Guides for using Bisq

[n0nce]

I assume that using a traditional Bank or even a fintech one (such as Revolut) still links your real identity to some user (the vendor) whom you trust to not gather your information (at least real name and IBAN).

You do 'leak' your banking information to the trading partner if you choose an IBAN bank transfer, but it's not 'linked' in the sense that there is a dataset stored on some server connecting your name and bank account number to that trade or to a Bitcoin address of yours.
Someone could in theory start opening tons of buy and sell offers to gather people's names and bank accounts and then trace what they do with their bought or sold coins.
That could be partly circumvented by checking whether you've traded with that peer yet; that's an information Bisq provides by default. Or mixing.

According to their payment methods[1] almost all of them leave some kind of trace to your real identity - even Amazon cards transactions. The best of them all would be F2F but even that depends on the availability within a country. I wonder, what is your way of buying BTC using Bisq @n0nce and @DireWolfm14?

That's correct. In Europe I use bank transfers, because they work in the whole SEPA region and I reduce the risk of trading partners spying on me by mixing before selling or after buying Bitcoins on Bisq.

[NotATether]

According to their payment methods[1] almost all of them leave some kind of trace to your real identity - even Amazon cards transactions. The best of them all would be F2F but even that depends on the availability within a country. I wonder, what is your way of buying BTC using Bisq @n0nce and @DireWolfm14?

That's correct. In Europe I use bank transfers, because they work in the whole SEPA region and I reduce the risk of trading partners spying on me by mixing before selling or after buying Bitcoins on Bisq.

The big disadvantage is that SEPA only works in European countries and there aren't so many other bank transfer trades on Bisq the last time I checked.

I wouldn't exchange gift cards for coins, especially since Amazon can block its own cards since using them as a form of currency is against their terms of use.

[DireWolfM14]

According to their payment methods[1] almost all of them leave some kind of trace to your real identity - even Amazon cards transactions. The best of them all would be F2F but even that depends on the availability within a country. I wonder, what is your way of buying BTC using Bisq @n0nce and @DireWolfm14?

One of the important things you have to keep in mind about Bisq is that the approved electronic payment methods are largely selected to enhance the safety of the seller.  I reckon privacy is also a prioritized consideration, but I believe safety is higher priority.  As you mentioned there will always be a trace of evidence that could link you to a transaction, even if that trace is purely circumstantial in nature.

I tend to agree that f2f cash trades are likely to provide the most privacy, but in this day and age it would be pretty darn difficult to ensure anonymity.  Unless you left all electronic devices at home, including your modern car, there will be some circumstantial evidence of your presence, potentially linking you to a trade that took place.

Personally I use Zelle to buy and sell using Bisq.  There is a leak of personal data, but in my case it's only my real name and the email address or phone number that's linked to my Zelle account.  No bank data is leaked to the trade partner.  Privacy is maintained by the fact that all the data required to conduct a trade on Bisq is stored on your local machine, and is only made available to your trade partner while a trade is active.  You don't have to worry about your data being leaked or hacked from a centralized server because none of your personal data is stored on any servers.  The only link to your "account" that exists on a Bisq server is the Tor address that you've been assigned by your local client.

[n0nce]

According to their payment methods[1] almost all of them leave some kind of trace to your real identity - even Amazon cards transactions. The best of them all would be F2F but even that depends on the availability within a country. I wonder, what is your way of buying BTC using Bisq @n0nce and @DireWolfm14?

That's correct. In Europe I use bank transfers, because they work in the whole SEPA region and I reduce the risk of trading partners spying on me by mixing before selling or after buying Bitcoins on Bisq.

The big disadvantage is that SEPA only works in European countries and there aren't so many other bank transfer trades on Bisq the last time I checked.

I believe people can open bank accounts in other locations; it's offered by services like TransferWise. That would require to go through KYC though; one of the very things we want to avoid when using Bisq.
On the other hand, the bank you already have / use also has your KYC details.

If you want to go fully bank-less, make sure to receive your paycheck in BTC and / or cash and then do Bisq F2F (cash in hand) trades only.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Privacy invasion is inevitable, unless you're willing to pay for the protection of a F2F trade (if there's F2F trade available at your region). Even if you do, with this minimum liquidity, you're going to be charged by hell of a lot. From a quick Bisq search, the only available F2F offer is made by someone in Spain, and he's charging ~€26,500 for a bitcoin, which means +50% than the market value. 

