securely created and stored seeds to an online operating system with internet access and persistency, as it defeats the purpose of them purchasing the hardware wallet.

Furthermore, I do think there needs to be more education and anyone with multiple Bitcoin should get themselves an offline PC just for working with seeds. Besides the fact that this doesn't need to be a separate device from what you already own. In case you're not familiar: https://tails.boum.org/ This boots off USB and lives in RAM, with Electrum preinstalled and no network.

Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city?
Exactly: he had the keys on his hard drive. I'm saying people should do their backups on multiple instances of laminated paper or steel washers instead of relying on electronics.
Cheap backup mechanisms that allow you to have redundancy at any budget. Buying 10 'cryptoplatz' devices is not an option for most.

We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option.
Why is paper not a good option? Encryption just makes it more difficult to recover funds. If my heirs find my cleartext paper and steel seeds, they can restore them. If they find an encrypted plastic card, they could mistake it for an old credit card and throw it out.
Not to mention that you can also encrypt a paper seed before writing it down. And hardware wallets like BitBox and Passport already create electronic, encrypted backups on microSD card, as well. In case you don't have a physically secure location for paper backups..

Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper.
If they already exposed it, I already said, there is little additional risk entering it into one more application. However, do you think that someone who doesn't even bother writing the seed on paper, will go and buy a dedicated seed backup device?
In my opinion, the money is better spent just buying a hardware wallet instead, transferring funds over and backing up on steel for 5 bucks.
n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig


     Very nicely readable 6mm letters (tape holds washer in place) | Prototypes & final version. Improved letter spacing & tolerances.



This is pretty much how it works

Backup pure material cost: 4€
Requirements: stamps ~20€, jig ~10€
Go big or go home! 30x10.5mm washers!
6mm tall letters
Edit: Any size of washer and stamp is now possible using the openSCAD file I provide for free below. Enjoy!

[...]

Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe.
It's true that there are different products for different people, I still just don't see the target user for cryptoplatz.
Your title says: 'help us! Shocked' and that's what I'm trying to do.

So you're saying the target user is someone 'looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe'.
Let's assume 2 users, for sake of simplicity, this should cover 99% of Bitcoin users.
Software wallet user
(1) Why does this user need to 'store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device' if it's already living in an online, insecure device? First of all, the amounts are (should be) pretty small that you hold in a software wallet. Secondly, they can apply encryption to their seed and store it on paper / steel or simply buy a strong personal safe and put the backup inside there.
(2) If they can't be bothered spending money on a hardware wallet, why would they spend money on their backup?

Hardware wallet user
(1) The better hardware wallets already create encrypted, electronic backups for you on SD cards, such as Passport, BitBox and ColdCard.
(2) Why would they move their seed off their already 'offline, strong device' (hardware wallet) into an application, to save it to another 'offline, strong device'? It is a huge security risk and totally unnecessary as they already have a secure mechanism to do all they need.

In summary, people willing (or 'required' due to larger BTC holdings) to spend money on their Bitcoin storage, should (or already do) buy a hardware wallet with built-in encrypted electronic backup mechanism instead. People who don't want or can spend money on a hardware wallet, won't buy this product either. Sure, it's a bit cheaper, but they'll be better off saving up for one more month and getting a proper hardware wallet.



Finally, I just don't like the idea of getting people accustomed to entering their seed phrases here and there. The seed phrase should only be entered into Electrum or similar trusted software (preferably on a live-booted Tails OS) when restoring a wallet. You can also do this on some hardware wallets.
Normalizing phone and desktop apps that ask for your seed phrase for anything else, just increases the likeliness of people to enter it elsewhere.

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cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 15, 2022, 07:19:17 PM
 #45

Thank you for your contribution
cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 16, 2022, 08:57:30 PM
 #46

I understand your point.

How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed?
I don't think very many, but there are definitely a lot of hardware wallet users who can securely display their seed words directly on the device's screen and copy it to paper by hand. I wouldn't want them exposing their securely created and stored seeds to an online operating system with internet access and persistency, as it defeats the purpose of them purchasing the hardware wallet.

Furthermore, I do think there needs to be more education and anyone with multiple Bitcoin should get themselves an offline PC just for working with seeds. Besides the fact that this doesn't need to be a separate device from what you already own. In case you're not familiar: https://tails.boum.org/ This boots off USB and lives in RAM, with Electrum preinstalled and no network.

Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city?
Exactly: he had the keys on his hard drive. I'm saying people should do their backups on multiple instances of laminated paper or steel washers instead of relying on electronics.
Cheap backup mechanisms that allow you to have redundancy at any budget. Buying 10 'cryptoplatz' devices is not an option for most.

