RESOLVED

[GekkeBelg]

Hello,

Today is one of the worst days of my life. I cannot believe what Wintomato.com have done to me today. The simply took away my balance of 1.791 BTC (about 29K USD worth) with some rediculous reason mentioned. Let me explain the situation:

I decided to join Wintomato.com in December 2021. I liked their design and their many livebetting options and started to bet live on my favourite sport NBA. I did not go quite well as I was losing way more than winning, but okay that is simply how it can go in sports betting. I continued betting on NBA during winter and spring, and then also started betting a lot on MLB during the summer. All in all, from December 2021 till this week I have probably placed about about 2000 bets (all on NBA and MLB, never on any shady leagues or sports) and lost a shitload. I remember I was down about 80K in USD at some point back in the summer. Then, in the last couple months it slowly went a bit better and especially the last 2 weeks I was on a roll, winning a lot of bets on NBA. So right now I was at the point of being "only" about 30K USD in the minus and I was quite happy that finally I was getting out of the hole I was in before. So since my balance got a little high (1.791 BTC) I decided to request a withdrawal of 0.4 BTC on Tuesday. Business as usual I was expecting, because the previous deposits and withdrawals (about 50 in total)  all went smooth and fairly fast, but this time the next day I saw it was rejected and then I saw a message saying I needed to do KYC and send in a selfie with my passport and a note with some text next to my head. Okay, fine, so I sent it. And then they kept silent for 2 days. The new withdrawal I submitted kept pending and was never processed and then today I log in to my account and suddenly my balance is set to all zero's......I was shocked and first I thought it must have been hacked or some kind of mistake and then I read the text they write saying they cancelled several bets because of some rediculous rule that I am "value betting"?
So I check my betting history and see all kind of bets that are now suddenly cancelled in retrospect. Surprise, surprise, only winning bets are cancelled and never losing bets....
It is completely rediculous that they think they can just randomly decide to cancel bets in hindsight. If this is fair then they can basically do anything they want to any customer whenever they like.....this is a totally unfair unethical practice!
As I said, I have been an active customer there for 11 months and always used the same betting style. I am not doing value betting, whatever that may be. I simply watch the NBA and MLB games and when I feel like a team is going to win I place the bet, just like any other gambler would do. And why was my betting style never a problem when I was losing so much? And now one good run is suddenly not acceptable for them? Even when I am in a big minus altogether over the lifetime of my account, they simply decide to steal my own money. If I am doing "value betting" for 11 months over a sample of about 2000 bets in total, how can it be that I am not even in the plus? How much bigger proof do they need that this is not "value betting"?

I am FLABBERGASTED by this decision. I knew Wintomato does not have a great reputation but because they treated me well for the past 11 months I thought they would be fair. Obviously I will never bet with them anymore and I would strongly advice anyone reading this not to open an account there.
They only welcome people who keep on losing forever, if you go on even a small run they will simply confiscate your funds.

And as rediculous as their rule is, it is not even listed in their general T&C: https://wintomato.com/en/terms-and-conditions
After a lot of looking around I eventually found out it's sneakily hidden somewhere in their Sports Rules right in between rules about weather abandonments etc, which is very shady and not a place where you can expect customers to look for such a rule. But that is not even the point, the point is that this is a very widely interpretable rule and basically gives them freedom to take away any winnings they like in hindsight for the full period of a month.

IF they're gonna void bets then they have to void ALL my bets. Not just the winnings ones and not just the recent ones. Then please void all of my bets since I joined and in that case I would be getting even a lot more back than my balance was because I was still in minus. But ofcourse.....they decide that when I was losing I was placing normal bets and when I go on a small winning run, then those are suddenly "value bets". And of that recent period, of course the losers were fair losers, only the winning bets were the value bets! Haha, if I was not hurting so much right now, it would even be laughable!

In hindsight, there was one alarming thing that happened to me back in September, when I was betting on an MLB game and won a bet with odds of 8 and they decided to randomly take away 9K USD worth of winnings because "the odd was too high" even though their sports betting provider settled the bet as normally won and all other books had completely comparable odds. But after a few days of discussion they decided to give me back this 9K they took away so I assumed they were reasonable people after all.
But now, 2 months later, this happened.....I hope Wintomato can still come to their senses and realize that this is completely bullshit and unethical.

