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Question: What are you thinking? What is the better idea?
no wasting of resources
using of standard key pairs
"identified" miners (special forum rank + working email account + public key)
only one p2pool
guarantor, guaranteed money, turnover fees, interest and this "right of money" use can be freely traded
cloud computing with remainder computing power
The one who is loyal to the net and reliable (identified by key pair) should get more to do with bigger possibility from the network
The existing coins (Bitcoin, Namecoin, Litecoin, ...) can be changed one to one into greencoins

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ifinta
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December 11, 2011, 08:52:56 AM
 #1

Greencoin (ZC):

   My Ideas about a better coin. I published firstly in hungarian – I will a hungarian team for a coin too Smiley - but in this thread please posts only in English (or with an English translation)
   Z = zöld (green in hungarian).
   The smallest possible unit should be named as “finta” Smiley

My translation is simple, and according to your feedback I can complete my post and the concept. Hungarian text is only the documentation of original ideas.
Green: implemented

- P2P koncepció jó... A pool-ok kényszere már nem (mármint a Bitcoin-hoz hasonló pénzekben).

- P2P conception is perfect... not like the need of "private" pools (for example in case of bitcoin and similar currencies). It can give a person (or his attacker) a too big influence.

- A pénzmennyiség korlátozása, illetve a forgalomban lévő pénz közösségi felügyelete nagyon okos gondolat.

- The limitation of the amount of money is a very clever idea, as well as the common control of money circulation.

- A namecoin-ból kellene leágazni...

- It should be derived from namecoin... Idea of namecoin is also very good.

- 1 pool legyen – és ez beépítve a rendszerbe, így elosztottan üzemelne.

- There shall be one pool built in the system, and this pool would operate distibuted (shared)(3)  - controlled through the greencoin community.

- ne legyen pazarlás. Ha számolnak a gépek, akkor maradandót számoljanak. Akár közösen.

- Shouldn't be wasting (of resources) . When computers calculate only calculate valuable, even together.

- A szerencsét – mármint ki számolhat, ellenőrizhet – másképp is lehet produkálni. Legyen P2P sorsolás – a nyertes számolhat, ellenőrizhet. A szerencse legyen súlyozott... Aki hű a nethez és megbízható (a key párja azonosítja...) annak nagyobb eséllyel adjon a hálózat feladatokat.

- The 'fortune' – who can calculate and check other calculations – can be produced in another way. E.g. P2P drawing, the winners can calculate and check.(1) The fortune should be weighted. The one who is loyal to the net and reliable (identified by key pair) should get more to do with bigger possibility from the network.

- Eme súlyozás befolyásolja a kifizetéseket. Minden block-ért járó kifizetést a rendszer minden a hálózatban (az aktuális  sorsolásban) résztvevő tag között osszon szét, de persze díjjazza a számításért járó plusz kellemetlenségeket (gépterheltség, …) illetve a hűséget, megbízhatóságot.

- This weighting can also influences payouts. The payout for every block should be distributed among  members participating in the network (in the actual drawing) but also should award the extra inconvenience of calculating (i.e. loaded computer) plus the loyality and reliability.

- A számítás legyen elvégezhető egy viszonlag átlagos hardware-en (legyen az CPU/FPGA/GPU/...) elfogdható idő alatt... A difficulty lehet 1 – nem kell változzon - senkit sem érdekel tovább...

- Calculation should be performed even on a simple hardwer (be the CPU/FPGA/GPU/... below a time with an acceptable last of hw and environment) Difficulty can be 1 – shouldn't be changed – nobody interested more about it.

- Ne a daemon generálja, tárolja a private-public key párokat. Az jöhessen egy szabványos felületről, mint pl. az e-mail aláírásoknál használatos gpg. Így az akár trusted is lehet, különböző szintekben. Vagy anonym. Nem a net határozza meg – hanem a felhasználó maga. A súlyozásban (megbízható) azonban ez szerepet játszhat. Külső érdeklődők (pl. bankok, kormnyok, intézetek...) is tudják így a pénz származását vizsgálni, kifizetést ezáltal elfogadni/elutasítani. Persze ez ne akadályozza meg azt, hogy a pénz időnként – mint bármilyen más pénzt/értéket is a világon – időnként ne a nyilvánosság kizárásával adhassák ki az emberek.

