Censorship resistance is underrated, move to bitcoin and #DeletePaypal

[mk4]

Too bad I still need to use Paypal because this is how I get paid for some of my offshore clients. Tried to pitch in an idea that I'm open in receiving my pay in bitcoin or any other altcoins out there but they don't seem too comfortable to handle such transactions. Imagine I just posted something against Paypal out of frustration but not out of spite, and then a $2500 deduction on my account would be posted? This is nuts. This is what happens when an organization is given a lot of power on their hands, they act like they are the law and that everyone is on their payroll.

Wise is a decent alternative, but I'm not sure if it's any better than what Paypal is right now.

Just make sure to always immediately withdraw your PayPal funds to your bank account every few days. Even before this new(but seemingly revoked) rule, PayPal locking up funds and taking people's money isn't anything new — and I'm saying this as someone who lost approximately $2000 to PayPal as well; and I didn't even scam anyone.

[avikz]

I think PayPal isn't doing it at their own will. Because such kind of confistication activities can seriously harm the reputation of PayPal as a business. It surely can bring in negative press releases against them which can hurt them as a business.

I believe they are being pressurized by some regulatory bodies where they are headquartered. Because as a privately held company, they can't decide such things and cancel your account at their will. This is my personal take on it.

[pooya87]

This is another very good example of how many organizations have been scared shitless about bitcoin ever since it was created. Bitcoin simply cuts off their hand that was in other people's pockets. No wonder they have been spreading so much FUD and spending so much money trying to prevent bitcoin adoption from growing and overtaking their corrupt cartels.

[davis196]

Paypal was going down the shithole years ago. Even the fact that they "kinda" adopted Bitcoin won't change their true nature.
Unfortunately most of the Paypal customers don't care about there Terms of Service, because:
1.Paypal is simply too user-friendly and convenient, if you are a buyer.
2.The online sellers use Paypal only because millions of buyers use it as well.
This company is in the "too big to fail" category despite their transaction fees going up and their service getting worse every year.
The Paypal alternatives like Skrill, Zelle, Cashapp and the rest of the payment apps will turn into Paypal clones sooner or later.
When you use such payment service and you fund your account, your money becomes their money and you have to abide by the their rules.
Otherwise they will simply take away the money that you gave them.

[Coyster]

I'm just thankful we have cryptocurrency and more exactly bitcoin nowadays, so Paypal has become obsolete since then, at least in my case.

I'm afraid Paypal isn't becoming obsolete, like you say, maybe for you because you prolly no longer use it, but mind you that Paypal has over 400 million users and still counting, thus it is pretty far from being obsolete. Bitcoin is perfect as a way to send and receive funds without censorship, that's if the user makes use of non-custodial wallets, but Bitcoin imo is still a rather young network and cannot make Paypal obsolete just yet. Even if people ditch Paypal for one obscene reason or the other, only a few of them will join the Bitcoin network as an alternative, they'd rather choose other 'popular' options to send and receive funds.

Having said that, Bitcoin's adoption will continually grow and users who prefer censorship resistant options will join the Bitcoin network, but i am afraid that users who worry about them being censored are fewer than those that do not.

[Kakmakr]

I do like centralization and the misuse of that power, but if the correct procedures were followed and the funds "locked" until the criminal actions were proven, then I will welcome actions to prevent scams and financial crimes. I know this is open for exploitation and misuse, but large companies like PayPal has an obligation to protect their users from financial crimes.

The thing about Bitcoin is this.... once you press the enter key to transfer the funds, it is gone... you cannot reverse that transaction...and this is advantageous for companies and individuals, where people buy something and then reverse the transaction... but on the other hand... if the receiver is a scammer and you want to reverse the transaction.... then that is impossible. 

[Coyster]

I know this is open for exploitation and misuse, but large companies like PayPal has an obligation to protect their users from financial crimes.

I think the problem in this thread isn't about Paypal protecting itself or its users from financial crimes, i mean, every user on this forum will be happy if proven criminals have their funds confiscated and if they are censored by Paypal, but most of the problem here is some of the reasons as to why a Paypal user can get censored and their funds confiscated, some of which are really subjective reasons, like misinformation, unfit for publication, or harmful, etc, some of these things are subjective and for example what some of their users might consider good information, might be misinformation in Paypal's views, and they could get punished for it, even through their linked bank accounts. (Well that's before they changed their minds on this unnecessary terms of service anyway).

The thing about Bitcoin is this.... once you press the enter key to transfer the funds, it is gone... you cannot reverse that transaction...and this is advantageous for companies and individuals, where people buy something and then reverse the transaction... but on the other hand... if the receiver is a scammer and you want to reverse the transaction.... then that is impossible.  

