[PETITION] Create a "Get your funds out of exchanges" in Important Announcements

[bitmover]

A quick draft:

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts
.....

In my opinion the message should be as simple as possible.
Recommending software is difficult, as each user has its own needs, and what is good for one person might be incompatible with other one OS (for example, there is no electrum for iphone).

On the end, what people need is knowledge/education about bitcoin and blockchain. However, most people who leave funds on exchanges are just trading and want a quick buck.

Education is an act that requires effort. It is not possible to educate people with a message, even if it is a complete and long one. A short message can spark curiosity and make many people search about private keys and solve their problem.

[1714684801]

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[LDL]

In fact, day by day people's trust is decreasing from cryptocurrency, especially recently, the way centralized exchanges are killing people's money, people will lose complete trust from centralized exchanges in the coming future.
However, a centralized exchange means someone else's wallet is your cryptocurrency.  Whatever you put on a centralized exchange will never be recognized as your property.  Now is the time to seize your property.  Like MTGox in 2014, Kucoin hacked in 2020, and most recently the most infamous FTX hacked in 2022 has posed a serious threat to cryptocurrency.  So there is a saying that keeping your cryptocurrency on a centralized exchange is like feeding a chicken to a fox.

Centralized exchanges/wallets

Decentralized exchanges on the other hand mean your wallet is your property.  Decentralized exchanges have no ownership rights, just like no one else owns your wallet.  So it goes without saying that if you have the private key stored then no one can hack your cryptocurrency wallet.

Decentralised Exchanges/wallets

[NotATether]

I suggest that if the thread is made, there can be a voluntary campaign for people to include the thread link in their personal text, like many of us did with NotATether's bitcoin cleanup campaign, it will get more attention that way and we don't have to disturb Theymos for a 'popup after login' or to have it stickied.

I can't wear two avatars at once though.

The thread doesn't need to be stickied nor does a popup have to be made, 90% of readers (bounty hunters are excluded) go straight to the Bitcoin Discussion section. There is Important Announcements subboard, with this title waiting for them to click on.

A quick draft:

Reminder: do not keep your money in online accounts
.....

No please.. it's so misleading.

Why don't we replace the world "online accounts" with "custodial services"? That should be less ambiguous, and is applicable to all centralized crypto platforms as opposed to just exchanges.

Some suggestions:

If you also need to store altcoins, Trust Wallet is a good option.

Do not recommend Trust wallet. It is closed source and owned by Binance. Given that FTX's apps became malware in the days after their insolvency, recommending any software owned by a centralized exchange should be avoided.

OK, I forgot that Trust was owned by Binance (how could I have forgot??).

I do not know any high-quality multi coin wallets, so lets add another sentence after the hardware wallets point saying: "Only deposit as much crypto as you need to trade, and withdraw it immediately afterwards.

[Welsh]

Why don't we replace the world "online accounts" with "custodial services"? That should be less ambiguous, and is applicable to all centralized crypto platforms as opposed to just exchanges.

Some users might not actually know what custodial is, and might mix it up. You could say that we're hand holding too much, but a online accounts probably covers us the most. I guess we could say something along the lines of online accounts, and wallets that don't provide you with the private key. The thing is, the more technical we get about things, the more it'll go over people's head's, especially since we're aiming at newer users, and not just experienced users.

I'm not one for words, but I'm sure taking that into consideration someone could whip something up that's not only concise, but would be clear to all parties reading it, regardless of experience level, but also English proficiency should probably be considered. A non native speaker might not be familiar with the word custodial, and it's meaning, and then we're sort of relying on them doing that research, again which they won't wouldn't.

It needs to be plain as day, and not require any additional research, ideally. Though, they should be doing their own research, we know that most users won't go into those depths. Just my thoughts, although I'll probably be accused of hand holding too much, which I guess depending on your perspective could be a fair assessment.

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

• Reputable hardware wallet vendors include Trezor and Ledger.

I would not like officially the forum to mention such wallet names which have business associated with it. You are giving them an advantage from others that are in the market. On the other hand when something will go wrong with any of them mentioned then people will have scope to say they were recommended by bitcointalk forum. We do not want to take any responsibility of anything.