The best you can do, both effectively and practically, to gain some privacy on your peer-to-peer trades, is to mix.

[NotATether]

I believe people can open bank accounts in other locations; it's offered by services like TransferWise. That would require to go through KYC though; one of the very things we want to avoid when using Bisq.
On the other hand, the bank you already have / use also has your KYC details.

Correct - if you're using Bisq to avoid KYC, trading through a bank transfer, or a fintech who emulates that, kind of defeats the whole purpose of using Bisq as an onramp or offramp.

Too bad there's no foolproof way to determine each financial service's regulatory compliance, inasmuch as they don't sell out your documents to 3rd parties.

[n0nce]

The best you can do, both effectively and practically, to gain some privacy on your peer-to-peer trades, is to mix.

Do keep in mind that 99.99% of people will never live a life without a bank account.
Since trades are P2P, the bank won't know what you bought with / sold for that bank transfer, and through mixing, the trading partner won't know what you did / will do with the coins.

Besides the fact that you still need to have a bank account and therefore share your KYC information with 1 bank, it's an almost perfectly private on- & off-ramp.

Also keep in mind that privacy protection laws in the EU (GDPR) mean that you may want to look into having bank accounts with established banks situated in the EU instead of sketchy startup banks located somewhere else.
These laws give you the legal right to both (1) get access to any of your data they store(d) and (2) have it deleted immediately. These rights aren't for granted and don't exist outside the EU (to my knowledge).

[BlackHatCoiner]

Since trades are P2P, the bank won't know what you bought with / sold for that bank transfer, and through mixing, the trading partner won't know what you did / will do with the coins.

My only concern is if / when the bank asks me to justify what I bought / sold in a specific transaction. They already do it for large amounts, it's called bank secrecy act. I'm not going to sell over 10k in one transaction, but don't banks question the user a little bit arbitrarily? Who tells me they won't do it if I sell regularly small amounts, or that they won't lower the limit?

Besides the fact that you still need to have a bank account and therefore share your KYC information with 1 bank, it's an almost perfectly private on- & off-ramp.

Just a note about KYC: I don't mind much to have KYC submitted to my national bank, as long as my Bitcoin identity is hidden. What I want is privacy regarding whom I send bitcoin, how much bitcoin I have, how much money I cash out for bitcoin, how much bitcoin I cash out for fiat etc., generally bitcoin activity must hold no connection with any institution.

[n0nce]

Since trades are P2P, the bank won't know what you bought with / sold for that bank transfer, and through mixing, the trading partner won't know what you did / will do with the coins.

My only concern is if / when the bank asks me to justify what I bought / sold in a specific transaction. They already do it for large amounts, it's called bank secrecy act. I'm not going to sell over 10k in one transaction, but don't banks question the user a little bit arbitrarily? Who tells me they won't do it if I sell regularly small amounts, or that they won't lower the limit?

I don't know when / why they ask; as far as I know it's for large amounts relative to what you're usually transacting. So if you're ordering expensive stuff every month and add a similarly expensive Bitcoin buy, it won't probably 'trigger' anything.

I'm not sure whether you're allowed to just deny replying and what happens if you do; if they suspect money laundering, they don't question you to report you, but to safeguard themselves, so you be the judge about what you think makes sense to tell them..

Besides the fact that you still need to have a bank account and therefore share your KYC information with 1 bank, it's an almost perfectly private on- & off-ramp.

Just a note about KYC: I don't mind much to have KYC submitted to my national bank, as long as my Bitcoin identity is hidden. What I want is privacy regarding whom I send bitcoin, how much bitcoin I have, how much money I cash out for bitcoin, how much bitcoin I cash out for fiat etc., generally bitcoin activity must hold no connection with any institution.

Yes, exactly; I wanted to emphasize though, that opening bank and exchange accounts left and right, means you'll run a higher risk of getting your KYC data leaked and getting all sorts of problems (impersonation, deanonymization, ...) outside of Bitcoin, too.

With Bisq, you don't need to open one more KYC account of any kind, if you already have a SEPA bank account.

[DireWolfM14]

My only concern is if / when the bank asks me to justify what I bought / sold in a specific transaction. They already do it for large amounts, it's called bank secrecy act. I'm not going to sell over 10k in one transaction, but don't banks question the user a little bit arbitrarily? Who tells me they won't do it if I sell regularly small amounts, or that they won't lower the limit?

