To coinjoin or not?

[Mobber]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not. All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while. I've heard arguments for coinjoining and also why not to. I plan on just holding them for a while. Opinions? Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

[1715059901]

1715059901

[1715059901]

1715059901

[hZti]

At this time there is no benefit in doing it or not doing it, since nearly all exchanges will accept any coins. In general I like the idea of coinjoin, since it will make it impossible to set regulations that will ban "bad" bitcoins, because everyone will have some small fractions of bad bitcoins. Same as you for sure had a dollar bill in your hand before that was used to buy drugs.

[LoyceV]

Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

It depends: who are you trying to hide your coins from? The exchange you bought them on?

it will make it impossible to set regulations that will ban "bad" bitcoins

There are no "bad" Bitcoins. Saying certain Bitcoins are "tainted" is an attack on Bitcoin, and it only exists if people believe it. Stop saying it, stop believing it.

[o_e_l_e_o]

All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while.

So, given that your coins were bought via a KYCed account on a centralized exchange, then it is safe to assume the exchange knows exactly how many coins you own, in which addresses you are storing them, and has linked all that information to your real name, address, and other personal information. By extension, all of this will have been shared with various blockchain analysis companies, most likely some branch of your government, and potentially a variety of third party data brokers or other interested parties who buy data from blockchain analysis companies.

So now you have to ask yourself how happy you are with all of this. Do you not care that all these entities know exactly how much bitcoin you own, exactly which addresses belong to you, will be able to track exactly any future movements, transactions, purchases, trades, etc., that you make, and potentially use this information against you in some way? If you don't care, then do nothing. If you do care, then continue reading.

Next ask yourself what coinjoining will achieve in this case. Let's say you split all your coins between multiple coinjoins, coinjoin everything thoroughly, and move all your coins back to a brand new wallet with no links to your previous addresses. This will prevent the entities above from knowing which addresses you are storing your coins on and from being able to track all your future transactions. They will still know that you own some bitcoin, but will also lose the ability to know exactly how much. Their estimates of how much you own will become less accurate as time goes on, as they won't know if you are spending or selling some of your stack.

If you continue to buy bitcoin via this KYCed account and then coinjoining it, then again they will not know where your coins are or what you do with them, but will still have the data on how much bitcoin you bought over time. If you instead choose to buy non-KYCed coins via a DEX, then they will not have this data, provided you are meticulous in keeping any non-coinjoined coins separate from your newly bought non-KYCed coins.

And of course, make sure you don't use Wasabi to do any of this, since they work hand in hand with blockchain analysis companies.

[ABCbits]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not.

Opinions?

Since you do not mention you have serious privacy concern or serious security risk if you do not protect your privacy, i do not see importance of doing CoinJoin for now.

Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

If you have some privacy concern or able to do that with good exchange rate (without high risk of scammed), it could be good idea.

And of course, make sure you don't use Wasabi to do any of this, since they work hand in hand with blockchain analysis companies.

And if OP decide to use other SPV wallet with CoinJoin feature, take note some of them have poor privacy by default (such as not using Tor).

[dkbit98]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not. All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while. I've heard arguments for coinjoining and also why not to. I plan on just holding them for a while. Opinions? Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

You can do several things to remove connection of your identity from coins you own, and coinjoin is just one of them, but you could also consider JoinMarket, and remember to improve your address management.
Coinjoin will split your coins in smaller denominations so be ready for that, and some centralized services could refuse to accept your if they suspect you are trying to hide something.
I would also consider using alternative options like Lightning Network if you run your own node, ChipMixer is great way to mix your coins, and there is privacy oriented wallet Mercury that is using Layer 2 solution.

[odolvlobo]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not. All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while. I've heard arguments for coinjoining and also why not to. I plan on just holding them for a while. Opinions? Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

So far, the exchange can only determine that whoever you sent the coins to has not yet spent them. If you did not have to register a withdrawal address, then they can at most assume that you sent them to yourself. If every withdrawal went to a different address, then they have even less information.

If you don't mind them having that information, then there is no need to coinjoin, and the time to consider coinjoin would be when you move or spend them.

[BlackHatCoiner]

it will make it impossible to set regulations that will ban "bad" bitcoins

There are no "bad" Bitcoins.

I think that's his point.