- Daemon shouldn't generate and store private-pubic key pairs. This could come from a standard platform, like gpg – which is used by e-mail signature. This can be trusted in different levels. Or anonym. The user determines not the network.(2) It can have also role in the weighting.  External user (banks, government) can also audit the origin of the money, and according to that accept/refuse payment. But this shouldn't block that money  can be payed without publicity, as other money/value in the world.(2)

- Legyen minimum forgalmi díj, de ne akadályozza a micro-payement-eket. Az aktuális forgalmi díjat a kiszámító határozhatja meg előre – és a díj mértéke szóljon bele a sorsolási súlyozásba – minél magasabb a forgalmi díj, annál alacsonyabb legyen a súlyozás. (pl. 10 kisorsolt legyen, és a legalacsonyabb díjszabású kapja a munkát.)

- Only minimum turnover fee should exist, but do not block micro-payments. The actual turnover fee can be decided by the calculator in avance, and the rate of fee should change the weigthing of drawing. The higher the turnover fee is the smaller is the weighting (i.e. 10 drawn should be, and who offers the smallest fee – get the job.)

- Legyen “garantált” értéke. A kifizetések legyenek addig “képzetesek”, amíg valaki a rendszerbe nem pumpál már létező fizetőeszközön (ez lehessen meglévő, “történelmi” coin, mint pl. bitcoin, namecoin, …) keresztül egyfajta garanciát – de ezzel a pénz váljon a rendszerben használhatóvá, és a rendszer forgalmi díjainak egy részét ez a “garanciavállaló” kapja az általa “garantált” pénzek után. A pénzek e fajta “használati joga” legyen szabadon kereskedhető.

- It should be guaranteed value. Payout should be 'imaginary' while anybody pump guarantee in the system beyond existing payments (it can be historical coin like bitcoin, namecoin...) With this action the money can be usable in the system, and part the turnover fee should go to this guarantor after the guaranteed money. This right of money use can be freely traded.

- Aki a számláján pénzt tartogat, fizessen egyfajta kamatot a garantálónak.

- If someone hold money on his account without using it, must pay an interest to the guarantor.

- A kifizetett forgalmi díjak és a kamatok már garantáltak – a “garantáló” a forgalmazott érintett pénzek “garantálója” lesz automatikusan.

- Payed turnover fees and the interest are already guaranteed – the guarantee would be automaticaly the guarantor of circulated affected money.

- Meglévő coin-ok közül a Bitcoin, Namecoin, Litecoin, ... - átválthatóak legyenek  egy az egyben – de ezzel számolni kell az össz pénzmennyiség meghatározásakor, és foglalni kell erre az induláskor megfelelő pénzmennyiséget. Ezen pénzek garantáltak lesznek már az átváltás után. (Kritériumok: induláskor 0 (vagy elhanyagolható) premining, elérhető szabad forráskód, korlátozott pénzmennyiség és így kiszámíthatóság.)

- The existing coins (Bitcoin, Namecoin, Litecoin) can be changed one to one into greencoins – but should be calculating with this when the total amount of money is defined, and it should be reserved at the beginning. These money would be guaranteed after change. (Criteria (what coins may be convertible) – at the beginning 0 (or irrelevant) premining, achievable free source code, limited amount of money, so it can be calculated in advance)

- Nincs premining – kivéve a fenti coin-ok átválthatóságát biztosító alapot. A net publikusan meg kell hirdetve legyen az indítását megelőző hónap 1 napjával úgy, hogy eme post-ra egy reply születik. Úgyanez érvényes egy tesztnet indulására is, az éles indítást megelőző 3. 12. hónap 1 napjával.

- No premining – except above mentioned situation when coin change. Net should be public and has to be announced on the first day of previous month of launching, by a reply on this post. This is valid also for a test-net start,  from the first day of 3rd month prior the real start.

*************************************************************************************************************

Links to very relevant and Interesting posts - to remember:

Have you looked into OpenTransactions ...
I think, it is a must, that the miners personally identified. Think an history of bitcoin - and a possible future:
...
And about some possible identification attribute of a person (or a computer):
...
I think not a 100% identifying - I am engineer and not a Mathematicians Wink - me enough for example the last in the list...
...
How is loyalty and reliability determined?
"gavinandresen merged 5 commits into bitcoin:master from sipa:dumpprivkey 9 days ago"

(1) - I think the current VOTING in Bitcoin system (with the current "difficulty"-system) can be a good compromise - but the voting must be scheduled at a low and fixed frequence with a new communication protocol.  
...
The blockchain is based on VOTING.  However in an anonymous network you can't limit someone to one person is one vote so Bitcoin doesn't try.  Instead it makes it one hash = one vote.  Thus the identity of the person producing the hash isn't necessary.
and
Satoshi' paper (only the first paragraph "Abstract") criticism:
...
"Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if
 a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending."

