[2022-11-01] Grocery retailer Pick n Pay start accepting cryptocurrency payments

[Kakmakr]

https://www.reuters.com/technology/grocery-retailer-pick-n-pay-start-accepting-cryptocurrency-payments-2022-11-01/

"One of South Africa's largest grocery retailers Pick n Pay (PIKJ.J) is expanding a pilot of adding cryptocurrency as a payment option to more stores after the successful completion of the first phase..."

"The announcement came weeks after the Financial Sector Conduct Authority formally declared crypto assets as a financial product in South Africa, enabling them to be regulated and clearing the way for cryptocurrency to be a mainstream method of payment."

"Pick n Pay has partnered with Electrum and CryptoConvert on its latest pilot. Electrum's payment platform connects Cryptoconvert and Pick n Pay, letting customers pay with the Bitcoin Lightning technology at the till point, the company added."

I thought it was time to post some positive news, because most news posted here are bad news. 

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[bbc.reporter]

I thought it was time to post some positive news, because most news posted here are bad news. 

I was beginning to reply something that might appear antagonistic, however, it might be better to leave at as good news without creating any arguments and giving it more realistic views. Let us wish and hope that many people will start using their bitcoins to shop for their needs in Pick n Pay hehe.

[Kakmakr]

I thought it was time to post some positive news, because most news posted here are bad news. 

I was beginning to reply something that might appear antagonistic, however, it might be better to leave at as good news without creating any arguments and giving it more realistic views. Let us wish and hope that many people will start using their bitcoins to shop for their needs in Pick n Pay hehe.

I am glad that you opted for a more positive reply, because we have too much negativity in our community... Pick n Pay is one of the biggest and oldest grocery retailers in South Africa and also in a lot of countries in Africa.

They have 1,628 stores in sub-Saharan Africa (968 company-owned and 660 franchised) ...so this is big news. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_n_Pay_Stores

[stompix]

Hihi seems like their partner cryptoconvert just added a bit of capacity over LN just at the start of the month probably when the partnership was finalized. Anyhow, it's still the best combination to date, you still keep your coins in your wallet and you pay over LN if the third party has enough funds and liquidity the strain on the main chain will be limited to a few transactions for thousands of clients.

The average cost of a transaction is 70 cents, Pick n Pay says.

I assume this is in rands, so 3 US cents, slowly we're getting rid of the "fees are higher than a coffee cup price" saga.
Now let's see how this goes!

[Lucius]

This would be good news if people generally use Bitcoin as a currency and not as an investment - and when we add to that payment via LN, which is still a big unknown for most, I am not too optimistic when it comes to the success of such projects. Some estimates say that SA has between 10% and 13% of investors in cryptocurrencies, which would amount to 6 million people who could be interested in this kind of service. Of course, these are only estimates that should be taken with a grain of salt.

South Africa was placed 30th globally for bitcoin adoption according to xxx 2022 Global Crypto Adoption Index, which was released in September. According to various estimates, between 10 and 13 percent of South Africans are crypto investors.

[SFR10]

To those who might be interested, here's "an article about a user that recently paid with lightning at Centurion Mall" and here's a "complete list of stores" that offers such a thing ^{[for now]}.

The supermarket chain allegedly started experimenting with Bitcoin payments five years ago in Cape Town but was stymied by expensive costs and long transaction wait times.

Based on the above quote and "this video", their little experiment didn't succeed in the past, but I'm glad they didn't give up ^{[unlike certain global brands]}!

[bbc.reporter]

This would be good news if people generally use Bitcoin as a currency and not as an investment - and when we add to that payment via LN, which is still a big unknown for most, I am not too optimistic when it comes to the success of such projects. Some estimates say that SA has between 10% and 13% of investors in cryptocurrencies, which would amount to 6 million people who could be interested in this kind of service. Of course, these are only estimates that should be taken with a grain of salt.

South Africa was placed 30th globally for bitcoin adoption according to xxx 2022 Global Crypto Adoption Index, which was released in September. According to various estimates, between 10 and 13 percent of South Africans are crypto investors.