We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option.
Why is paper not a good option? Encryption just makes it more difficult to recover funds. If my heirs find my cleartext paper and steel seeds, they can restore them. If they find an encrypted plastic card, they could mistake it for an old credit card and throw it out.
Not to mention that you can also encrypt a paper seed before writing it down. And hardware wallets like BitBox and Passport already create electronic, encrypted backups on microSD card, as well. In case you don't have a physically secure location for paper backups..

Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper.
If they already exposed it, I already said, there is little additional risk entering it into one more application. However, do you think that someone who doesn't even bother writing the seed on paper, will go and buy a dedicated seed backup device?
In my opinion, the money is better spent just buying a hardware wallet instead, transferring funds over and backing up on steel for 5 bucks.
n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig

https://i.postimg.cc/QMNkXyjh/n0nce-stamps-0.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/bJyt0DZP/n0nce-stamps-1.jpg
     Very nicely readable 6mm letters (tape holds washer in place) | Prototypes & final version. Improved letter spacing & tolerances.


https://i.postimg.cc/8JGddw9V/n0nce-stamp.gif
This is pretty much how it works

Backup pure material cost: 4€
Requirements: stamps ~20€, jig ~10€
Go big or go home! 30x10.5mm washers!
6mm tall letters
Edit: Any size of washer and stamp is now possible using the openSCAD file I provide for free below. Enjoy!

[...]

Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe.
It's true that there are different products for different people, I still just don't see the target user for cryptoplatz.
Your title says: 'help us! Shocked' and that's what I'm trying to do.

So you're saying the target user is someone 'looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe'.
Let's assume 2 users, for sake of simplicity, this should cover 99% of Bitcoin users.
Software wallet user
(1) Why does this user need to 'store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device' if it's already living in an online, insecure device? First of all, the amounts are (should be) pretty small that you hold in a software wallet. Secondly, they can apply encryption to their seed and store it on paper / steel or simply buy a strong personal safe and put the backup inside there.
(2) If they can't be bothered spending money on a hardware wallet, why would they spend money on their backup?

Hardware wallet user
(1) The better hardware wallets already create encrypted, electronic backups for you on SD cards, such as Passport, BitBox and ColdCard.
(2) Why would they move their seed off their already 'offline, strong device' (hardware wallet) into an application, to save it to another 'offline, strong device'? It is a huge security risk and totally unnecessary as they already have a secure mechanism to do all they need.

In summary, people willing (or 'required' due to larger BTC holdings) to spend money on their Bitcoin storage, should (or already do) buy a hardware wallet with built-in encrypted electronic backup mechanism instead. People who don't want or can spend money on a hardware wallet, won't buy this product either. Sure, it's a bit cheaper, but they'll be better off saving up for one more month and getting a proper hardware wallet.



Finally, I just don't like the idea of getting people accustomed to entering their seed phrases here and there. The seed phrase should only be entered into Electrum or similar trusted software (preferably on a live-booted Tails OS) when restoring a wallet. You can also do this on some hardware wallets.
Normalizing phone and desktop apps that ask for your seed phrase for anything else, just increases the likeliness of people to enter it elsewhere.

I understand your point and I will try to explain:

You say people don't need to buy CryptoPlatz Vault because already exist hard wallet. Let me be very clear, CryptoPlatz Vault it is not to substitute cold wallets or hot wallet, this is the first point ok? CryptoPlatz Vault it is to substitute:

1) The paper where people write the seed phrase (recovery phrase) - paper is fragile (water, fire, bugs...)
2) Metal plates is not encrypted, so if somebody put the hands on your metal plate, you lost your crypto. CryptoPlatz Vault allow you to save your seed recovery phrase encrypted with AES-256 (password changed to a hash with MD5 first)

Another point is, you say people must use Electrum with live OS. For advanced user ok, but Bitcoin now is used for a lot of people. You must incentive than to keep the Bitcoin with their, not with exchanges. But to do this, they need to have easy and safe ways to use cryptocurrency.

I know a lot of people that have cryptocurrency, and do not know how to use Ledger, they think is very complicated  Shocked

I know people, that have more than 20 seed recovery phrase, imagine how to handle this with metal plates or paper?

A lot of Bitcoins is lost for years, because people formatted the HD with seed or the paper with the seed get fired for example.

For now we already have an iOS and Android version running. Soon we will launch version for MAC, Windows and Linux. So you can use CryptoPlatz software on Linux, offline, to store the seed encrypted.

Again, maybe you have only one seed recovery phrase and I understand you are advanced user, but this is not the common.

If people don't have a easy way to keep the seed recovery phrase protected. They will leave on a text file on Windows.

A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault.