The only time my bank has called to ask me about a transaction is when I'm buying bitcoin with Zelle, but the funny thing it is when they did call it was because of a relatively small amount compared to other transactions.  I just tell them it's for "general transaction" and don't give them any more details about why I'm sending Joe Schmoe money.

Just a note about KYC: I don't mind much to have KYC submitted to my national bank, as long as my Bitcoin identity is hidden. What I want is privacy regarding whom I send bitcoin, how much bitcoin I have, how much money I cash out for bitcoin, how much bitcoin I cash out for fiat etc., generally bitcoin activity must hold no connection with any institution.

Banks aren't going to give you an account without KYC, and I don't mind either.  If I'm selling bitcoin I will pay capitol gains tax on my proceeds, and likewise claim a loss if I have to sell for less than my purchase price.  So linking my KYC to deposits into my bank account doesn't bother me.

[BlackHatCoiner]

With Bisq, you don't need to open one more KYC account of any kind, if you already have a SEPA bank account.

Yes. KYC in 2022 is inevitable, and it isn't the direct problem either. The thing I like about Bisq is this dedicated to bitcoin part of my life that it keeps private. If I had to sign up to every CEX here and there, I'd have revealed to both the bank and the CEX how much money I have in bitcoin.

I just tell them it's for "general transaction" and don't give them any more details about why I'm sending Joe Schmoe money.

But, that's probably what they do until you make a transaction with someone who launders some serious amounts of money, part of which you don't know when you exchange at Bisq (and it shouldn't concern you either, but it does concern the bank).

[RickDeckard]

That's correct. In Europe I use bank transfers, because they work in the whole SEPA region and I reduce the risk of trading partners spying on me by mixing before selling or after buying Bitcoins on Bisq.

Banks aren't going to give you an account without KYC, and I don't mind either.  If I'm selling bitcoin I will pay capitol gains tax on my proceeds, and likewise claim a loss if I have to sell for less than my purchase price.  So linking my KYC to deposits into my bank account doesn't bother me.

Granted, I didn't feel comfortable knowing what my full name and IBAN would be given to the seller that may be gathering information regarding my purchases, but I guess that is something that I have to life with. I do prefer that scenario when compared to one where I have to trust a CEX to fully guard my information and not to sell my data to whoever pays more.

One of the important things you have to keep in mind about Bisq is that the approved electronic payment methods are largely selected to enhance the safety of the seller.  I reckon privacy is also a prioritized consideration, but I believe safety is higher priority.  As you mentioned there will always be a trace of evidence that could link you to a transaction, even if that trace is purely circumstantial in nature.

I think that this sums up the importance of Bisq and where it shines - a safer option to buy BTC in a world where almost all the big players in the market will try their best to profit from you and your BTC purchases. Between Bisq and Robosats[1] I can safely say that I won't use CEX any time soon ...
[1]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5405549.0

[o_e_l_e_o]

Granted, I didn't feel comfortable knowing what my full name and IBAN would be given to the seller that may be gathering information regarding my purchases, but I guess that is something that I have to life with. I do prefer that scenario when compared to one where I have to trust a CEX to fully guard my information and not to sell my data to whoever pays more.

Far less that a random person can do with your name and bank account number than a centralized exchange sharing data with blockchain analysis companies, governments, and bunch of other third parties can do with your full KYC data and scans of your important documents. And if even knowing your bank account number is too much for you, then there are other methods you can use which only reveal your name or indeed nothing at all.

But, that's probably what they do until you make a transaction with someone who launders some serious amounts of money, part of which you don't know when you exchange at Bisq (and it shouldn't concern you either, but it does concern the bank).

When selling bitcoin, I tend to prefer cash trades with people I don't know for this reason, and stick to trades via bank accounts only with people I've traded with many times before and built up trust with. Bonus being that once you've traded with someone enough I don't even go through an exchange anymore for a handful of contacts - I can just send them a message privately and we can arrange a peer to peer trade in 60 seconds.

I've never been challenged when depositing cash at a bank, but the story I would use is that I simply sold a few of my possessions for cash, which is completely true.

[BlackHatCoiner]

And if even knowing your bank account number is too much for you, then there are other methods you can use which only reveal your name or indeed nothing at all.

What's bad with knowing an IBAN number, if you know the full name? I've sold some coins and used Revolut. I think the sender just knows your full name that way.