They will still know that you own some bitcoin, but will also lose the ability to know exactly how much.

They do lose the ability to make any essential, valid conclusion. Unless the KYC-ed quantity of money is greater than the total value spent after the coinjoin, it's impossible for someone who sees you mixing to point over to your outputs, and therefore impossible to acknowledge that you own anything at all.

[Mobber]

All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while.

So, given that your coins were bought via a KYCed account on a centralized exchange, then it is safe to assume the exchange knows exactly how many coins you own, in which addresses you are storing them, and has linked all that information to your real name, address, and other personal information. By extension, all of this will have been shared with various blockchain analysis companies, most likely some branch of your government, and potentially a variety of third party data brokers or other interested parties who buy data from blockchain analysis companies.

So now you have to ask yourself how happy you are with all of this. Do you not care that all these entities know exactly how much bitcoin you own, exactly which addresses belong to you, will be able to track exactly any future movements, transactions, purchases, trades, etc., that you make, and potentially use this information against you in some way? If you don't care, then do nothing. If you do care, then continue reading.

Next ask yourself what coinjoining will achieve in this case. Let's say you split all your coins between multiple coinjoins, coinjoin everything thoroughly, and move all your coins back to a brand new wallet with no links to your previous addresses. This will prevent the entities above from knowing which addresses you are storing your coins on and from being able to track all your future transactions. They will still know that you own some bitcoin, but will also lose the ability to know exactly how much. Their estimates of how much you own will become less accurate as time goes on, as they won't know if you are spending or selling some of your stack.

If you continue to buy bitcoin via this KYCed account and then coinjoining it, then again they will not know where your coins are or what you do with them, but will still have the data on how much bitcoin you bought over time. If you instead choose to buy non-KYCed coins via a DEX, then they will not have this data, provided you are meticulous in keeping any non-coinjoined coins separate from your newly bought non-KYCed coins.

And of course, make sure you don't use Wasabi to do any of this, since they work hand in hand with blockchain analysis companies.

Just curious where the "wasabi is working with chain analysis" is coming from? I've heard other people say whirlpool shares all your wallet info with there server even if you run through your own node? Which coinjoin would you recommend or would you recommend something else?

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not. All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while. I've heard arguments for coinjoining and also why not to. I plan on just holding them for a while. Opinions? Maybe I should just focus on accumulating non kyc coins?

You can do several things to remove connection of your identity from coins you own, and coinjoin is just one of them, but you could also consider JoinMarket, and remember to improve your address management.
Coinjoin will split your coins in smaller denominations so be ready for that, and some centralized services could refuse to accept your if they suspect you are trying to hide something.
I would also consider using alternative options like Lightning Network if you run your own node, ChipMixer is great way to mix your coins, and there is privacy oriented wallet Mercury that is using Layer 2 solution.

Is chipmixer on LN? What process would you recommend to gain privacy using LN?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[LoyceV]

Just curious where the "wasabi is working with chain analysis" is coming from?

Read Wasabi blacklisting update.

[hZti]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not.

Opinions?

Since you do not mention you have serious privacy concern or serious security risk if you do not protect your privacy, i do not see importance of doing CoinJoin for now.

One benefit would at least be that coin join will become way more effective if it is widely used. IF you want regulate the bitcoin market, but all coins are mixed constantly you will have a way harder time.

[PrivacyG]

Is chipmixer on LN?

No (last time I checked at least, it was not).  It is just a website offering you Mixing services.  If you want further privacy, use it through Tor with no JavaScript.  Links to the website can be found on this thread under LoyceV's posts.

You need a lot of coin management education in order to keep your privacy levels up once you mix your coins.  Particularly since your coins have a very clear, evident trace linked to your real identity.  Once you break this link, creating alternative links will be easy.  One mistake and your identity is linked back to the mixed coins.  Does anyone here have some sort of documentation on that?  Wasabi used to have a great privacy educational doc, but I can not recommend them anymore due to obvious reasons.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

[BlackHatCoiner]

(last time I checked at least, it was not).

It doesn't, although it could do.

One mistake and your identity is linked back to the mixed coins.  Does anyone here have some sort of documentation on that?

A must-to-do tactic is coin control. To link yourself and your mixed coins, you have to either spend mixed and unmixed UTXO in one transaction or via change.