Wintomato, I promise you it's better in the long run to be ethical and fair and build up a good reputation, like for example Sportsbet or Stake have done. This pays off much more in the long run than short term stealing will bring you. Now if you do not fix this issue you will have lasting reputation damage. Think hard about this!

Here are the screenshots of my account:
Confiscation:


Randomly cancelled bets in hindsight:








A screenshot of my account balance 2 days ago before the confiscation:


And here proof that I was already betting at Wintomato from December 2021:

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

Hello,

Today is one of the worst days of my life. I cannot believe what Wintomato.com have done to me today. The simply took away my balance of 1.791 BTC (about 29K USD worth) with some rediculous reason mentioned. Let me explain the situation:

I decided to join Wintomato.com in December 2021. I liked their design and their many livebetting options and started to bet live on my favourite sport NBA. I did not go quite well as I was losing way more than winning, but okay that is simply how it can go in sports betting. I continued betting on NBA during winter and spring, and then also started betting a lot on MLB during the summer. All in all, from December 2021 till this week I have probably placed about about 2000 bets (all on NBA and MLB, never on any shady leagues or sports) and lost a shitload. I remember I was down about 80K in USD at some point back in the summer. Then, in the last couple months it slowly went a bit better and especially the last 2 weeks I was on a roll, winning a lot of bets on NBA. So right now I was at the point of being "only" about 30K USD in the minus and I was quite happy that finally I was getting out of the hole I was in before. So since my balance got a little high (1.791 BTC) I decided to request a withdrawal of 0.4 BTC on Tuesday. Business as usual I was expecting, because the previous deposits and withdrawals (about 50 in total)  all went smooth and fairly fast, but this time the next day I saw it was rejected and then I saw a message saying I needed to do KYC and send in a selfie with my passport and a note with some text next to my head. Okay, fine, so I sent it. And then they kept silent for 2 days. The new withdrawal I submitted kept pending and was never processed and then today I log in to my account and suddenly my balance is set to all zero's......I was shocked and first I thought it must have been hacked or some kind of mistake and then I read the text they write saying they cancelled several bets because of some rediculous rule that I am "value betting"?
So I check my betting history and see all kind of bets that are now suddenly cancelled in retrospect. Surprise, surprise, only winning bets are cancelled and never losing bets....

This is the highest form of injustice, and a modern way of scaming, if I must say, because i see no reason why a casino should liquidates a users winning games of almost $29,000 after requesting for KYC and successfully completed by that user. But however, this is still an allegation until proven otherwise, and luckily we have representatives of " Wintomato" on this forum, of which I will like to ask what does "Wintomato" has to say about this allegations.?

Because with all due respect, O.P has done nothing wrong from explanation given above, and should be given back his/her money in full @  $29,000,  i.e if Wintomato care about its reputation

[BitMaxz]

They already have scam accusations against them and also active flags that have never been solved.
So do not expect that your issue will be solved it's sad that after you sent a KYC or documents to them they confiscated your funds without a valid reason terms and privacy policies from them can be change anytime that can be also used to fool individual users if any users withdraw a big amount? That's an obvious scam they only made their Casino to scam.

Don't ever play again at a non-reputable Casino just like this. Most of the trusted casinos here on the forum are those that have active and consistently running a campaigns and old Casinos with high trust scores.

[Plaguedeath]

Sad to hear your experience against this casino,

Just like above user mentioned there's an accusation that hasn't been resolved and they have active type 1 flag. But since the victim didn't online after he create an accusation, this casino give an excuse if the accusation is fake. So I hope you shouldn't leave this forum until your case has been resolved, although they seems not really active in this forum again.

I will leave negative feedback to warn other users.

Hello again !

And still you believe that he is organic user?

This guy has never come online after the fake accusations;



And due to his allegations we have red flag on our thread that' not fair !