Agreed, however, bitcoin's price volatility and the whole cryptospace market's price volatility against fiat is making this very difficult. I created a thread asking everyone if they wanted bitcoin to be stable in price, there were many replies that appear to have said they did not want it because they would not earn in their investment. Also, if bitcoin's price was always stable, would people really hold and use it? I reckon bitcoin's biggest appeal is as a speculative investment.

[Lucius]

Also, if bitcoin's price was always stable, would people really hold and use it? I reckon bitcoin's biggest appeal is as a speculative investment.

Of course, most people would never invest in Bitcoin if there wasn't such high volatility that can result in significant profits, I think that's clear to everyone. Here, of course, we clash with the conceptual idea that Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency as it was originally intended, but with time it became less and less attractive. People have always looked for reasons why Bitcoin as a currency is not good, and the main reasons were that the price is volatile, and that the confirmation of payment is not instant.

Part of the problem was solved by payment processors, and today with LN, payment with Bitcoin can be instant and very cheap - the only question is whether the average investor in Bitcoin will decide to use the same as a payment currency, or will remain only an investor looking for profit.

I think that even those who want to pay something with Bitcoin have certain reservations because they want to protect their privacy and not draw attention to themselves. Owning Bitcoin often means being a target not only of online hackers, but also of thieves who increasingly realize that it is much easier and more profitable to steal Bitcoin than to steal other things.

[Kakmakr]

This would be good news if people generally use Bitcoin as a currency and not as an investment - and when we add to that payment via LN, which is still a big unknown for most, I am not too optimistic when it comes to the success of such projects. Some estimates say that SA has between 10% and 13% of investors in cryptocurrencies, which would amount to 6 million people who could be interested in this kind of service. Of course, these are only estimates that should be taken with a grain of salt.

South Africa was placed 30th globally for bitcoin adoption according to xxx 2022 Global Crypto Adoption Index, which was released in September. According to various estimates, between 10 and 13 percent of South Africans are crypto investors.

Agreed, however, bitcoin's price volatility and the whole cryptospace market's price volatility against fiat is making this very difficult. I created a thread asking everyone if they wanted bitcoin to be stable in price, there were many replies that appear to have said they did not want it because they would not earn in their investment. Also, if bitcoin's price was always stable, would people really hold and use it? I reckon bitcoin's biggest appeal is as a speculative investment.

This is one of the reasons why Bitcoin is struggling as a "Currency" .....because it is just too attractive as a "Commodity" and most countries define it as a "Commodity" and not as a "Currency"

Also, with the recent price drop of Bitcoin, people will rather hoard their coins, until it recover... and then spend it when it is worth more in the Fiat value. So I think the timing for this "test" run is not good.... and they might once again ....see very little people using it to buy at Pick n Pay! 

[bbc.reporter]

@Kakmakr. It is not because of how bitcoin is defined that makes it an unattractive option to use as a currency. It is because of how the price of bitcoin behaves in the market. It is too volatile and this is caused by its own monetary policy. Limited supply with different levels of demand will certainly give us an asset that will be very volatile.

Also, a limited supply also encourages hoarding. Do you see those people who tell everyone to hodl? Those people are the hoarders.

[Kakmakr]

@Kakmakr. It is not because of how bitcoin is defined that makes it an unattractive option to use as a currency. It is because of how the price of bitcoin behaves in the market. It is too volatile and this is caused by its own monetary policy. Limited supply with different levels of demand will certainly give us an asset that will be very volatile.

Also, a limited supply also encourages hoarding. Do you see those people who tell everyone to hodl? Those people are the hoarders.

The hoarders are hoarding, because Whales are using their huge hoard to manipulate the price. When we have a more even distribution of bitcoins amongst more people, the price volatility will decrease and Bitcoin will be better suited as a currency.

Until then.... companies will use third party Payment processors to counter the fluctuations in the price. (This is an immediate conversion of Crypto currencies to Fiat.... and has zero advantages for Bitcoin as a technology)   

[Ludmilla_rose1995]

This would be good news if people generally use Bitcoin as a currency and not as an investment - and when we add to that payment via LN, which is still a big unknown for most, I am not too optimistic when it comes to the success of such projects. Some estimates say that SA has between 10% and 13% of investors in cryptocurrencies, which would amount to 6 million people who could be interested in this kind of service. Of course, these are only estimates that should be taken with a grain of salt.

