Best Way to Backup Up a Ballet Wallet

[MrSlattery]

I use a Ballet Wallet I ordered on Amazon.  I trust it based on the historic integrity of the company's founder.  I researched and listened to a couple of his seminars on YouTube.  In addition, I am not aware of anyone who has had a security breach due to the companies manufacturing process.  It seems to me that his company's success and reputation as well as his personal reputation are at stake.  In other words, if there were a security issue that was traced to the production process his whole business model would implode.

The one issue that I am still trying to resolve is how to back up the Ballet Wallet.  I've seen a hardware device that uses metal plates to engrave a key code based on the words you used.  The idea is that they are indestructible by fire and more durable than paper.  However, since the ballet wallet is not using words any backup methodology using words will not work.  I am a little concerned with the fact that if anyone were to get physical possession of the wallet, they would have my bitcoin.  If I bury it somewhere or hide it and die then I can't pass the Bitcoin on to my family.  So, I am open to anyone with ideas on how best to back up the Ballet Wallet.

[Charles-Tim]

I checked the paper card wallet reviews on YouTube, these are the two I noticed the wallet is highly not necessary and not recommendable:

https://youtu.be/xiFaL5BDgzU
https://youtu.be/PTp_LbGpkLY

The private key was said in the first review that it was created in China, while the passphrase was created in Las Vegas. Not your keys not your coins.

The passphrase and the private key are on the paper card wallet, anyone that sees it can steal all your coins.

Peel the public key back and your private key would be seen. Also the passphrase is written on the paper card wallet.

It gives false sense of offline security because you can spend from the wallet anytime. Some people will spend from paper wallet and the private key is no more cold storage.

On paper wallets, because the private key is an online one already after spending from the wallet, they will move the remaining coins to another addresses that its private key is offline.

Although, there are some ways you can spend from it in a way the private key would still be offline, but people will always exposed their private key online is what I think about this wallet.

According to their site, it is $35 dollars. That is costly for me when it make use of private key. I can just add some money to it and buy seed phrase hardware wallet instead.

I would prefer seed phrase hardware wallet because of many recommendable reasons, especially that the seed phrase and the keys are not reviewed by the wallet, if that can be argued with hardware wallet like Trezor, then also because the passphrase used are not stored on the seed phrase hardware wallet.

[n0nce]

~

Is it this product? https://www.ballet.com/en/whatisballet/

If so, this is not even a hardware wallet in the first place! It only holds a single private key, which you can only view by peeling off the sticker.
You can easily (and much more securely) make this yourself. It's highly insecure to just use a private key that someone generated for you, as they can easily have a copy of it and sweep it immediately after funding, or later down the road.


Anyhow, for backing this thing up, you'd want to back up the private key here (which you could engrave into metal), but then the sticker is peeled and I'm not sure that you can stick it back on.



Damn, this is so misleading. They mention BIP38, which is just private key encryption. Meanwhile you want BIP39, which gives you a wallet that deterministically creates keys from a seed phrase. I'm sure that's why they put BIP38 in the advertisement, as otherwise it's not really a feature to brag about.


[1] Sure, their wallet requires no set-up. Because they did it in advance - making it wholly insecure in the process!
[2] What's the use of a durable wallet when it's totally insecure? Also, you can easily back up real hardware wallets on steel washers or plates.
[3] What's the use of a wallet that doesn't require firmware updates, when it's totally insecure? Also, you don't need to install those updates, and if you really fuck up flashing, you still have your steel backup anyway.
[4] Wrong on so many fronts:
    [4.1] What's the use of a wallet that is not hackable through USB if it's totally insecure?
    [4.2] This is just a metal plate with a private key printed on it. To spend any funds, it absolutely needs to be imported into a software wallet, making it susceptible to all the attack vectors of a software wallet. Except if you're skilled to use an airgapped computer with Tails; but then you don't need this product in the first place.
    [4.3] Airgapped hardware wallets don't need to be connected to a computer.


Lastly, you can do this for free, in a secure way, e.g. using Tails:
https://tails.boum.org/
It is called a paper wallet.

[NeuroticFish]

[1] Sure, their wallet requires no set-up. Because they did it in advance - making it wholly insecure in the process!