- A trusted third party (in greencoin) isn't required for prevent double-spending, it is required
to prevent 50%+1 attack. The trusted third party should be the community
of users/miners/guests/moderators of greencoin... The community of our money.

"The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed,
but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power."

- The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed,
but proof that it came from the largest pool of trusted miners. "power" is
a possible means of a "centralised authority" - please, do not use it for prevent double-spending Smiley

"The network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on
a best effort basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will,
accepting the longest proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone."

- "best effort" = "power" => The network should be redesign too.

(2)
Info from github:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/574
"gavinandresen merged 5 commits into bitcoin:master from sipa:dumpprivkey 9 days ago
...
Dumpprivkey

I was thinking about a new coin: Solv3Coin

What is it?

It's "cloud computing power" that can be hired by buying the coins.
Part of the networkstrenght is used for transactions, another part for calculations (like simulations, etc)

By buying Solv3Coins, you buy computing power on the network anonymously (1 coin = x flops, where x has to be defined).
The computing power is what it gets it's value from.

The clients (GPU / CPU / Asic) form the largest cloud computing network in the world!

I think it can use the basics of the classic Bitcoin network and we need real smart people to get the second part working: cloud computing

Your thoughts?
It is very interesting. I have Ideas (greencoin) to use less computing power for mining - the remainder 95% is usable for a "cloud". It isn't implemented yet. It is just in a phase "brainstorming".
....
(3)
I just try p2pool...
...
2012-01-13 07:28:28.208500 Average time between blocks: 0.87 days
2012-01-13 07:28:28.209375 Pool stales: 10% Own: 22±9% Own efficiency: 87±10%
2012-01-13 07:28:28.986495 New work for worker! Share difficulty: 144.975156 Payout if block: 0.380885 BTC Total block value: 50.035421 BTC including 13 transactions
2012-01-13 07:28:31.215252 Pool: 70741MH/s in 17323 shares (11959/17327 verified) Recent: 2.53% >1790MH/s Shares: 79 (16 orphan, 0 dead) Peers: 10
...
It is a very clever concept, and seems to be a very good implementation yet.

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December 11, 2011, 09:02:00 AM
 #2

would you please wirte in english or go to a local subforum?

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 11, 2011, 09:14:03 AM
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I plan to translate it in english and german...

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December 11, 2011, 09:15:47 AM
 #4

Where is the hungarian subforum?

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ifinta
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December 11, 2011, 09:17:11 AM
 #5

I think, the Idee is international... And it will be transalted - I need some time...

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December 11, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
 #6

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=20301.0

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 11, 2011, 12:48:54 PM
 #7


Thank You.

I think, this post is an international thing - I posted it hungarian, becose I documented, what I wanted to say...
I will it translate - but I need some time, maybe a week.

I don't post it yet in local-hungarian topic - I think this is a better place for a such concept.

How much patience you have for a translation? What time I could have?



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December 11, 2011, 12:51:00 PM
 #8

I don't post it yet in local-hungarian topic - I think this is a better place for a such concept.
yes but only if people understand you...

also im not interested in another bitcoin clone with super nice and "innovative" features.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 11, 2011, 03:14:57 PM
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I don't post it yet in local-hungarian topic - I think this is a better place for a such concept.
yes but only if people understand you...

also im not interested in another bitcoin clone with super nice and "innovative" features.

Thanks.

But I hope it will be interresting for rest of the world Smiley

I start the translation in my next post.


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December 11, 2011, 03:51:44 PM
 #10

But I hope it will be interresting for rest of the world Smiley

I start the translation in my next post.
from what google translate can tell me, i do not like your coin. it seems like a SCAMcoin to me. and some of your goals are not possible at all. Google translate might have failed me, im looking forward to your translation.

sorry dude, it was to to be rude.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 11, 2011, 07:14:41 PM
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But I hope it will be interresting for rest of the world Smiley

I start the translation in my next post.
from what google translate can tell me, i do not like your coin. it seems like a SCAMcoin to me. and some of your goals are not possible at all. Google translate might have failed me, im looking forward to your translation.

sorry dude, it was to to be rude.