South Africa was placed 30th globally for bitcoin adoption according to xxx 2022 Global Crypto Adoption Index, which was released in September. According to various estimates, between 10 and 13 percent of South Africans are crypto investors.

Agreed, however, bitcoin's price volatility and the whole cryptospace market's price volatility against fiat is making this very difficult. I created a thread asking everyone if they wanted bitcoin to be stable in price, there were many replies that appear to have said they did not want it because they would not earn in their investment. Also, if bitcoin's price was always stable, would people really hold and use it? I reckon bitcoin's biggest appeal is as a speculative investment.

actually, Bitcoin blows our minds LOL,, Bitcoin is very suitable to be used as an investment and also a payment. I never like and want the price of Bitcoin to be stable because that will make Bitcoin not much different from stable fiat. apparently the enthusiasm of the people of South Africa is quite large and it is certain that payment via bitcoin will be a big success there, Pick n Pay changes the habits of South Africans in payments for the better.

[SFR10]

I never like and want the price of Bitcoin to be stable because that will make Bitcoin not much different from stable fiat.

Even if the price of Bitcoin was somewhat stable, there would still be a big difference between the two ^{[e.g. their nature]} and it's also worth mentioning that none of the fiat currencies are really stable ^{[in the majority of cases, fluctuations are less severe and that makes it unnoticeable to some]}!

and it is certain that payment via bitcoin will be a big success there,

I hope so, but as things stand, it's not ^{[unfortunately]}:

• Only 100+ users have downloaded the "CryptoQR app ^{[one of the two apps that are required for making such payments (refer to "Testing Guide" section)]}" on the Play Store and considering that the first phase of the pilot test ran for 5 months ^{[plus another month that has passed]}, the numbers aren't high enough to show or rather have a bright future ahead.

[Kakmakr]

I never like and want the price of Bitcoin to be stable because that will make Bitcoin not much different from stable fiat.

Even if the price of Bitcoin was somewhat stable, there would still be a big difference between the two ^{[e.g. their nature]} and it's also worth mentioning that none of the fiat currencies are really stable ^{[in the majority of cases, fluctuations are less severe and that makes it unnoticeable to some]}!

and it is certain that payment via bitcoin will be a big success there,

I hope so, but as things stand, it's not ^{[unfortunately]}:

• Only 100+ users have downloaded the "CryptoQR app ^{[one of the two apps that are required for making such payments (refer to "Testing Guide" section)]}" on the Play Store and considering that the first phase of the pilot test ran for 5 months ^{[plus another month that has passed]}, the numbers aren't high enough to show or rather have a bright future ahead.

I think more people should do a study on the reason why the adoption is so low, because we have to pinpoint where the problem is. Every "Crypto" payment should be followed by a small questionnaire, to rate the process and to find out what the customer experience was.

This can be done in the pilot phase to see if they find it too difficult or if the volatility is the issue. Most companies start this, because they see it as a new income source.... and they quickly drop it, when usage is low. 

[Lucius]

I think more people should do a study on the reason why the adoption is so low, because we have to pinpoint where the problem is.

Do we need research for that? The reason is simple, most of those who own Bitcoin or an altcoin own it as an investment and do not want (or do not know how) to use it as a currency. I personally know several dozen people who own cryptocurrencies, and I have never heard from any of them that they have paid anything with them - regardless of the fact that we have a lot of options where we can do it.

[Kakmakr]

I think more people should do a study on the reason why the adoption is so low, because we have to pinpoint where the problem is.

Do we need research for that? The reason is simple, most of those who own Bitcoin or an altcoin own it as an investment and do not want (or do not know how) to use it as a currency. I personally know several dozen people who own cryptocurrencies, and I have never heard from any of them that they have paid anything with them - regardless of the fact that we have a lot of options where we can do it.

Yes.... Data & research are power...

We want to know what will motivate people to spend their coins and what are preventing them from using it as a currency. (We know one of the reasons are speculation and investment)

The reasons might be as simple as :

1. Tax complications (VAT)
2. Accounting problems
3. Lack of regulations & laws and uncertainty regarding Crypto's legal status.
4. Complexity of the payments over Fiat payments. (Process to get coins / Apps ... etc)
5. The transaction confirmation times. (If you are not using the Lightning Network)
6. Payment processors and their ToS

I hope you see where I am going with this.....  

