[PETITION] Create a "Get your funds out of exchanges" in Important Announcements

[NotATether]

Following my post on this thread:

This is a valid point of concern because when exchanges are sinking they take down their investors funds with them. Having said that, will theymos allow for the banner display to happen?

I cannot see him adding a not your keys not your coins banner (especially for free) as a warning no matter how much momentum the campaign gathers. Even paid banner advertising was discontinued therefore if financial gain or placement of free public announcement for benefit of the community will not sway his opinion, then what will?



Is something like this what you mean?

I believe Not Your Keys Not Your Coins is even more important right now than something like, say, my own activist campaign considering that a lot of people are going to lose money if they do not see this information very clearly.

I see two options:

1: Put it in the News banner. I don't think you can put custom text in the blue bar, and a factoid is inappropriate for something as important as this.
2: Make a thread in Important Announcements board. Not about FTX but about not your keys, not your coins, and reference Celsius and FTX as recent examples. The last announcement was made in 2018 related to Electrum vulnerabilities, when a lot of people were at risk of losing their money too. So I think it's wholly appropriate.

2 is more advantageous, as you can lobby any global moderator or VIP to post it there without bothering theymos.

I have come to the conclusion that a number of people find it very important to warn people about the dangers of leaving your coins on exchanges and yield platforms, considering that they are falling like flies all year and are perfectly capable of continuing to fall like this well into next year as well.

It is in every bitcoiner and crypto user's best interest to protect other users' funds so that they don't fall into a 3rd-party centralized black hole.

Unfortunately, there is no prominent thread in Important Announcements that addresses this. Actually, almost nobody goes to that board anyway so they will only look at the topic title most likely, so it will need to be to-the-point. Only then will it stand a chance in being noticed.

o_e_l_e_o's excellent thread on the subject can be linked for additional reading if desired.

The exact title and contents of the topic will need to be discussed by the community so that a consensus is reached, but I intend to have a global mod or VIP member post it on our behalf.

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[NotATether]

This will be the post title and body unless people have complaints about it: This post will be revised within 12 hours to reflect the new suggestions.

Title: Withdraw your bitcoins from online accounts now!

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts

When you log into a site and it says that you have a balance of "1 BTC" or "1 USD", this does not actually mean that you have that money. Rather, it means that the company showing you this balance owes you that money. In other words, you've given a loan to the exchange. Maybe the exchange will pay you back, but history is littered with defunct exchanges which were widely trusted at the time but ended up not paying back their depositors.

To the greatest extent possible, you should always avoid keeping BTC (or anything else) in online accounts. This is especially important right now because a very large exchange went bankrupt recently, and this may cause a contagion effect which will take down other sites which accept deposits.

Ideally, you should keep your BTC in a wallet where only you control the private keys. Here are some good options:

• For desktops, use Electrum. It also has an Android version.
• For iOS, you can use Bluewallet.
• If you also need to store altcoins, Trust Wallet is a good option.
• If you have a large amount of any coin, store them in a hardware wallet. Reputable hardware wallet vendors include Trezor and Ledger. Do not store large amounts of crypto on an exchange.

Be vigilant - make sure you download the legit wallets and not counterfeit copies of them.

Also, note that many DeFi systems are either fundamentally centralized despite using DeFi tokens/contracts and are therefore about as risky as online wallets, or they are potentially vulnerable to the FTX contagion due to the way that they're designed. Avoid depositing crypto in any service that promises you a monthly or yearly yield, because those services are inherently unstable and are vulnerable to collapse, such as Celsius.

[jackg]

This feels like it's going to throw fuel in the fire if the forum agrees to do it now. It also might put more investor funds at risk by spreading fud - bad exchanges could still have enough funds to make withdrawals possible if they don't have all client funds now by making them back from fees (like bitfinex did).

Doing something like this might only benefit one party (binance - the largest exchange based on volume). It's not clear but completely logical they've done the above (used user funds to do risky things and made it back more than enough in fees and investments to make them able to think they have enough money to cover all their clients' funds and accounts.

I'd agree in education on using dexes, avoiding cexes and practicing due diligence to ensure you hold custody of your funds and keep them.

