Censorship resistance is underrated, move to bitcoin and #DeletePaypal

[BlackHatCoiner]

Recently, Paypal announced that they will be charging $2,500 if you're caught to spread "false, inaccurate or misleading information" as they say[1]. It'd be planned to be effective by November 3rd, but they must have realized it does some harm to vaguely and subjectively suspend accounts and confiscate people's money, so they've reversed it according to Dailywire[2]. However, some users do have had their accounts canceled. Specifically, accounts linked to Toby Young[3].

This[4] is the updated list of prohibited activities, taken from web archive. They have removed it from paypal.com, as I said because they must have withdrawn it. This isn't much different from the this year's GoFundMe case, wherein millions of dollars from truckers were seized due to protesting. It might be a common phenomenon from now on, especially with the existence of such ambiguous and subjectively-taken legislation[5]. Let me highlight some:

Act in a manner that is defamatory, trade libelous, threatening or harassing

Provide false, inaccurate or misleading information

Send or receive what we reasonably believe to be potentially fraudulent funds

Control an account that is linked to another account that has engaged in any of these restricted activities

Leaving savings to your Paypal account means you're fully agreed with having them confiscated if you're caught to do something that might be considered shady or inappropriate, not according to you, but according to Paypal.

Friendly suggestion: Don't. Move to bitcoin. I can't assure you that it will rise or stabilize in value over the long term, but I can tell you this: It doesn't have Terms & Conditions. You're censorship protected.

[1] https://www.dailywire.com/news/new-paypal-policy-lets-company-pull-2500-from-users-accounts-if-they-promote-misinformation
[2] https://www.dailywire.com/news/paypal-reverses-plan-to-fine-users-2500-for-misinformation-after-daily-wire-report
[3] https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/paypal-suspends-toby-youngs-free-speech-union-accounts-over-covid-misinformation-335762/
[4] https://web.archive.org/web/20220927223312/https://www.paypalobjects.com/marketing/ua/pdf/US/en/acceptableuse-full-110322.pdf
[5] https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_US#restricted-activities

[nutildah]

Well, that's not exactly what it said. It said this:

You are independently responsible for complying with all applicable laws in all of your
actions related to your use of PayPal's services, regardless of the purpose of the use. In
addition, you must adhere to the terms of this Acceptable Use Policy. Violation of this
Acceptable Use Policy constitutes a violation of the PayPal User Agreement and may
subject you to damages, including liquidated damages of $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per
violation, which may be debited directly from your PayPal account(s) as outlined in the
User Agreement

You're somewhat ironically spreading misinformation about their (now no longer existent) policy though, which is kind of funny.

Don't care about this Toby Young guy, don't care about people who violate a company's policies, get removed as a customer, and then cry about their non-existent right to use said company's services. From one of the articles you linked:



Reminds me of the whole "right to social media" movement. There's no such right. There's also no right to Cloudflare, no right to Uber, no right to Door Dash, and no right to Bitcointalk.

[Upgrade00]

You're somewhat ironically spreading misinformation about their (now no longer existent) policy though, which is kind of funny.

You call it misinformation cause the ToS included 'may' and not a more certain been like 'would'? That seems like a reach imo.

"May" is many atimes used in describing the terms of service that users have to comply to, and agreeing to it means the user understands that the company or firm reserves the right to act on those terms outlisted.

Is it possible that if that term is still up users who are perceived to have violated it would have the set amount deducted from their balance. Yes.
If they do so, can they (PayPal) be sued or challenged for it? No, you agreed to the term.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Well, that's not exactly what it said. It said this

"May subject you to damages", "May be debited directly from your Paypal account(s)". This implies that it's absolutely possible. And if something's possible, it will happen. Where did I spread misinformation exactly?

You're somewhat ironically spreading misinformation about their (now no longer existent) policy though, which is kind of funny.

Ok, first of all, it's the $2,500 fine that is no longer existent policy; not the rest. Second, the point of this thread isn't the $2,500 fine.

Reminds me of the whole "right to social media" movement. There's no such right.

Exactly. You don't have a right in Paypal. So opt out.

[mk4]

Censorship resistance is unfortunately one of those things that the huge majority of people can only appreciate once they themselves have already been censored in the past. Hence why we always get opinions from privileged people saying things like "PayPal/CashApp/ApplePay is fine, Bitcoin is unnecessary".

[bitmover]

Recently, Paypal announced that they will be charging $2,500 if you're caught to spread "false, inaccurate or misleading information" as they say[1].

Well, not only PayPal is a problem. I am hinking about how much censorship resistance will PoS coins such Ethereum will have now.

Owner of the Addresses with huge amount of coins, the validators, are well known. Authorities may just go to those people and make requests.

This cannot  be done in a protocol such as bitcoin pow. Miners are not well know, hash rate is more decentralized  (miners are not polls)

[o_e_l_e_o]

involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPal’s sole discretion,
...(a) are harmful, obscene, harassing, or objectionable
...(g) are fraudulent, promote misinformation, or are unlawful,
...(i) are otherwise unfit for publication.