[zmadah]

THey ve done like scam to me.
They re Really big scam.
I betted 250 usd and after I won I expected 290 usd but they pay me 214 usd lol that s not even my base bet.
How can you win a bet on sport and don't even get your base bet after winning :O

[wintomato]

Hello,

This player tries to show himself as victim but we are victims in reality: last month 1.2 BTC were withdrawn by him without a single deposit:

All won by value betting activities which is restricted in any gambling platform and is subject for confiscation; Please have in mind that we did not cut balance but cancel the bet slips which were won by these actions;

We with our sports betting provider checked the profile of this user played during the last month;

As a result, on the ground of value betting activities the following bets slips id were canceled:

2206646772934250525
2206630708485693737
2206630142808305965
2206308726162469114
2206283993064808496
2206282279226061162
2205567151128055873
2205555267494617147
2205237284406694064
2204879879005147423
2204828191783264705
2204511227781190263
2204503841376973085
2204029261952721044

https://wintomato.com/en/news/sports-terms-and-conditions

12.2.1 Within one month we reserve the right to cancel bets slips if the user has been spotted doing permanent value betting activities;
*** A value bet is simply a bet where the likelihood of a given outcome is higher than what the odds offered reflect. This means that the expected return is statistically positive. Value betting, therefore, means betting only when your chances of winning are higher than the bookmaker estimated.

Wintomato – Risk Management Department

[wintomato]

We were warned by sport RMG team about your action but since you had long betting history we did not take actions, unfortunately later we audited your bets and 90% were value bets; And you already could withdraw solid amount;


You were restricted several times by sports betting provider;
So don't mislead people; 

[wintomato]

We gambling providers reserve right to cancel Bet Slips when odds are deviated from the normal coefficient  there is nothing unusual;

And we restrict the user completely if one is engaged in value betting system: hutting for buggy bets;

We canceled the following bets because all of them were value value bets;

And you were warned several times about this;

[MegaAkker]

Wow this is pretty shocking to me. I would have expected better from a casino/bookmaker which is already in the business for 2 years. I think this could cause lasting reputation damage if you don't solve this Wintomato! People will not trust you anymore!

[LEVSKI7]

this is insane nonsense written by wintomoto.from a legal and legal point of view the player can make whatever bets he wants.that is, he will be 100 percent convicted in a court case.under which laws the user is not allowed to play value bets.c

[LEVSKI7]

this is a large amount. if they don't pay to get a lawyer.wintomato will be fined and forced to pay a larger amount as well.

[coin-investor]

And I was warned several times?? Can you show me proof of this? I cannot remember a single warning! Show me!

Well OP is daring you to show proof that you did warn him and you use the word several times, if OP is very careful with his account he will take heed of the warning but he claimed that he did not receive any, with this statement the burden is on you to show that you really warned him, or this will be another reference of you being a bad casino to play with if Wintomato cannot show one better create another flag pointing to this thread.

[rokuen]

I got curious and compared odds on the last two cancelled bets at wintomato and bet365 (the world's leading bookmaker).
OP bet 2k on Chicago Bulls at 15:10 with 2.52 odds, while bet365 odds ranged between 2.6-2.65.
Another bet 4k on Indiana Pacers at 8:1 with 1.24 odds, while bet365 odds were 1.2-1.27.

So yes, OP's bets are fine, it's the bookie with lame excuses trying to steal the winnings.

https://i.ibb.co/w0J0MmW/chicago-bulls-odds.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/QfFy3QX/pacers-odds.jpg

Anyone can check odds for that matches using betsapi.com free service.


Since we are talking about a lot of money, it is worth consulting with lawyers. Personally, I can not advise anyone, but I heard that LMS Advocaten helped in similar cases with casinos registered in Curaçao.

[rokuen]

But thanks for the betsapi.com tip! For how long in the past does this service go? It would be handy for me to use as proof during a possible court case.

I've been using them for years, I'm sure you can find bet365 odds on all your matches. You just need to login.