[stompix]

It also might put more investor funds at risk by spreading fud -

Oh for god's sake let's just stop with the FUD!

Every single time there is news that nobody likes, it's FUD!
China banning mining, is FUD, the hashrate dropping in half, the avalanche of used miners on the market, all the big farm owners' interviews while on the move, everything was FUD because some didn't like the fact that bad things do happen!
And it's not FUD, they are real, beyond uncertain easy-to-proven facts!

Terra was FUD, Celsius was FUD, FTX was FUD, let's go back to 2013 and there were people saying MtGox being insolvent is FUD!

I just read this the other day:

Exactly! I am also a victim here, at first when the issue started to pop public, I am really saying it was just a FUD, I tried to withdraw a small number of funds from the FTX exchange and went succeeded, but after a few hours when withdrawals halted, I deposited some amount which my plan is just to convert it to another chain and until now the withdrawal is still pending.

It's just FUD! No problem! Not a worry!

And speaking of "investors" how do we put their funds at risk when the message is to keep your funds safe, in your won wallet not guarded by some wannabe 3.0 banker and his 20 roommates?

[AB de Royse777]

Enough with the babysitting. It's a forum not a financial advising institute.
Next time when a user will lose his private key and can not access his wallet, he will say they said not to use an exchange.

[Falconer]

And speaking of "investors" how do we put their funds at risk when the message is to keep your funds safe, in your won wallet not guarded by some wannabe 3.0 banker and his 20 roommates?

It didn't take long, some rogue journalists seemed to be able to easily create FUDs on their news pages and share them on social media. In fact, it happened many times and recently they spread FUD about FTX by making bitcoin a scapegoat.

People are easily swayed by FUD, so each step may have to be carefully thought out before an otherwise good idea is misinterpreted by someone else who takes advantage of the situation.

[DaveF]

I think a more long worded message would be better. Some things might get lost in the needed text but telling people all the risks may make some people stop and think.
Will it get more then just "not your keys not your coins" and "Get your funds out of exchanges" is a tough call.

Exchanges are unsafe and you should not leave your coins on them because........
Here is the risk of not believing not your keys not your coins......
Non KYC exchanges are better for privacy but they can spring it on you at any time......
If an exchange looks like it's run out of an old PC in somebody's garage it probably is.....

It's a lot for new people to take in.

The other issue is the last post in Important Announcements is the electum vulnerability from 4 years ago and people are still getting following links to electum malware sites:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5229836.0 that page is still getting hits from other referrers and a bunch of 404s trying to hit the malware file....

-Dave

[theymos]

I don't like the idea of a permanent banner, but a post in Important Announcements isn't a bad idea, especially since the FTX contagion is likely to cause several more bankruptcies over the coming weeks/months. Because the FTX issue is likely to trigger bankruptcies soon, this is time-sensitive, and so it'd be best to post it in the next ~36 hours.

A quick draft:

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts

When you log into a site and it says that you have a balance of "1 BTC" or "1 USD", this does not actually mean that you have that money. Rather, it means that the company showing you this balance owes you that money. In other words, you've given a loan to the exchange. Maybe the exchange will pay you back, but history is littered with defunct exchanges which were widely trusted at the time but ended up not paying back their depositors.

To the greatest extent possible, you should always avoid keeping BTC (or anything else) in online accounts. This is especially important right now because a very large exchange went bankrupt recently, and this may cause a contagion effect which will take down other sites which accept deposits.

Ideally, you should keep your BTC in a wallet where only you control the private keys. Here are some good options:
<insert list here>

Also, note that many DeFi systems are either fundamentally centralized despite using DeFi tokens/contracts and are therefore about as risky as online wallets, or they are potentially vulnerable to the FTX contagion due to the way that they're designed. <maybe insert more details here?>

Which are the best wallets for total newbies? Anyone who will actually need the advice in this post will need something very easy, so I don't want to list something too difficult. Probably I should just list one app for iPhone, one app available on Android via Google Play, and maybe one hardware wallet. (Linux/Windows/Mac wallets are too risky for newbies, I think.)

I'm not very familiar with DeFi systems. Should more be said about them?