SCAMcoin? This?  Huh

No - this is not a SCAM. But it is an idea from me, based what I found about environmental pollutant-coins in last year.  Roll Eyes
It's time to change it.  Wink

I made the translation - see original post - ready to discuss and implement.  Cool

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December 11, 2011, 07:31:15 PM
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Quote
- Only one pool needed built in the system, and pool would operate distibuted (shared).
will not work on large scale

- No premining – except above mentioned situation when coin change . Net should be public ly announced on the first day of previous month of launching, by replying on my post. This is valid also for a test-net start,  but first day of 3rd month before sharp start.
sorry but smells like scam, to me.

Quote
- Shouldn't be wasting (of resources) . When computers calculate only calculate valuable, even together.
don't know what this means... but bitcoin is not wasting resources.

Quote
- The 'fortune' – who can calculate and control – can be produced in another way. E.g. P2P drawing, the winner can calculate and control. The fortune should be weighted. Who is loyal to the net and reliable (identified by key pair) can get higher part from the network.
so you are saying someone should have control over the network?

Quote
- P2P conception is perfect... The pressure of pools are not. (in currently coin chain's...)
there are not pressure from the pools, what are you talking about?

i don't understand most of you concerns... and not to be rude, but your english sucks more then mine, it is difficult to understand you.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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December 11, 2011, 10:21:52 PM
 #13

Hungarian text is only the documentation of original ideas.

Just tell us how this differs from BitCoin clearly and in as few words as possible.

You imply there is some element of central control in this. We don't trust any form of central control and BitCoin carefully avoids it.
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December 11, 2011, 10:55:03 PM
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I can't say I understand all of your statements completely, but I do see things I rather like. Thank you for making an effort to communicate with someone like me who only has a couple of languages and nothing like Hungarian  Smiley

There don't seem to be many people on this forum prepared to reason outside the Bitcoin paradigm. The request to "Just tell us how this differs from BitCoin clearly and in as few words as possible" illustrates the mindset you are most likely to encounter, many folks actually seem to want to treat the current Bitcoin framework as being a desirable end state.

I'm not suggesting that you are casting your pearls before swine, please continue to refine and share your ideas. Do not take the language criticism seriously, many of these folks can't reason in the king's english either  Wink

"Bitcoins are for the most part as useless as they ever were."
 - Edward50
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December 12, 2011, 04:09:57 AM
 #15

following

Sorry El Cabron, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum.
Trolling
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622250.msg7030081#msg7030081
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December 12, 2011, 04:13:00 AM
 #16

Thank you for your ideas with this!  Good luck!

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December 13, 2011, 02:25:29 AM
 #17

I don't follow how this is all that "green" or different from existing coins.

CampBX for buying BTCs, Coinbase for selling BTCs or Vircurex or Cryptsy for trading alternate cryptocurrencies like DOGEs

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December 13, 2011, 03:33:04 AM
 #18

Daemon shouldn't generate and store private-pubic key pairs. This could come from a standard platform, like gpg

Have you looked into OpenTransactions? Regardless, I've often wondered why Satoshi reinvented so many wheels. Why not use GPG for cryptography, key exchange and trust models and not store the block chain in a git repository.

OpenTransactions? - yes, I looked into, but only after your post Smiley Thank you for this hint. It is really interesting. If it exists widely used and accepted standards (gpg, bittorrent or similar, ... and maybe OpenTransaction) for a job - I will prefer it. Git repository for a chain? With some different branch, and then with merge? This seems to be interesting too.



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December 13, 2011, 03:55:50 AM
 #19

Thank you for posts, hints.
I did some corrections in translation.
And I began to translate it to German (not yet published).

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December 13, 2011, 05:32:53 AM
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- Shouldn't be wasting (of resources) . When computers calculate only calculate valuable, even together.
...
The 'fortune' – who can calculate and check other calculations – can be produced in another way. E.g. P2P drawing, the winners can calculate and check. The fortune should be weighted. The one who is loyal to the net and reliable (identified by key pair) should get more to do with bigger possibility from the network.

By 'drawing' - you mean some sort of lottery amongst participants?
If so - how does this make the system less wasteful of resources?
Unless you have some central authority making sure each 'person' only creates a limited number of network nodes - then the end result will *still* just be that people create massive farms of computer systems which act as a *vast* number of nodes.

Instead of 1 person having a few mining machines crunching numbers - that one person will have millions/billions of 'virtual' nodes entering the lottery and so they'll still use a lot of electricity and hardware. 

Please explain how you intend to make the system not waste resources?


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