That is the responsibility people owe to their funds when they are users in the Bitcoin network.

[Apocollapse]

Thanks for this, Paypal seems to be more stricter and don't care anything with freedom to speak.

For freelancers who need to receipt worldwide online payment, I think it's better to choose the other alternative e.g. World Pay, Sage Pay, Stripe etc since most people doesn't comfortable to pay via Bitcoin. Even though sooner or later those online payment might tightening their rules, but there's not many choice against this matter.

[o_e_l_e_o]

businesses can set any policy they like.. its their property

But in this case, it isn't their property. PayPal are absolutely within their rights to shut down your account if you said something they don't like. That's how centralized businesses work. Fine. What they aren't within their rights to do is pull $2,500 from a completely separate bank account or send debt collectors after you because you said something they don't like. That is absolutely not their property.

I am glad they have removed that clause because of the negative response from people and the controversy generated.

This policy was no mistake or accident. This is the future direction PayPal are heading in. They may have put it on hold for now, but you can guarantee they will reintroduce it again at some point, once the outrage has passed.

I know this is open for exploitation and misuse, but large companies like PayPal has an obligation to protect their users from financial crimes.

Which they've already been doing (and over-zealously, it seems, given how many innocent users have lost funds on PayPal). This new policy isn't about that - it's about censorship and control.


I'm actually feeling positive about this new policy from PayPal. It doesn't affect me in the slightest since I have never had a PayPal account, and the more people whom fiat institutes start arbitrarily censoring, fining, and preventing access to their own money, then the more people who will start looking for a trustless, censorship resistant alternative.

Bitcoin fixes this.

[franky1]

businesses can set any policy they like.. its their property

But in this case, it isn't their property. PayPal are absolutely within their rights to shut down your account if you said something they don't like. That's how centralized businesses work. Fine. What they aren't within their rights to do is pull $2,500 from a completely separate bank account or send debt collectors after you because you said something they don't like. That is absolutely not their property.

heres the think though.. they can

by linking your bank account you are giving them permission to pull funds from your account.

you have to check their terms for what they deem as reasons they will pull funds from your account

EG some companies say they want to charge you a monthly fee or a retainer amount or a upfront reserve. you ned to read the terms for what they say they will do if you use their service

lets give you some other real life examples
heck even just parking your car on a rectangle space of tarmac for longer than the land owner allows, gets your vehicle towed away and debt collectors chasing you. and thats without even having to sign up to any membership. thats just being on someones property means you agree to their terms of use
much like many websites 'by continuing to visit this site you agree with its cookie policy and the sites terms and conditions'
.you see facebook, microsoft outlook, and paypal update there terms, they dont even have to get you to 'accept' them no more, they simply state by continuing to use their service you are agreeing to the updated terms. meaning they dont even have to get you to read and accept you have read the updated terms.

this is why whenever using any service, read the terms and if you dont like it, dont use the service.

heck you even see utility companies. like cell phone deals that set you up with a contract. which meant to be a fixed rate zero change policy for the contract period, now can change their rates/policies mid contract where they dont even have to get you to sign up again. they can just start taking more money out of your account or any amount they say the bill is owed.

[spectre71]

It's going to be real interesting to watch PP stock price this week.

Jack Dorsey and Block are probably the closest ones to strike PP. He still leans in to the left/woke crowd tho.

Jack Mallers, maybe if he can get some big HP behind him. He could be a disruptor in the field.

Poor Ebay, they pretty much run on PP.

[cryptosize]

Jack Dorsey and Block are probably the closest ones to strike PP. He still leans in to the left/woke crowd tho.

That's why I don't trust him. He allowed Twitter to become a woke hivemind.

His transformation from 2010 to 2020 is amazing (in a bad way).

Why does everyone in Commiefornia catch the woke virus?

And there's no "vaccine" apparently...

[o_e_l_e_o]

-snip-

I'm not arguing that what they are proposing is illegal, just that it's complete horseshit. If their terms say they can put you in debt if you say something they don't like, and you continue to use their service, then sure, you can't act surprised when that's what happens. Doesn't mean it is any less horseshit that a private company are now policing what you say based on their own arbitrary decisions with zero oversight and will take your money away if you step out of line.

This is the future of fiat and CBDCs. It is terrifying. The American Social Credit System is in the works. Mass surveillance becomes a whole lot more problematic when private companies or governments can just take away your money if you commit thoughtcrime. There will never be a greater need for bitcoin.