So, anything that some unnamed and unknown person at PayPal deems is harmful, misinformation, or just generally unfit for publication, and you are fined and censored. How many people in the traditional banking world still think that promoting bitcoin is spreading misinformation? And you can't say anything that might hurt someone's feelings? Lol. Glad I've never had a PayPal account. What a scam.

Note, of course, that PayPal won't be implementing these kinds of draconian rules for fun. (I know they have reversed course for now due to the backlash, but these rules will absolutely return either when no one is paying attention, or in small increments over time so people don't notice.) It is governments and regulators which are forcing PayPal to implement these kinds of rules. And if they are forcing fiat institutions to do it, you can rest assured they will soon be forcing crypto institutions to do it too.

Bitcoin is censorship resistant, but centralized exchanges absolutely aren't. Bitcoin is the solution to this if and only if you hold your own bitcoin in your wallets.

[cabron]

The hypocrisy to these payment system is just too much but they can stomach all these when they see you not on their side. When the Missile mail was launched which allows people to send money to Ukrainian army to write personal message to the bombs to shoot to Russians, the funding page wasn't taken down. They were happy to published on news pages.

Paypal, Gofundme and all others supports to fund wars but funding the truckers protest to express their dismay. The funds were seized.

According the Traders university https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je748RNEnWc

If your paypal account happens to be empty while you are caught spreading misinformation, paypal has the right to get the funds from your linked bank account.  Damn!

[Flexystar]

What about the small businesses like micro earning sites, survey workers, or freelance workers then? Are they going to boycott them as well if they found that there website is publishing some bad advertisements or may be there was a survey which was connected with the company which PayPal does not like? That's funny because it is too restrictive and is not worth it because PayPal will surely loose big user data base after this. PayPal is already on the negative list of users because there had been lot of chargebacks for the subscriptions of simple play store apps and iOS apps. All you need is one complaint and they will just chargeback without further confirmation. It's really sad to see more stringent rules being enacted by them.

[DaveF]

Reminds me of the whole "right to social media" movement. There's no such right. There's also no right to Cloudflare, no right to Uber, no right to Door Dash, and no right to Bitcointalk.

Exactly, you are in their house you have to play by their rules. Credit cards and their processors have always been able to and frequently did block things they wanted to or were forced to block. Before there was 'the internet' when we had to dial into BBSs and use compuserve and such they would kick you in a second if you started something the operators did not like. Nobody is forcing you to do anything or even use their services, but because they are cheap & easy & simple people do.

Just as soon as people notice they have no rights of service the better they will be. And that is the point of BTC there is no way for anyone to stop you from using it.

-Dave

[NotATether]

Currently the only alternative to Paypal is directly using a credit or debit card. Bitcoin isn't exactly at the stage required to subvert Paypal, especially when you still need to buy gift cards or debit cards for Bitcoin to purchase most fiat stuff.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Nobody is forcing you to do anything or even use their services, but because they are cheap & easy & simple people do.

And perhaps because they don't know there's an alternative payment network that cuts off intermediaries, treats everyone objectively, and makes everyone responsible for their own money? Nobody is forcing you to have a bank account, but if you don't know there are other options to send money via the Internet, you'll be left over with 2 options. Option A; to not send money via the Internet, but with physical cash. Option B; to use the bank, in spite of the downsides.

There's no justification to the staying of the current feudalistic monetary system other than inadequate education.

[o_e_l_e_o]

If your paypal account happens to be empty while you are caught spreading misinformation, paypal has the right to get the funds from your linked bank account.  Damn!

This is wild. I took a good look through their User Agreement here: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full. I've pulled out all the relevant parts below:

You acknowledge and agree that $2,500.00 U.S. dollars per violation of the Acceptable Use Policy is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPal’s actual damages.

PayPal may deduct such damages directly from any existing balance in any PayPal account you control.

If the balance in your Balance Account or business account doesn’t cover the payment amount due plus the fees, we may use any of the payment methods linked to your PayPal account to cover the amount due. If the payment methods linked to your PayPal account don’t cover the amount due, this will result in a negative balance. A negative balance represents an amount that you owe to us, and, in this situation, you must immediately add funds to your balance to resolve it. If you don’t, PayPal may engage in collection efforts to recover the amount due from you.

So if PayPal decide you've said something they don't like, they'll charge $2,500 from your PayPal account. If they can't do that, they'll pull $2,500 from any linked banked account or credit card. If they can't do that, they'll send debt collectors after you.

What about this post? This post is harmful to PayPal. Would they charge me $2,500 for it if I had a PayPal account? Who knows. It's within their terms to do so if they wanted, and it's at their sole discretion.

[n0ne]

Nobody is forcing you to do anything or even use their services, but because they are cheap & easy & simple people do.