While I agree it's a fancier and arguably less secure paper wallet simply because you don't know how careful they were in the process, I would not call it insecure simply because as we all know there are other similar collectibles funded with very big number of bitcoin and they are still safe and secure, so it is possible to be done right.

I do have a ballet card, I've won it at a free raffle here on bitcointalk, it's a small denomination (0.001BTC) and being this small I've funded it.
I find it a nice collectible and a nice way to give a present, but, call me paranoid, I would not keep large funds on it. If need be I know how to make myself securely a paper wallet (plus I have a hardware wallet too).

[n0nce]

[1] Sure, their wallet requires no set-up. Because they did it in advance - making it wholly insecure in the process!

While I agree it's a fancier and arguably less secure paper wallet simply because you don't know how careful they were in the process, I would not call it insecure simply because as we all know there are other similar collectibles funded with very big number of bitcoin and they are still safe and secure, so it is possible to be done right.

From a cryptographic / system security model perspective, I have to flag any private key seen by a third party as 'compromised'.
Of course, we can 'trust me bro' the vendors, but then we can forget about Bitcoin in the first place. The main reason for all of this is having the ability to minimize or fully eliminate trust.

I do have a ballet card, I've won it at a free raffle here on bitcointalk, it's a small denomination (0.001BTC) and being this small I've funded it.
I find it a nice collectible and a nice way to give a present, but, call me paranoid, I would not keep large funds on it. If need be I know how to make myself securely a paper wallet (plus I have a hardware wallet too).

I don't have anything against paper wallets, and not even necessarily against collectibles with embedded private key, but this product is clearly portraying itself as a hardware wallet or even as a better alternative (based on which subforum MrSlattery posted it in, the grift worked), which it most definitely is not. That's why I am so clear about their claims / comparisons and why they are wrong.

[Charles-Tim]

From a cryptographic / system security model perspective, I have to flag any private key seen by a third party as 'compromised'.

Exactly.

Everything about bitcoin supposed to be trustless, a reason not to use the wallet. It is just a paper wallet and nothing more. Not even the cost, but the private key and passphrase that are generated by another people, not the buyer (owner).

I don't have anything against paper wallets, and not even necessarily against collectibles with embedded private key, but this product is clearly portraying itself as a hardware wallet or even as a better alternative (based on which subforum MrSlattery posted it in, the grift worked), which it most definitely is not. That's why I am so clear about their claims / comparisons and why they are wrong.

I do not see it on there website that it is an hardware wallet. This is what I found on their website:

The world's first multi-currency non-electronic physical cryptocurrency wallet, designed for everyday people. Use Ballet to easily store Bitcoin and other

Some sites may be calling it hardware wallet, which is very wrong.

But I do not like this on their website:

No Mnemonic Phrase
REAL Series wallets come ready to use out of the box. Just scan the QR code to deposit crypto to it. No need to worry about writing down and storing a seed phrase.

I think you can understand what I meant.

[joniboini]

From what others have pointed out, OP, I think you should buy a new HW wallet as your cold wallet (that supports seeds generation so you can use the coding method or whatever you preferred), move your funds there and then lock it somewhere safe. If inheritance is your main concern you can also take a look at time-lock transactions. But be careful, some services/devices are also scamming people or at least pretending that they're more secure while in fact, they are not reliable at all.

[Lucius]

I do have a ballet card, I've won it at a free raffle here on bitcointalk, it's a small denomination (0.001BTC) and being this small I've funded it.
I find it a nice collectible and a nice way to give a present, but, call me paranoid, I would not keep large funds on it. If need be I know how to make myself securely a paper wallet (plus I have a hardware wallet too).

It is unbelievable that someone even has the idea to sell such things and advertise them in any connection with hardware wallets, but if someone really buys that paper wallet and thinks they've bought HW, then they're really in trouble like the OP. I can still understand that someone buys such a product because they think it has some kind of collector's value, but everything else outside of that seems wrong to me. If I wanted to give some coins to someone in such a form, then I would do it personally in a correct and safe way, and I would be sure that no one else saw that private key.