When selling bitcoin, I tend to prefer cash trades with people I don't know for this reason, and stick to trades via bank accounts only with people I've traded with many times before and built up trust with.

The main problem with cash trades is liquidity. None in my country who uses Bisq accepts F2F. Also, even if you've built some trust with traders, there's still concern of money laundering from your bank, especially if there's no corresponded tax framework.

[o_e_l_e_o]

What's bad with knowing an IBAN number, if you know the full name?

Nothing major, otherwise any time anyone made a bank transfer you would be at risk, since you reveal your name and account number. I'm just saying - if you don't want to reveal your account number, there are other methods you can choose.

None in my country who uses Bisq accepts F2F.

Then you can be the first! Create an offer and see if anyone takes you up on it.

Also, even if you've built some trust with traders, there's still concern of money laundering from your bank, especially if there's no corresponded tax framework.

Well, the easiest way to avoid that is to avoid the bank altogether. If you can't spend bitcoin directly, then sell it for cash and spend the cash directly. Better for your privacy too.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Then you can be the first! Create an offer and see if anyone takes you up on it.

I'm going to take advantage of it, if I do it. How much does 1 worth? $16,500? Well, how about $25,000? Less liquidity, less competition. If you don't want, go to the bank. 

Well, the easiest way to avoid that is to avoid the bank altogether. If you can't spend bitcoin directly, then sell it for cash and spend the cash directly. Better for your privacy too.

What concerns me is that someday there won't be physical cash. You'll have to find another solution, if there will be one (to avoid a bank).

[o_e_l_e_o]

I'm going to take advantage of it, if I do it. How much does 1 worth? $16,500? Well, how about $25,000? Less liquidity, less competition.

Great, do it! And if someone doesn't like your offer, they are free to create their own offer which under cuts you. And thus begins the start of an ecosystem of cash trading in your local area.

I've always disliked the argument "There is no liquidity in my area/currency/chosen payment method/etc." when it comes to talking about platforms like Bisq. You don't have to wait for someone else to create the liquidity for you. Such is the beauty of a true DEX - you can create the liquidity yourself, easily, and at no cost. The largest peer to peer trading ecosystems started with a single person posting a single offer.

What concerns me is that someday there won't be physical cash.

Then we better get a lot more places to start accepting bitcoin directly before that happens.

[n0nce]

Well, the easiest way to avoid that is to avoid the bank altogether. If you can't spend bitcoin directly, then sell it for cash and spend the cash directly. Better for your privacy too.

What concerns me is that someday there won't be physical cash. You'll have to find another solution, if there will be one (to avoid a bank).

What about....


Historically, societies have been very creative in finding ways to transfer value, physically.
What about 'grams of gold' <> BTC as a trade pair for Bisq?

[BlackHatCoiner]

Great, do it!

Ugh, I did sacrifice a little privacy for this post again, didn't I? 

I've always disliked the argument "There is no liquidity in my area/currency/chosen payment method/etc." when it comes to talking about platforms like Bisq.

Sure, but I'd rather go with trusted buyers only, and that worsens the occasion. (AFAIK, trading with newbie buyers does come with a risk, even if there's a mediator involved)

What about....

Fuck it. Let's just pull a request, and setup an entire decentralized marketplace right now. 

[dkbit98]

What concerns me is that someday there won't be physical cash. You'll have to find another solution, if there will be one (to avoid a bank).

You better start the process yourself if you want to preserve cash trading with Bitcoin.
There would be no chance any government would be able to remove cash if enough people didn't accept this change, and want to continue using cash payments.
More people should pay stuff with cash in every day life, so there would be more trading options for Bitcoin, and except Bisq you could try other P2P trading websites from kycnot.me website.

Then we better get a lot more places to start accepting bitcoin directly before that happens.

All we can do is ask more people if they want to accept payment in Bitcoin.
I am doing that all the time, but in best cases I am getting answers they lost all money in crypto investing in some shitcoins crap.
In worst cases they think it's all a scam or they never heard anything about Bitcoin.

Historically, societies have been very creative in finding ways to transfer value, physically.
What about 'grams of gold' <> BTC as a trade pair for Bisq?

So you actually sent a merge request for this (CIG) List Cigarettes? 
Instead of Gold I would rather think about grams of Silver, it is cheaper, easier to find/divide and it has longer history as being used for payments.