ChipMixer does have some good practices, but that implies you'll use their service (which provides better mixing than a coinjoin, but trades-off self-custody): http://chipmixorflykuxu56uxy7gf5o6ggig7xru7dnihc4fm4cxqsc63e6id.onion/articles/best-practices-2021 (use Tor)

[o_e_l_e_o]

Just curious where the "wasabi is working with chain analysis" is coming from?

Their official announcements, where they said they hire a blockchain analysis company or companies, share data with them, spy on their users, and censor/blacklist users when they don't like what they find.

Which coinjoin would you recommend or would you recommend something else?

JoinMarket would be my first choice. You must run your own node for this. I would consider using Samourai/Whirlpool, but again, only via my own node. Alternatively, use ChipMixer.

What process would you recommend to gain privacy using LN?

The same as you would use for on-chain privacy. Buy coins anonymously, mix/coinjoin them for good measure, and then uses these anonymous coins to open a Lightning channel via my own node.

If you want further privacy, use it through Tor with no JavaScript.

It is only possible to use via Tor. If you are on a clearnet ChipMixer site, you are being scammed.

[Pmalek]

I'm trying to decide whether I should coinjoin my coins or not. All coins are from kyc exchange and have been in cold storage a while.

It depends. What are you planning to do with these coins in the future? Since you have already done KYC, the exchange already knows who you are and how much bitcoin you have in your address/addresses. If you are planning to send the same coins to the same exchange at one point in the future, I don't see the need for a coinjoin. If the coins will be used for other purchases or everyday spending, it makes sense to break the link and start fresh. I repeat, will the coins go back to the same exchange in the future to be swapped for fiat or some other crypto when you are happy with your profit?

At this time there is no benefit in doing it or not doing it, since nearly all exchanges will accept any coins.

Several centralized exchanges have frozen withdrawals of their clients in the past after discovering that their coins have gone through mixers or coinjoin protocols. So it's safe to say they don't like it, and we will probably see more of the same.

[barto123]

IMO, coinjoin beats no coinjoin. blockchain data is public and theoretically forever - each coinjoin adds another layer of plausible deniability.

I recommend joinmarket as you can coinjoin any amount & it's much cheaper than whirlpool if you wait for 1 sat/byte.

Most node implementations have joinmarket added by default, it's not hard to use.

if an exchange tries to block/censor you because you have coinjoin history either open lightning channel on UTXO, swap out for another UTXO or just boycott them and go elsewhere

privacy will be paramount as CBDC's come online - we are moving into a era of surveillance, not enough people understand the severity of it. Not enough people are standing up to the parasites who run this world. Bitcoin is a great tool to fight back, but you have to use the privacy tools.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I recommend joinmarket as you can coinjoin any amount & it's much cheaper than whirlpool if you wait for 1 sat/byte.

Good thing with JoinMarket is self-custody. If that isn't a concern go with ChipMixer, as it beats it in both cost and effectivity.

Which node implementation you're talking about? I know Bitcoin Core, gocoin and bcoin doesn't include/add joinmarket by default.

He probably means node OSes implementations, such as myNode, Umbrel, Raspibolt etc.

[barto123]

I recommend joinmarket as you can coinjoin any amount & it's much cheaper than whirlpool if you wait for 1 sat/byte.

Good thing with JoinMarket is self-custody. If that isn't a concern go with ChipMixer, as it beats it in both cost and effectivity.

Which node implementation you're talking about? I know Bitcoin Core, gocoin and bcoin doesn't include/add joinmarket by default.

He probably means node OSes implementations, such as myNode, Umbrel, Raspibolt etc.

yes, I like raspiblitz

[Jon_Hodl]

IMHO, every sat that you get without any KYC should go through CoinJoin to break the links between the coins past and future.

For KYC sats, I would just use coin control to send to your own wallet, and then hold it there for a while. If you're lucky enough to stack non-KYC sats, I would CoinJoin them to cold card with Sparrow's whirlpool implementation and then HODL for at least 10 years.

I think in the future, having both a KYC stack and non-KYC stack will prove to be beneficial but I would LOVE to slowly get down to nothing but non-KYC that has all been CoinJoined.

When it comes time to spend them, hopefully more people are running PayJoin so we can CoinJoin as we spend to preserve our privacy in the future.