[Lucius]

Yes.... Data & research are power...

We want to know what will motivate people to spend their coins and what are preventing them from using it as a currency. (We know one of the reasons are speculation and investment)

The matter is quite clear to me (at least as far as the specific case is concerned), but also from many other cases that I know about from this forum over the years. You can have a thousand researches and gather data, but that won't change the philosophy of people (the majority) to look at Bitcoin as an investment and not as a currency to pay for goods or services.

Another important thing that we may often overlook is what I already mentioned, which is the privacy concern when paying with Bitcoin. In some environments, it is not very desirable to discover such things, and this is perhaps one of the reasons why people in the SAR are not too thrilled with this choice.

[stompix]

The reasons might be as simple as :
~

The reason is pretty simple, nobody wants to spend something that might earn them x10 more if they hold for one year.
The whole thing about VAT or taxes or ToS is just an excuse, I doubt more than 10% actually pay taxes even for the money they withdraw via banks, VAT is not a problem at all since you pay it on purchases in every country that has VAT and no sale tax, and the thing about the ToS, common, there are people who hand over all their details copies of their papers and selfies to companies they don't even know where are located, what more compliance you would want.

The reality is that 99% of the ones involved in crypto think Laszlo was stupid to buy a pizza with bitcoins cause if he didn't he would be rich now, completely missing the point that if it weren't for early usage it's highly possible none of us would be here right now. After all, what would be the purpose of a coin nobody wants to part with?

The matter is quite clear to me (at least as far as the specific case is concerned), but also from many other cases that I know about from this forum over the years. You can have a thousand researches and gather data, but that won't change the philosophy of people (the majority) to look at Bitcoin as an investment and not as a currency to pay for goods or services.

There is no need for those researchers at all, we can look at the blockchain and see the number of traction is going down, and if we look at the value of the coins right now over LN, the total capacity in $ is actually decreasing, not even mentioning that in the last month for the first time even the BTC value has gone down.
Probably only when we've reached a point where everyone would understand an x10 x5 jump is no longer feasible overnight we might start seeing people actively using their coins.
It is what it is and he has to live with it, like it or not, I'm starting to believe more and more that even deciding on a common goal is impossible, everyone will use it as it sees fit, no matter how a this might turn to be longterm.

[Kakmakr]

Listen guys.... the "profit" hunters will always be there.... and they are the ones that needs to be flushed from this technology. The only way to do this, is for the price to be stable. The only way for that to happen, is for more people to buy small quantities of bitcoin and for them to use it.

My strategy has always been to buy bitcoins and then to apply the 80/20 rule. You hoard 80% of the coins you buy and you spend 20% of those coins so that the merchants and retailers that support Bitcoin, could continue doing it. (If everyone starts to do that, more coins will be evenly distributed and the price will become more stable..... and we know speculators do not like a stable price... because they want volatility to make fast profits)

We should just spread this strategy to more people and Bitcoin as a currency, will become more favorable. (You can convert Fiat to Bitcoin for those expenses that you can use Bitcoin..... for me that is my daily food budget) 

[Lucius]

We should just spread this strategy to more people and Bitcoin as a currency, will become more favorable. (You can convert Fiat to Bitcoin for those expenses that you can use Bitcoin..... for me that is my daily food budget) 

Isn't that what I'm doing? But do you think that at least 10% of the members of this forum are interested in that, or that it makes any sense? The thing is that for years various influential people have been promoting Bitcoin as an investment, and they are telling us to make as few transactions as possible because we are harming the environment and that we will remain in the dark because Bitcoin will consume all the electricity...

How to fight against someone who has more followers on a social network than there are active Bitcoin users?

There is no need for those researchers at all, we can look at the blockchain and see the number of traction is going down, and if we look at the value of the coins right now over LN, the total capacity in $ is actually decreasing, not even mentioning that in the last month for the first time even the BTC value has gone down.

Such things are logical in a bear market, most of those who bought above $20k, not to mention those who bought at double or even three times the price, are now waiting for better times, having learned from past experiences. If anything has been certain so far, it is the bet on halving and its effects.