[BTCGalaxyA12]

Storing funds on an exchange will not be safe because when something happens like what happened to FTX it will be a problem. What about traders looking to make a profit by day trading?
They definitely don't withdraw all funds from the exchange where they trade with the consideration that for the next day there is no need to make a deposit again.

Please answer.
Don't scold me if I'm wrong.

[_BlackStar]

-snip-

As long as you can afford to lose, what's the problem?
But it is a good security idea for you and others if you want to invest in bitcoin or other crypto assets. If you care about the long-term security of your assets, then the choice is a hardware wallet or a non-custodial bitcoin wallet.

OP's idea got great response from admins, so this would be a really helpful suggestion for forum members regarding security practices in storing its assets. But I hope it's never going to be so extreme FUD to imagine.

[DooMAD]

Could we maybe get a link in the News: bar if a full banner is too much?

Doing something like this might only benefit one party (binance - the largest exchange based on volume).  

Surely that just means they've got the most to lose?  If there is a mass exodus from exchanges, I would have assumed the more popular exchanges would take the biggest hit.

[Z-tight]

Which are the best wallets for total newbies? Anyone who will actually need the advice in this post will need something very easy, so I don't want to list something too difficult.

I feel electrum wallet is just fine, it is open-source and easy to use, and newbies can either run it on their mobile device or desktop, they can also either use it as a hot wallet or for cold or offline storage. Mycellium is another good option that can be included.

BlueWallet is also good for iphone users because electrum is unavailable on ios.

[NotATether]

Which are the best wallets for total newbies? Anyone who will actually need the advice in this post will need something very easy, so I don't want to list something too difficult.

I feel electrum wallet is just fine, it is open-source and easy to use, and newbies can either run it on their mobile device or desktop, they can also either use it as a hot wallet or for cold or offline storage. Mycellium is another good option that can be included.

BlueWallet is also good for iphone users because electrum is unavailable on ios.

Mycelium has been running ads for 1xbit (at least on Android - the iOS version has been running on an outdated codebase for ages) so I do not trust them not to sell out to the next big scammer one bit.

Electrum is fine. So is Electrum for Android & Trezor.

I have never used Bluewallet before, but I hear that people like it, so I would include it immediately considering this will be posted in ~36 hours according to Theymos.

However, considering that we are trying to get traders among other people off of exchanges, those guys use multi-coin wallets, so something like Trust Wallet with an open-source core would be the best recommendation for all platforms. Might want to add it as a second option for traders rather than HODLers.

[DaveF]

BlueWallet is also good for iphone users because electrum is unavailable on ios.

BlueWallet is a good choice since it supports hardware wallets too. AND their site has a bunch of how to videos that are actually useful.
Not to mention lightning support too.

Would discussing the security of hardware wallets in addition be good or take the warning too far off the point?

-Dave

[PowerGlove]

[...]

That draft looks good to me!

Is there anything in place (like a popup after login) to draw attention to new posts in that section, though? Because I'm not sure I would notice it myself (at least not quickly).

If it's time-sensitive (i.e. the more people that notice it quickly, the better) then maybe it's a good idea to temporarily have a stickied post on the parent board (Bitcoin Discussion) that refers to the one in "Important Announcements"?

[NotATether]

Would discussing the security of hardware wallets in addition be good or take the warning too far off the point?

We don't want to turn it into a wallet comparison topic, Lauda already made a sticked topic in Beginners and Help for that: [General] Bitcoin Wallets - Which, what, why?

I will improve on theymos' draft to make it read as follows:

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts

When you log into a site and it says that you have a balance of "1 BTC" or "1 USD", this does not actually mean that you have that money. Rather, it means that the company showing you this balance owes you that money. In other words, you've given a loan to the exchange. Maybe the exchange will pay you back, but history is littered with defunct exchanges which were widely trusted at the time but ended up not paying back their depositors.

To the greatest extent possible, you should always avoid keeping BTC (or anything else) in online accounts. This is especially important right now because a very large exchange went bankrupt recently, and this may cause a contagion effect which will take down other sites which accept deposits.

