Censorship resistance is underrated, move to bitcoin and #DeletePaypal

[tadamichi]

It just has nothing to do with abuse, misinformation or scammy promoters profiting, none of these actions were taken because of this. There are ∞ counterexamples.

This is what people seems to fall to understand: the companies are not forced to have nice and correct rules.

Ik that. My point being: we don’t need to sit here and intellectually defend continuous wrongdoings for them, just because a corrupt, inefficient, lagging behind and unjust entity didn’t tell them yet, that they can’t live out their authoritarian fetishes on their users without punishment.

What the government legislates doesn’t make things right or wrong, it just decides about it’s legal status. Doing wrongdoings just because they’re legal or mandated doesn’t make them right or justified. It was probably the cause of most human suffering in history, so it should be resisted as best as possible.

Ik that it won’t happen in practice, but i also won’t sit here and defend wrongdoings just because they’re legal. Censorship resistance starts with our tolerance to bs, this is one thing i won’t ever get stoical about.

I'll repeat the quote I shared in that post above:

Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then offer themselves without being asked.

franky1 epitomizes this mindset. "PayPal are free to censor anyone who uses PayPal, they are just protecting their business", he says. Even if you think that is a reasonable position to hold, you really think it will stop there? Given the history of government repression, mass surveillance, censorship through the fiat system, social credit scores, and all manner of controlling measures being forced upon us, you really think this isn't just the next step in ever more censorship and control over your lives? Governments would force fiat institutions to freeze all your accounts if you say something they don't like if they thought they could get away with it, and indeed, have already done exactly that with the Canadian truckers, Russian oligarchs, and others. If PayPal had got away with this (and I am still 100% sure they will re-implement it at some point in the future), then they will soon move on to ever more repressive policies.

Nice quote. Im still unsure whether we’re only a minority that opposes tyranny and a large portion of people would actually enjoy being able to legally tyrannise their peers without consequences. I dont think franky is one of them, but he bases part of his judgment strictly on legal frameworks, which are flawed in itself. It’s enough to navigate life, but wrong on many ends like tolerating this bs.

instead of playing victim that it uses its rights.. instead grow a conscience, some morals. and think of (for once) offering a service that competes against the service you hate. that actually morally and ethically offers something better for everyone

Already on it, thanks. There isn’t much of value in this thread except lies and insults, so i won’t even comment on them.

[1714572818]

1714572818

[1714572818]

1714572818

[Mauser]

I try to avoid PayPal as much as possible, but I am not sure if I could actually delete my PayPal account. My main concern is that PayPal is so closely connected with ebay and the small advertisements sites. My preferred payment methods would be cryptos, cash or a bank transfer. But whenever I get contacted by a potential buyer they also ask for PayPal. It's annoying how dominant they are in the market. And now with all the changes to their services it becomes a huge risk for anybody dealing larger sums of money through them. I would advice everybody to move all his money away from PayPal as soon as it arrives, don't let anything sit there for a few days. I wonder how many reports are enough to freeze your account and give you a hefty fine. Imagine you get a false report and did nothing wrong to still face to pay a big fine. The new system sounds exploitable and not save at all.

[franky1]

when doing the "we wil send you 2 payments of under $1 to verify your bank account" you are agreeing to let them link and access your bank account

the thing is...
people need to be more risk aware. and learn about what they are getting into. rather then having a blind ignorant mindsete of trusting.. they need to do research and be self aware.

bitcoin is about people taking responsibility of their own property/value. where you should not just blindly trust some third party to look after it and not harm you.

we should have not celebrated the "currency" mainstreaming but instead looked at the ramifications of redefining bitcoin as a mainstream currency. as yes it had negative ramifications to peoples beloved "privacy rights"

putting bitcoin into a custodian is also something people need to be aware of.
its the whole point of "not your keys not your coin" its about understanding that businesses can fail you.

dont cry that they can fail you. learn that they can and probably will.. and if you dont like it. use something else or make something else but no matter what you decide to use. dont just have the ignorant mindset of utopian hope that the new thing you found is perfect. and instead learn about its risks and flaws and understand them

[o_e_l_e_o]

And now with all the changes to their services it becomes a huge risk for anybody dealing larger sums of money through them.

My understanding is accepting PayPal is always a risk, since it is trivial for the buyer to initiate a chargeback. It's for this reason that good DEXs such as Bisq don't support PayPal as a payment option.

I would advice everybody to move all his money away from PayPal as soon as it arrives, don't let anything sit there for a few days.