[NotATether]

• Reputable hardware wallet vendors include Trezor and Ledger.

I would not like officially the forum to mention such wallet names which have business associated with it. You are giving them an advantage from others that are in the market. On the other hand when something will go wrong with any of them mentioned then people will have scope to say they were recommended by bitcointalk forum. We do not want to take any responsibility of anything.

That is true. From now on, there will be no more naming hardware wallets. Only specific software wallets will be named [and the list is vanishingly small - Electrum, Bluewallet, and then you have the option of using a hardware wallet, quickly trading some funds on an exchange, and then send them all back to the HW.]

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It is in every bitcoiner and crypto user's best interest to protect other users' funds so that they don't fall into a 3rd-party centralized black hole.

Normally I wouldn't agree with that statement 100%, but considering the fact that every time something like the FTX debacle goes down it brings crypto closer and closer to being highly regulated, I've softened my stance on trying to protect people from making potentially bankrupting mistakes--at least to the extent that it can be done without also being paternalistic (which was mentioned in the other thread about putting a warning header on bitcointalk).

Unfortunately, all it takes to really get the message about keeping your funds on exchanges or yield farming sites is just a few days' worth of reading on the forum, and I'm kind of pessimistic as to how much any of us can help.  Still, I'm all for having a thread (anywhere on the forum) or a banner or something similar.  As I said before, it can't hurt and can only help.

[theymos]

Thanks for your comments: I incorporated several suggestions. I think that the usefulness of this announcement decays with every passing hour, so I went ahead and posted it. I'll also link to it in the news bar for a couple of weeks. The post can still be edited, of course.

Has anyone used the Unstoppable wallet? Is it a good alternative to Trust Wallet?

I partially agree... I will fully agree if title is changed to..

"Get your funds bitcoins out of exchanges"

or

Title: Withdraw your crypto bitcoin from online accounts now!

"Withdraw now" strikes me as a bit too alarmist, and I prefer the term "online account". "Exchange" is too narrow, while trying to be more exact with a phrase like "centralized exchanges, yield sites, and many tokens" is too confusing.

Note that even USD in exchanges is at risk, whether or not it's a stablecoin or a non-stablecoin account balance. If the exchange goes bankrupt, typically the USD will be an unsecured liability owed to you by the exchange, the same as any other asset associated with your account.

But we should warn them to avoid "yield" platforms that promise you a percentage APR because these platforms are inherently unstable.

I agree that yield-farming stuff (whether DeFi or CeFi) is very risky in general, and especially right now when $2-10 billion in "money" was just removed from the crypto economy overnight. I adjusted the wording to emphasize that yield products are included. "Inherently unstable" goes a bit too far, though, IMO. For example, some decentralized exchanges and over-collateralized lending pools seem pretty robust at least in principle, and many of them will probably survive.

I would not like officially the forum to mention such wallet names which have business associated with it. You are giving them an advantage from others that are in the market. On the other hand when something will go wrong with any of them mentioned then people will have scope to say they were recommended by bitcointalk forum. We do not want to take any responsibility of anything.

I don't consider it to be an issue. Those clearly are the two leading hardware wallet manufacturers, and merely mentioning them is not an endorsement.

[PowerGlove]

[...]

Seeing it posted, the only (not really important) feedback I have is that FTX should either be mentioned more than once or not at all, because right now the single mention right at the end of the post reads (to the uninitiated) like "FTX contagion" is a general concept and not a specific incident. Other than that nitpick, looks good to me!

[theymos]

the single mention right at the end of the post reads (to the uninitiated) like "FTX contagion" is a general concept and not a specific incident. Other than that nitpick, looks good to me!

Good point, edited. Thanks.

[Agbe]

All active members in the forum have heard or have experienced what is happening to some crypto exchange firms in the ecosystem. So because of that the overall boss has dropped a warning to everyone in the forum to keep their huge Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies in their wallets/safe place. Most people have seen the news and many have not see it. And for those who have not read the news should go here. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421039.0 this news is for everyone in the forum, therefore, everyone is expected to read it and protect your coins.