Ideally, you should keep your BTC in a wallet where only you control the private keys. Here are some good options:

• For desktops, use Electrum. It also has an Android version.
• For iOS, you can use Bluewallet.
• If you also need to store altcoins, Trust Wallet is a good option.
• If you have a large amount of any coin, store them in a hardware wallet. Reputable hardware wallet vendors include Trezor and Ledger. Do not store large amounts of crypto on an exchange.

Be vigilant - make sure you download the legit wallets and not counterfeit copies of them.

Also, note that many DeFi systems are either fundamentally centralized despite using DeFi tokens/contracts and are therefore about as risky as online wallets, or they are potentially vulnerable to the FTX contagion due to the way that they're designed. Avoid depositing crypto in any service that promises you a monthly or yearly yield, because those services are inherently unstable and are vulnerable to collapse, such as Celsius.

Given my recent comments about Ledger privacy it might seem surprising to some of you to see me put it on the list, that is because not everyone agrees with me about Ledger and I do not want the announcement thread to become polarized or to make the forum look like it's a gigantic Trezor shill.

I'm not very familiar with DeFi systems. Should more be said about them?

Let's leave it at what you wrote, because honestly I don't understand the topic at all, neither does the average crypto user probably. But we should warn them to avoid "yield" platforms that promise you a percentage APR because these platforms are inherently unstable.

[shahzadafzal]

I partially agree... I will fully agree if title is changed to..

"Get your funds bitcoins out of exchanges"

or

Title: Withdraw your crypto bitcoin from online accounts now!

A quick draft:

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts
.....

No please.. it's so misleading.

See the second post, I updated the title.

You are fast!!!!

[NotATether]

I partially agree... I will fully agree if title is changed to..

"Get your funds bitcoins out of exchanges"

See the second post, I updated the title.


Meanwhile, the reverberation is beginning:

Crypto Exchange AAX Suspends Withdrawals as FTX Failure Reverberates

We need to get this pushed out ASAP.

[o_e_l_e_o]

Some suggestions:

and this may cause a contagion effect which will take down other sites which accept deposits.

Not "may", but rather "already is". Various exchanges have already frozen assets and halted withdrawals.

If you also need to store altcoins, Trust Wallet is a good option.

Do not recommend Trust wallet. It is closed source and owned by Binance. Given that FTX's apps became malware in the days after their insolvency, recommending any software owned by a centralized exchange should be avoided.

Also, note that many DeFi systems are either fundamentally centralized despite using DeFi tokens/contracts and are therefore about as risky as online wallets, or they are potentially vulnerable to the FTX contagion due to the way that they're designed. Avoid depositing crypto in any service that promises you a monthly or yearly yield, because those services are inherently unstable and are vulnerable to collapse, such as Celsius.

I would remove the second sentence as it makes non yield projects sound safer by omission. I would also expand to cover centralized altcoins. Perhaps this:

Also, note that many altcoins, tokens, and DeFi projects are either fundamentally centralized and therefore as risky as centralized exchanges and online wallets, or are equally vulnerable to the FTX contagion due to the way that they're designed.

Don't add any more. Too long and people don't read it.

[Z-tight]

Is there anything in place (like a popup after login) to draw attention to new posts in that section, though? Because I'm not sure I would notice it myself (at least not quickly).

If it's time-sensitive (i.e. the more people that notice it quickly, the better) then maybe it's a good idea to temporarily have a stickied post on the parent board (Bitcoin Discussion) that refers to the one in "Important Announcements"?

I believe one of this is necessary though, because i don't think that board is popular, especially among newbies that the message may be most important too, newbies are more active in the beginners and help board than bitcoin discussion, and even in bitcoin discussion i don't think many of them visit the child boards of which important announcement is one of them.

If that thread is made in important announcement board, i'm sorry but i think mostly those who already know they should not hold BTC in online or centralized accounts are the people that will see it very early, and newbies and other junior members may only get to know about it if their attention is drawn there in someway.

I suggest that if the thread is made, there can be a voluntary campaign for people to include the thread link in their personal text, like many of us did with NotATether's bitcoin cleanup campaign, it will get more attention that way and we don't have to disturb Theymos for a 'popup after login' or to have it stickied.