Yeah, I know, when a bookie starts talking about value betting and how they only allow recreational bets, that's total bs. If they don't like the players' actions, they can cut the limits, but they have to pay out all the winnings 

[bitbollo]

@wintomato
Is it possible to know with what criterion the "value bets" are counted?
what does the bookmaker do to realize this data? what algorithm does it use?
for example, if the same odds occur on betfair.com (exchange markets), also in this case we can speak of value bets (regardless given that the odds are still wrong by the bookmaker??)

[elbill]

@wintomato
Is it possible to know with what criterion the "value bets" are counted?
what does the bookmaker do to realize this data? what algorithm does it use?
for example, if the same odds occur on betfair.com (exchange markets), also in this case we can speak of value bets (regardless given that the odds are still wrong by the bookmaker??)

If you are lucky and end a month winning more than you lose for them it is "value bets" and they don't pay you, it's as simple as that.

[Solosanz]

And we restrict the user completely if one is engaged in value betting system: hutting for buggy bets;

The first question is why you're not fix the odds first and let the gamblers to bet on such buggy bets? you're the reason why the gamblers can bet in that match, any gamblers will try to find a better odds among the other bookies. You're just make a rules that want the gamblers to lose and you're don't want to see them to win, I don't think it's make any sense to have this kind rules.

I don't think the gambler is wrong if they're just looking for better odds, as long as they're not using any such tools or break the other rules they're not wrong.

https://wintomato.com/en/news/sports-terms-and-conditions

12.2.1 Within one month we reserve the right to cancel bets slips if the user has been spotted doing permanent value betting activities;
*** A value bet is simply a bet where the likelihood of a given outcome is higher than what the odds offered reflect. This means that the expected return is statistically positive. Value betting, therefore, means betting only when your chances of winning are higher than the bookmaker estimated.

Wintomato – Risk Management Department

[wintomato]

This is the communication mail with him on 17th of September 2022, during this time we already warned him about our suspicions and but did not take radical actions, however possible consequences were clearly stated and T&C were referred;

[Pmalek]

We were warned by sport RMG team about your action but since you had long betting history we did not take actions, unfortunately later we audited your bets and 90% were value bets; And you already could withdraw solid amount;

Can you show us some proof about the warnings your received about the mentioned player by sport RMG to confirm that part of the story? Remove any sensitive and identifiable data, especially names, addresses etc.? Also, when were you warned about the activities? Was it during the period while the player was losing or did the warning arrive when he started winning a bit?

I know what value bets are. Other bookies ban and limit players who partake in such activities, so they aren't exactly "bet for fun" type of activities. They could be considered a professional way of betting that isn't welcome at casinos. However, value betting is profitable long-term. If it's true that this particular player has a loss of $30k overall, how can he be value betting? Where is the logic in that? Are you saying that he was value betting even when he was losing? If he is now in a minus of $30k, he was probably down over $50k at one point in time since he mentioned that he started a positive streak. 

Regarding your Sports Terms and Conditions, I saw the link you posted, but that link is nowhere to be found on the main page of your casino. The landing page only shows the general T&C, not the one for sports. Walk me through the process of accessing your Sports Terms and Conditions from Wintomatos' main page please?

And you were warned several times about this;

Can you mention how and show us a few of those warnings you sent to the player?

This is the communication mail with him on 17th of September 2022, during this time we already warned him about our suspicions and but did not take radical actions, however possible consequences were clearly stated and T&C were referred;

OK, this seems like a valid warning. @GekkeBelg, any comments?

[Plaguedeath]

Regarding your Sports Terms and Conditions, I saw the link you posted, but that link is nowhere to be found on the main page of your casino. The landing page only shows the general T&C, not the one for sports. Walk me through the process of accessing your Sports Terms and Conditions from Wintomatos' main page please?

You can check by clicking the general terms and conditions, then look on the 12.13 rules, it's where they mention the sports betting terms and conditions. I think it's tricky and they want to hide it from their gamblers, they wouldn't aware if this casino has a separate rules for sports since they only write the general terms and conditions. Unlike the other casino that mention their sports terms and conditions on their main page.

12.13. In-depth explanation of our sports betting rules is on the separate page: SPORTS BETTING RULES

13.         Communications and Notices