And perhaps because they don't know there's an alternative payment network that cuts off intermediaries, treats everyone objectively, and makes everyone responsible for their own money? Nobody is forcing you to have a bank account, but if you don't know there are other options to send money via the Internet, you'll be left over with 2 options. Option A; to not send money via the Internet, but with physical cash. Option B; to use the bank, in spite of the downsides.

There's no justification to the staying of the current feudalistic monetary system other than inadequate education.

The existence of an alternate needs to be spread around. This can shift existing users of PayPal towards bitcoin. In PayPal users have their bank accounts connected to PayPal. The fund received in any currency gets withdrawn to the respective bank account linked. Same as this bitcoin can be used without much complications. For now the market volatility, trust and the awareness keeps bitcoin away from PayPal users who are much oriented on business purposes. These corporate networks make use of it and overruling its userbase.

[cryptosize]

"If you're not woke/SJW-friendly, you will get a fine from the thought police."

Okay PayPal!

ps: Shame this service was founded by Elon Musk... see how fast things can change in just 2 decades?

[BlackHatCoiner]

This is wild.

Yes. It's true. A private company suddenly decides to take the law in hands, and act as a social penalty mechanism. This can turn into so much worse shit that I don't want to think about. There's no person I know who doesn't have a paypal account. I do have too, but with no linked credit card. It can't overcharge if I use debit.

It's a glimpse from the future, CBDC. 

ps: Shame this service was founded by Elon Musk... see how fast things can change in just 2 decades?

It'd be shame if he was worthy of respect. He's lost me since Dogecoin.

[dothebeats]

Too bad I still need to use Paypal because this is how I get paid for some of my offshore clients. Tried to pitch in an idea that I'm open in receiving my pay in bitcoin or any other altcoins out there but they don't seem too comfortable to handle such transactions. Imagine I just posted something against Paypal out of frustration but not out of spite, and then a $2500 deduction on my account would be posted? This is nuts. This is what happens when an organization is given a lot of power on their hands, they act like they are the law and that everyone is on their payroll.

Wise is a decent alternative, but I'm not sure if it's any better than what Paypal is right now.

[franky1]

This is wild.

Yes. It's true. A private company suddenly decides to take the law in hands,

but come on !!! you must know by now
fiat is not users product but the property of government. they make it they own it they set the rules for who gets to use it for whatever reason

paypal services/accounts/utility like all businesses belongs to paypal. they set the rules because its their property

if someone walked into your house(property) and said they were your guest, and they suddenly started urinating on your sofa and then raping your spouse.. (they may have your warped mindset that you if you were a guest would think that the property owner should be hospitable to its guests and let them have the right to do as they please.)
but the property owner is more likely to get a baseball bat and swing it at your head if you dont leave their property

its not 'suddenly taking the law into their own hands'. its their property  right thats ben around for hundreds of years to set terms and conditions of utility of their guests using their property

if you want to destroy property rights that you are actually in the end harming your own rights about your own property.. so stop crying about services rights to protect what is theirs.

businesses can set any policy they like.. its their property
if you dont like their terms.. dont use them. its simple

you need to start getting used to reading walls of texts to read the terms and conditions. and be prepared to realise that many businesses will have terms that wont meet your expectations. and s you then need to learn to stop using services

no business is expected to by default to let its customers do absolutely anything they like. so stop being an idiot crying that businesses do not let you do your criminal activity without monitoring you

if you want to do criminal activity without monitoring.. then go get your buddy group together and go make a services that has no terms of use
stop crying about how many businesses are not receptive to criminals

oh and here is the funny.. i actually prefer to use alipay (alixpress/alibaba) which is chinese far more then paypal. i have not used paypal in possibly 12 years

but the point is instead of crying about how businesses are harming your immoral/unethical methods of profit.. go make a service that fits your need

[uneng]

For me Paypal has always been a very treacherous company which charge abusive fees while not being user friendly, especially for micro earners who want to work online on multiple platforms.

These news come only to corroborate with my initial thoughts. I'm just thankful we have cryptocurrency and more exactly bitcoin nowadays, so Paypal has become obsolete since then, at least in my case.

And I believe it is just a matter of time until they close the doors or are bought by a rising company of the same niche.

[Poker Player]

I am glad they have removed that clause because of the negative response from people and the controversy generated. Many people believe that censorship is acceptable nowadays, but that a private company could act in that way has a component of arbitrariness that is closer to feudalism than to an advanced society.

Who decides what is correct information? If we talk about things like that the earth is round we will enter into a consensus, and even so, there are those who deny it and say that it is flat, but when we enter into topics that have an ideological component we enter into dangerous terrain.

For example. When CBDCs are soon to be implemented, expressing the opinion that Bitcoin is more reliable and more secure than them could be considered misinformation. And so we could find a lot of examples.

I used paypal a bit in the past and stopped using it by deleting the account, because of some charges they wanted to put if I remember correctly. Now I have them sending me emails saying they will give me some free pennies if I come back. Let them sit tight.