[tadamichi]

paypal services/accounts/utility like all businesses belongs to paypal. they set the rules because its their property

There is still something called principles and morals that goes beyond what some army of state servants are spamming into a book, for a lot of people. The judicial system became to justice, what fiat became to money. Nothing of what youre saying turns wrong into right, and no amount of missing the point examples will change that.

if someone walked into your house(property) and said they were your guest, and they suddenly started urinating on your sofa and then raping your spouse.. (they may have your warped mindset that you if you were a guest would think that the property owner should be hospitable to its guests and let them have the right to do as they please.)
but the property owner is more likely to get a baseball bat and swing it at your head if you dont leave their property

Comparing rape, vandalism and trespassing with your payment provider opening up the possibility to surveil/sanction/cancel their whole userbase at their own discretion, based on as vague as possible walls of user agreements that can change every 2 seconds and for things that are possibly completely unrelated to the service. Completely missing the point.

businesses can set any policy they like..

They cant. Many policies are void if they violate certain rules, like unreasonably disadvantaging a contracting party. But this will also vary by jurisdiction or court. Regular people just dont have the time to sue any service theyre using or even reading that bs.

no business is expected to by default to let its customers do absolutely anything they like. so stop being an idiot crying that businesses do not let you do your criminal activity without monitoring you

No one demanded this.

oh and here is the funny.. i actually prefer to use alipay (alixpress/alibaba) which is chinese far more then paypal. i have not used paypal in possibly 12 years

Thanks for the interesting information.

but the point is instead of crying about how businesses are harming your immoral/unethical methods of profit.. go make a service that fits your need

We should, but its hard to create services that protect common sense rights in a growingly surveillance-mandating, anti-freedom and pro-censorship culture and jurisdiction. There isnt a need for decentralization for no reason.

[NotATether]

Why does everyone in Commiefornia catch the woke virus?

And there's no "vaccine" apparently...

Not entirely true. The vaccine is manufactured exclusively in Texas. 

[cryptosize]

Why does everyone in Commiefornia catch the woke virus?

And there's no "vaccine" apparently...

Not entirely true. The vaccine is manufactured exclusively in Texas. 

What do you mean?

[BlackHatCoiner]

but large companies like PayPal has an obligation to protect their users from financial crimes.

No, it hasn't. Private companies don't act in a paternalistic manner to protect their users from misinformation with minimum to zero protection demand, last time I checked. What users do with their life, is their business. Not PayPal's. Paypal's business is to work as an online payment system, and serve transactions between vendors and customers. That's all. It's not a law instrument responsible for the society's welfare, and neither users' mom and dad.

[spectre71]

This minute PP is down 6.3% and falling as expected.

A week or so ago Ray Dalio who I respect very much came out with PP as a good growth opportunity.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/12-best-growth-stocks-buy-191841097.html

Hmmm..  Tank the stock out, buy in and when the sheep in mass forget and use PP because of limited options the stock goes up...

Goes against my fiber, but hey. maybe make some money.

[cryptosize]

This minute PP is down 6.3% and falling as expected.

A week or so ago Ray Dalio who I respect very much came out with PP as a good growth opportunity.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/12-best-growth-stocks-buy-191841097.html

Hmmm..  Tank the stock out, buy in and when the sheep in mass forget and use PP because of limited options the stock goes up...

Goes against my fiber, but hey. maybe make some money.

He's a sneaky guy:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-03/ray-dalio-no-longer-thinks-cash-is-trash

Sell your BTC for cheap, he wants moar.

[uneng]

I'm just thankful we have cryptocurrency and more exactly bitcoin nowadays, so Paypal has become obsolete since then, at least in my case.

I'm afraid Paypal isn't becoming obsolete, like you say, maybe for you because you prolly no longer use it, but mind you that Paypal has over 400 million users and still counting, thus it is pretty far from being obsolete. Bitcoin is perfect as a way to send and receive funds without censorship, that's if the user makes use of non-custodial wallets, but Bitcoin imo is still a rather young network and cannot make Paypal obsolete just yet. Even if people ditch Paypal for one obscene reason or the other, only a few of them will join the Bitcoin network as an alternative, they'd rather choose other 'popular' options to send and receive funds.

Having said that, Bitcoin's adoption will continually grow and users who prefer censorship resistant options will join the Bitcoin network, but i am afraid that users who worry about them being censored are fewer than those that do not.

Well, that is something I don't understand. Why do people continue using Paypal services paying absurd fees and being bullied while they could simply adopt crypto which is decentralized and let us have total control over our money and transactions?

That sounds like sadomasochism to me.

And even if customers justify they want to avoid the volatility of crypto market's currencies, they could use stablecoins in this case.