I hope you understand my point of view.
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October 16, 2022, 10:42:06 PM
Merited by dkbit98 (1)
 #47

We're running in circles, but since you mentioned it again:

A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault.
They use MetaMask, so they need to save their seed phrase offline, encrypted? Why do they need that? Someone breaking into their house can also just steal the PC, where the seed is stored, unencrypted, in MetaMask, no?
You mentioned that a text file is not secure. Sure; a virus can access this file. A virus can also access MetaMask's wallet file; right? Where is the benefit of storing an online seed on an encrypted offline device?

Again, in my opinion, encrypted, offline backups only make sense if your main wallet is offline, too. But since offline wallets can't usually connect to the cryptoplatz vault, there's no way of transferring the seed except through an online device, which destroys the whole purpose of it all.

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cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 17, 2022, 10:16:11 AM
 #48

We're running in circles, but since you mentioned it again:

A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault.
They use MetaMask, so they need to save their seed phrase offline, encrypted? Why do they need that? Someone breaking into their house can also just steal the PC, where the seed is stored, unencrypted, in MetaMask, no?
You mentioned that a text file is not secure. Sure; a virus can access this file. A virus can also access MetaMask's wallet file; right? Where is the benefit of storing an online seed on an encrypted offline device?

Again, in my opinion, encrypted, offline backups only make sense if your main wallet is offline, too. But since offline wallets can't usually connect to the cryptoplatz vault, there's no way of transferring the seed except through an online device, which destroys the whole purpose of it all.

You are wrong, Metamask save all the information encrypted on the computer, so if somebody steal the PC, he need to break the encryption.

But if the user leave the seed on a paper or on plate without be encrypted, the thief you have access to the cryptocurrencies.

So if the user use CryptoPlatz Vault, to store the seed, thief will not have access to the seed recovery phrase.
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October 17, 2022, 07:49:00 PM
 #49

So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App.

The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him.
How would people know if their card came preloaded with seed words for 1 Bitcoin?
I don't know if you are claiming that your encryption is impossible to crack, but consider sending this ten cards to known hackers and security experts, not to some random crypto normies and metamask users.

How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed?
More than you think, and you can count in all signing devices like SeedSigner and air-gapped hardware wallets Passport, ColdCard, Keystone and others in that mix.
It's not that hard to own old laptop with no direct internet connection, and it can have full disk encryption in addition to file encryption.

A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault.
I wonder how did they survive for so long with one  Cheesy
With your product people need to use smartphone and they are all connected to internet all the time, plus the cell tower connection.
I don't care really about shitty metamask wallet and how they are handling their supported centralized coins.
 

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CASINSPORTSBOOK
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n0nce
Hero Member
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Activity: 882
Merit: 5818


not your keys, not your coins!


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October 17, 2022, 11:07:24 PM
 #50

You are wrong, Metamask save all the information encrypted on the computer, so if somebody steal the PC, he need to break the encryption.
Alright, that rules out the thief scenario. But whenever the wallet is used, the user inputs some password that decrypts the seed and allows the software to access private keys for signing.
This means that if they have a virus dormant waiting just for that event to happen, it can access the seed. In conclusion, they still don't need an offline backup if using a software wallet, at least not to gain any extra protection from hackers.

But if the user leave the seed on a paper or on plate without be encrypted, the thief you have access to the cryptocurrencies.

So if the user use CryptoPlatz Vault, to store the seed, thief will not have access to the seed recovery phrase.
Or the user could have an actual vault to store valuables and seeds. Or they could have encrypted microSD backups laying around, of their hardware wallet, created offline - by their hardware wallet.

These backup files are encrypted with a backup password that is derived from a combination of the device hash and the current seed value stored on Passport. This ensures that your backup password remains the same across multiple backups rather than getting a unique password for each backup, which is extremely inconvenient.

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cryptoplatz (OP)
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October 18, 2022, 01:31:58 PM
 #51

With your product people need to use smartphone and they are all connected to internet all the time, plus the cell tower connection.
I don't care really about shitty metamask wallet and how they are handling their supported centralized coins.

With the desktop version that we are developing you can choose to use on iOS, Android, Linux, Mac or Windows.

they still don't need an offline backup if using a software wallet,

Offline backup is always necessary, because this exist seed recovery phrase. Because if the computer or smartphone crash, it is easy to recovery funds with the backup

Or the user could have an actual vault to store valuables and seeds. Or they could have encrypted microSD backups laying around, of their hardware wallet, created offline - by their hardware wallet.

Yes, microSD can be used to store encrypted seed recovery phrase. But, few users know how to do that and is not resistant to water, fire...

So maybe, CryptoPlatz Vault is just no for you guys, but for users that have cryptocurrencies on Trust Wallet, Metamask, Ledger, Trezor, Exodus and want a easy, safe, encrypted and offline device to store the seed recovery phrase.

Thank you for your advise! Help us a lot!


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