[JollyGood]

I hope the step you have taken to incorporate the suggestions can bring more attention to crypto users frequenting the forum (especially newbies) to the realities of how an exchange heading to bankruptcy can literally ruin them financially as they will never be reunited with their funds again. If anything, they might be fortunate enough to receive a tiny amount of their original holdings several years down the line after lawyers, liquidators and administrators have mostly emptied out what they recovered.

Thanks for your comments: I incorporated several suggestions. I think that the usefulness of this announcement decays with every passing hour, so I went ahead and posted it. I'll also link to it in the news bar for a couple of weeks. The post can still be edited, of course.

[_BlackStar]

And for those who have not read the news should go here. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5421039.0 this news is for everyone in the forum, therefore, everyone is expected to read it and protect your coins.

All users can also access the news if they realize that there is already a news link at the bottom of the avatar. I hope many users don't go through it.



The best thing now is to move all assets on online platform to wallet, be it from exchanges or other platforms and maybe also casinos. I'm not against them keeping it in their online accounts if they trade, but they should be aware of the risks.

[dkbit98]

Has anyone used the Unstoppable wallet? Is it a good alternative to Trust Wallet?

It's far from perfect, but currently it's one of the best open source multi-coin wallets I know, and it's certainly better than Trust wallet.
I like that is has Tor option for better privacy, and it was audited several times so I think it's safe enough to be used as pocket money wallet.
For people that only need Bitcoin mobile wallet I would still recommend Electrum, Blue wallet or Blockstream Green wallet.

[NotATether]

Voting is now locked considering that this thread has accomplished its purpose. I will leave the thread itself open for a little while so that wallet discussions can continue to be held here.

[JollyGood]

Well done for starting the campaign in the aftermath of the FTX debacle. It is a positive result because you achieved what you set out to do and in the process hopefully people will end up reading the warnings and will understand the possible dangers involved when using exchanges to store crypto.

Voting is now locked considering that this thread has accomplished its purpose. I will leave the thread itself open for a little while so that wallet discussions can continue to be held here.

[onecall123]

The phrase "Not your keys, not your coins" is used frequently. Such a large number of people are wrecked despite so many warnings. It is possible for any centralized third party service, such as Binance, Coinbase, etc, to freeze our account. Currently, moving our stuff out of exchanges is the better solution. Cold wallets are a safe way to store digital assets. Would it mean the end of crypto if someone like Binance went bankrupt too?

[Apocollapse]

For people that only need Bitcoin mobile wallet I would still recommend Electrum, Blue wallet or Blockstream Green wallet.

Blockstream Green Wallet has a centralization problem since they hold one of your private key which mean you can't import your wallet from Blockstream Green Wallet to other wallet, this mean you will lose access to your wallet. Although they're non-custodial, better UI/UX and open source, but this problem is really critical IMO. This is the reason why I prefer to use Electrum or Blue wallet.

Would it mean the end of crypto if someone like Binance went bankrupt too?

Yep, it's the end of shitcoins since these coins only listed on centralized exchanges. But Bitcoin wouldn't end since you can trade via P2P or using decentralized exchange e.g. Bisq.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Some users might not actually know what custodial is, and might mix it up.

I agree with that--I just woke up and saw that Theymos has added some text as a warning, and I'm very glad to see that.  And as far as wording goes, since I think it's primarily newbies that need the warning, and since probably a lot of those newbies don't have an extensive English vocabulary, said wording should be as simple as possible.  What's written looks just fine to me, and even better is that it's a link to the thread discussing all of this crap going on.

I'm glad you took this suggestion, Theymos.  Hopefully it'll help some members avoid scams or at the very least will lead them to a discussion where they can get information that'll help them be more informed.  Props!

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

I'm glad you took this suggestion, Theymos.  Hopefully it'll help some members avoid scams or at the very least will lead them to a discussion where they can get information that'll help them be more informed.  Props!

I doubt it will change anything but good work, we tried our best. Truth is, people will still keep their coins in the exchanges, still when the next exchange will bite the dust we will see many people are losing their money and blaming the exchanges. True decentralization will only can be enjoyed once we will have the entire ecosystem decentralized in terms of trading. We need decentralized exchanges and more people are using them over centralized exchanges.

@theymos, have we lost the bitcoin core update link from the news section? It will be nice to see both are rotating like the ad slot.