[dkbit98]

I use a Ballet Wallet I ordered on Amazon.  I trust it based on the historic integrity of the company's founder.  I researched and listened to a couple of his seminars on YouTube.  In addition, I am not aware of anyone who has had a security breach due to the companies manufacturing process. 

Just because no breach was ever recorded and published doesn't mean that it never happened or that it won't happen sometime in future.
There are just to many complications and risks in manufacturing process, that I never seriously consider purchasing Ballet wallet.
If you are holding lot of Bitcoin on this wallet you are already making a mistake, and I would suggest sending coins to any other real hardware wallet or cold wallet.

If so, this is not even a hardware wallet in the first place! It only holds a single private key, which you can only view by peeling off the sticker.

I wouldn't trust this for storing any serious money, and it's more like collectible instead of hardware wallet, but it looks cool and it can be used for storing some small pocket money for spending.

[n0nce]

I do have a ballet card, I've won it at a free raffle here on bitcointalk, it's a small denomination (0.001BTC) and being this small I've funded it.
I find it a nice collectible and a nice way to give a present, but, call me paranoid, I would not keep large funds on it. If need be I know how to make myself securely a paper wallet (plus I have a hardware wallet too).

It is unbelievable that someone even has the idea to sell such things and advertise them in any connection with hardware wallets, but if someone really buys that paper wallet and thinks they've bought HW, then they're really in trouble like the OP. I can still understand that someone buys such a product because they think it has some kind of collector's value, but everything else outside of that seems wrong to me. If I wanted to give some coins to someone in such a form, then I would do it personally in a correct and safe way, and I would be sure that no one else saw that private key.

I mean for passing around coins in physical form, there are much better ways, such as tried-and-tested / trusted devices like https://opendime.com/.
As far as I know, the keys are generated from users' entropy during a simple setup process, which means CoinKite can't know the seed.

There's no way to verify that, though. That's why I appreciate the open-source and verifiable avalanche noise source (actual circuit from few simple components) on the Passport hardware wallet.
And obviously the ability to import your own custom seed phrase. This allows you to generate it with dice or whatever you deem secure.

But again; these avalanche noise circuits are amazing. You can literally see them on the PCB, take an oscilloscope to it and verify that it does what it's supposed to and that there's no deterministic bullshit going on.

[Charles-Tim]

I wouldn't trust this for storing any serious money, and it's more like collectible instead of hardware wallet, but it looks cool and it can be used for storing some small pocket money for spending.

What I would be insecure about is if anyone got hold of the paper wallet card, and the person know what passphrase is and private key, or if the person know about the paper wallet card, it would be easy for such person to compromise the wallet. I can easily create a paper wallet myself in a way I can backup the private key and use the address for receiving bitcoin which is not large amount but used for small pocket money. But we are not in that era of no seed phrase private key wallet anymore, I will just prefer using online wallet like electrum on my mobile device for it.

Maybe this could be a means bitcoin can be given to someone as gift, but I still see it not advisable in my opinion, I can just add money to it and buy a cheap hardware wallet instead. But I am surprised that some Bitcointalk members are in support of what is not in support of one of the reasons bitcoin was created.

[n0nce]

But we are not in that era of no seed phrase private key wallet anymore, I will just prefer using online wallet like electrum on my mobile device for it.

Usually I wouldn't comment on such a nitpick, but as the lines were blurred by this (in my eyes) paper wallet being discussed in the hardware wallet section, I'd like to point out that Electrum is a hot / software wallet.
Online wallets on the other hand are e.g. when you hold coins in an 'exchange wallet', but also exist(ed) as standalone services. People would literally log into a web service with email / password and simply get a view of their coins with ability to deposit and withdraw & send coins. Obviously that's highly secure and unrecommended - never use online wallets. Just wanted this to be clear.

But I am surprised that some Bitcointalk members are in support of what is not in support of one of the reasons bitcoin was created.

I guess Bitcoin gives you the freedom to use a secure or insecure method, and anything in between. You're not forced to go hardcore-coldstorage-maxi, you're not forced to go online-wallet; there is total freedom of wallet choice. Some users (knowingly) accept a tradeoff of convenience vs. security, but this in here is definitely not it. Pre-printed paper wallets actually have no reason to exist; I agree on that.