It makes no difference. Have a look at the quotes from their User Agreement I shared in this post. If they want to seize your money or reverse a payment, they will take it from your PayPal balance. If your PayPal balance is empty, they will pull it from any of your linked payment methods, including bank accounts or credit cards. If they still can't take your money, they'll send debt collectors after you. Whether or not the money is in your PayPal account is irrelevant. If you use PayPal at all, they can unilaterally decide to take your money.

[cryptosize]

they'll send debt collectors after you

Good luck with that...

[buwaytress]

I would advice everybody to move all his money away from PayPal as soon as it arrives, don't let anything sit there for a few days.

It makes no difference. Have a look at the quotes from their User Agreement I shared in this post. If they want to seize your money or reverse a payment, they will take it from your PayPal balance. If your PayPal balance is empty, they will pull it from any of your linked payment methods, including bank accounts or credit cards. If they still can't take your money, they'll send debt collectors after you. Whether or not the money is in your PayPal account is irrelevant. If you use PayPal at all, they can unilaterally decide to take your money.

As someone who's personally used them for years before, I can attest to that. They've reversed payments, frozen balances (not for days or weeks, for months) even though I repeatedly KYC and verify whatever they ask for. Not once have I ever been tagged for fraud, all invoices were clearly from freelance work. And yes, they will draw from linked accounts and cards.

Last time I used them to receive was in 2017, mind you. It's probably a lot worse now.

but unfortunately it was a photoshop. 

Ow too bad. (I'm now embarrassed I've fallen for this so easy.)

Oh damn, now you made me fall for that too as I told my kid about it and he was like, "really?" and I said really. See, even we can get influenced too easily now. We should be worried.

[Rikafip]

Word on Twitter is that after initially removing that $2500 fine for spreading false info, PayPal reinstated it. Well, so much about it being just a mistake as their PR team tried to present it lol. So glad I got rid of my PayPal  account few years ago so I don't have to deal with their bullshit anymore.

edit: found an article about it https://viewfromthewing.com/paypals-objectionable-terms-are-back-2500-fines-for-content-they-dont-like/

[o_e_l_e_o]

Word on the Twitter is that after initially removing that $2500 fine for spreading false info PayPal reinstated it. Well, so much about it being just a mistake as their PR team tried to present it lol.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise:

This policy was no mistake or accident. This is the future direction PayPal are heading in. They may have put it on hold for now, but you can guarantee they will reintroduce it again at some point, once the outrage has passed.

And even if for some reason this ridiculous draconian nonsense doesn't bother, consider for a second they outright lied to all their customers saying "Oops, what a silly mistake!" and then slipped it back in when they thought you wouldn't notice.

If you haven't deleted your PayPal account yet, now would be a good time.

[DaveF]

Word on Twitter is that after initially removing that $2500 fine for spreading false info, PayPal reinstated it. Well, so much about it being just a mistake as their PR team tried to present it lol. So glad I got rid of my PayPal  account few years ago so I don't have to deal with their bullshit anymore.

edit: found an article about it https://viewfromthewing.com/paypals-objectionable-terms-are-back-2500-fines-for-content-they-dont-like/

Quoting from the article you linked:

Financial institutions aren’t actually seeking to fine their customers for ideas that the company objects to. They’re acting to protect their reputation, which is to say they’re acting to appease regulators who hold the key to an institution’s profitability and ability to conduct business.

I bolded the text I really think matters. They don't give a crap about anything but making money. That is the objective of a services business, they don't make widgets or anything else so there is no way to generate more money by making more widgets. They move and hold money.

The second there is work involved that regulators want, you need to pay people to do it. So make sure there as little as possible for regulators to want your people to do.
Is it fair to all users? Nope
Will they loose more business then they gain because of it? Possibly.
Did the accountants & lawyers and everyone else say that doing it this way was the way to make more profit? Almost definitely.

-Dave

[o_e_l_e_o]

I bolded the text I really think matters.

Does it really matter, though? Whether PayPal are appointing themselves judge, jury, and executioner here to advanced their own agenda, or whether they are just enforcing rules set by the government, does it make any different to the end user? Does it matter who is censoring your when you are being censored either way? The end result here is identical - some faceless entity is dictating what you are allowed to say, and if you step out of line, they take away your money.

Did the accountants & lawyers and everyone else say that doing it this way was the way to make more profit? Almost definitely.

Reminds me stories of businesses such as car manufacturers which, upon discovering a possibly fatal flaw in some model they have released, calculate the cost of the recall and weigh that against how many people are likely to die because of this flaw and the cost of the resulting lawsuits. If the recall will be more expensive, then they shrug their shoulders and let people die.